Application installation advice needed
 

Right, because many people have suggested it, I'm now working on a tutorial telling people how to find and install applications on their N800.

Searching the forums here has helped a lot, but there are still some issues that I just can't find straight down-to-earth answers to, and need help.

1. Why are so many of the applications listed in the Maemo Downloads section missing their "install now" links? Is it very difficult to create one?

2. Can all .deb files be installed on the N800? (apologies if this seems terribly naive, but most of my computing experience is on Symbian, Windows and the ZX Spectrum).

3. Why can't I get Nethack to work on my N800? The game installs without any error messages, and I wanted to use it as an example in the tutorial of downloading direct from a developer's site, but when I click on its name in the extras menu it does absolutely nothing. I'm using the newer firmware by the way, the one that includes Skype.

4. Is an application catalogue in the application manager the same thing as a repository? (I'm guessing it is, but I want to be sure.)

5. If a catalogue goes bad, why doesn't the application manager tell me which one is bad instead of forcing me to try disabling all of the catalogues one by one? Surely the name of any broken links could be displayed on the screen?

6. Is there any danger in adding catalogues to the application manager? Could they be distributing malware?

That's all I can think of for the moment, all answers appreciated.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

1) A lot of stuff was moved over from the wiki, + it's extra work to create one, + it relies on the software being in a repository.

2) No. Ones from Debian for x86 machines won't install, for example. *_armel.deb might work, but generally the deb will need to be Maemo-specific. Certainly to show up and be installed in the Application Manager normally, a set of criteria need to be met.

3) No idea. Contact the Nethack port maintainer?

4) yes.


5) See Tools > Log...

6) Yes & yes.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Thanks for the reply aflegg!

Just out of interest, why is a repository compulsory? What's wrong with a direct download of an installation file?


Right, so how do you tell if a .deb file is intended for use on Maemo? Does it always say "maemo", or are there other terms used?


I mentioned it largely because this is the example maemo.org use as well, so I expected it to work. :-) Ah well...


Ah, right, I see now. Does it always say which repository was inaccessible, or is it difficult to interpret?


I presume the repositories included as default on the tablet are screened for malware, but are the repositories listed on maemo.org also screened at all? Or the software listed in the download section?

I just want to get some idea of what's risky and what isn't.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

If anyone can answer my follow-up questions, it would really really help me get the tutorial done. This was the most requested topic for a tutorial by people on here, hopefully someone on here can help me with this.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

.deb is a file format, nothing more. It originated in the Debian Linux project. Maemo is based on an ARM version of Debian Linux, and takes advantage of the .deb format.

It allows multiple files to be packaged together with metadata such as a list of files, descriptions, and (very importantly) dependencies.

If a .deb file says "in order to install me, you need to also get packages A, B, and C," that allows an installation program to fetch the needed dependencies and install them as well.

Some of those dependencies may be libraries or programs that end users should never see or even know about.

In order for dependency management to work, the related files have to be stored in some standard place and in a standard way. Voila: You have a repository.

The .deb format has been around for a long time, and is used by many different Linux distributions on many different platforms. You can't mix and match files indiscriminately. You're likely to get into trouble if you mix and match different releases, such as Maemo's mistral and bora, or Ubuntu's Feisty Fawn and Gutsy Gibbon, or Debian's sarge and etch.

By convention, there are clues in the filenames, but you don't have to know about that, because the repositories and package managers protect you from those ugly details.

The .install file's format and purpose is documented here:

https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/pr...repository.txt

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Thank you yelvington!

Ahaa... I see. So repositories are basically a way of packaging everything you need for installation together in one place.

From what you say, would it be fair for the tutorial to state that non-technical people should only install internet tablet software from a repository?

This brings up the other point: I'd want the tutorial to have something about the relative risks of different repositories, but I can't find any information on this subject. I don't want newbies to install software without being aware of the risks of malware.


That text file makes it look extremely easy to create an install file.

Presumably the only real reason for not having an install file is if an app isn't in a repository?

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

The installation file is just a shorthand way of adding a repository (if it's not already there), doing an 'update' (i.e. downloading the list of applications from the repository), and activating the application manager to install the application you wanted.

Try downloading an installation link from your desktop browser, then look at it with a text editor or something. It's basically just a repository URL.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

I got my copy straight from here:

http://n770galaxy.blogspot.com/

No repository, just download and install. You might want to uninstall your current version first and it would probably be a good idea to do a thorough readup on the posts in the blog, but this version works on my N800 and has always worked on i--The quantum mechanic hits!

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Thanks for all the further replies! :)

I did get it from there, and it didn't work.

I actually tried to use that as an example of a non-repo install but obviously there's something preventing it from working. :(

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

You could try to have a peek at /home/user/.nethackdir/ ; maybe some .lock file is jamming you up.

I can assure you Nethack works fine on my N800. For obvious reasons, I am not running the latest firmware however.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Thanks for the help but if it requires that sort of action I don't think it's a good example for newbies, which is what the tutorials are all about.

Is there some major disadvantage to running the latest firmware?

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Agree, not a good choice for newbies, nethack. Mine also failed. FYI, there is a thread on how to get it running in the GAMES forum (I think in Games). Search by "Nethack". Someone explained how to run it by using xterm to fix the files first.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

I only really picked it because it seemed to have been in development for a while (so you'd think fewer bugs), and maemo.org also uses it as an example of installing a game without an install link. Ah well... :)

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

This is the suggestion I got from the forum at the site. I agree that if you don't know what that means, you probably might forego at trying to get Nethack running on your tablet.

Who knows? It seems to be something that distinguishes your tablet from mine, but there are probably (most likely) many other distinctions.

I personally never installed the latest firmware, the Firmware-From-Hell as I like to call it, because it can (and will!) destroy hardware on your tablet (c.q. memory cards). I don't know about you, but that sort of thing tends to turn me off. If you installed that firmware, I suggest you apply Nokia's patch as soon as possible. It's out now.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

FWIW, I've used the latest software until today without any problems whatsoever. But then I've used only a 1GB Kingston card in the external slot, which seems to be a card not affected by the problem (it _is_ after all a problem that only occurs with cards not up to standards). If you don't run into the SD card problem then the latest (before today) firmware upgrade is very good. And as of today the SD card problem should hopefully be solved for everybody too.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

I don't think it's necessary to tell new users to only use repositories and not .deb files. .deb files are even easier than setting up repositories, in most cases. You just double click on them, and they install, in general. The main problem with .deb files is that there is no mechanism for telling you when they have been updated. If you used a repository and there is a new version, the Application Catalog will tell you that an update is available.

Of course, I'm talking about .deb files set up to work with N800s or N770s.

A tutorial on how to install programs is a great idea. It would be good to include tips on how to solve dependency problems. (My solution, which worked great for me, was to install everything under the sun, skipping programs that wouldn't install. By the time I got to the end of the list, my earlier dependency problems had gone away, because I had automatically added the necessary repositories.)

You might also mention Red and Blue Pill mode.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

The second problem with installing a .deb file directly is that there's no automatic dependency resolving, or at least not as smoothly as when installing from a repository. If you install 'a' from a repository and it depends on 'b' and 'c', then 'b' and 'c' will be downloaded automatically (and also whatever additional packages 'b' and 'c' depend on) as needed. If a .deb package needs additional .debs then you'll have to sort that out by yourself (if any of those are available from a repository then it's possible to solve that in an extra step, but unless the .dep is pretty much self-contained it can be somewhat confusing for new users.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

I created a wiki with really basic information on installing and repositories. No red pill or advanced stuff.
Please update this/add to it, so we have a good guide. Some of it is from the forums. I even think this part I quoted above could be added to it to explain dependency problems with .deb files.
take a look:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/wi...epositories%29

Where is a good place to put basic info like this? I tried the wiki, but what about making a sticky in the Newbie section of the forum.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

Earlier on in this thread I was told that you can only use .deb files which are intended for internet tablets (and your particular model of tablet and a particular firmware on that tablet), and even if the file is correct there may be other files required in order for the .deb files to work. That's probably far too complicated for an absolute beginner.

As I found out with Nethack, even when a .deb file is clearly labelled as for the N800, and it should install and work, it can install and then not work at all.


What's an easy way for a newbie to tell if a .deb file is intended for N800s or 770s with particular firmware?


If I understand correctly, a better solution seems to be to use install links and repositories though. Installing more and more things until they start to work isn't exactly user-friendly, and some people with small or no memory card may not have the storage space for all these applications.

Bear in mind I'm aiming these tutorials at people who have zero experience of linux and zero experience of messing around under the bonnet of a computer. Anyone who owns a tablet should be able to follow these tutorials fairly clearly, and be able to do things as easily as possible.


Personally I've had no problems with memory cards so far. Perhaps I'm using different brands or sizes of card to people who have problems, or perhaps I'm doing different things with my tablet. It may be some particular combination of factors that causes problems, in fact that seems likely if they didn't spot this problem before the firmware release.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

As both an experienced Linux user familiar with the Debian package system as well as a relatively new Internet Tablet user I fully agree with the above conclusion.

Re: Application installation advice needed
 

I second. I have been using the 2007He20056, then the 2007He2007.36-2, I see only improvement on the apps I AM interested. I have a 2 G MMC from Kingston and also implemented MMCplus patch, so far, about 1 month into working, has not seen any problems yet, keep my fingers crossed. In principle, I am NOT disagree with Karel's approach Firmware-from-Hell, but with 3 OS on my possession Flash/MMC 1G/MMC 2G, I think I can, sometimes, grab the bull by its horn.

bun