Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Well maybe someone that's played with OS2008 can comment, but I thought Nokia was moving towards using "Modest Mail" in a future release:

http://modest.garage.maemo.org/

I don't think it would be any competition for Claws, but it does seem like it would be a little better :)

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I haven't tried the email client yet. Haven't even looked at it-- too busy testing other aspects...

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Eggzactly!

The new OS will behave the same on the old hardware...
Also, I have heard that the speed is bumped only for "certain" (unnamed) programs leading me to believe that the OS manages the clock.

***

Because the D-pad is tucked away I am assuming that the finger friendly improvements are meant to provide functionality when the keypad is stowed. The N800 will benefit from this!

***

I didn't know it shipped with a case. That was quick.

***

All in all the N800 running OS 2008 and eventually 2009 is a much better deal...

Now!

So, the only group who looses out were the ones who paid full price for the N800 only to be the OS beta test and marketing focus group, for the N810.

Especially the ones who spent additional dough on Navicore and a BT GPS unit.


cough, that would be me, cough.

Oh yeah... plus the dang case, 6 months later.

:)

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

You don't lose out. You get the new OS for free.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Is the N800 really underclocked? I had never seen this mentioned, I would have gladly traded some battery life in order to have a faster device these last 10 months.

This would definitely be a nice surprise if OS2008 unlocks the higher chip speed. Same thing happened on the PSP a while back, Sony came out with a firmware update that unlocked some extra horsepower.

So far, I like what I see with the N810...I'm sure I'll be at CompUSA the day they are released, just like I was with the 770 and then the N800. I really don't understand all the complaining about the D-pad, considering this is a touch-screen device. Seeing the complaints is like deja vu all over again, the way people lamented the loss of the hard cover when switching from the 770 to the N800. Things change, we adapt and move on...no big deal.

With the updated OS2008, looks like I'll keep my N800 around for quite a while, since it will be better suited for multimedia with the dual SDHC slots and rotating camera. But I'll also get an N810 to use as a replacement for one of my laptops that I frequently use at home. Quite a difference from when I didn't even want to use my 770 anymore because the N800 was so superior in just about every way. Both devices now will complement each other.

I am excited, can't wait until next month!

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

3 flash upgrades and reinstalls + bugs reported to Bugzilla...


... Priceless

:)

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//ma...ch/009166.html

So, is the LCD controller the same one I wonder, or have they eliminated this issue?

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

My million-dollar-question:

Is there native A2DP support?

I haven't seen this anywhere, and I didn't see it in the profiles list, unless it was somewhere else.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

That's the big question on my mind. With the peppier processing power, the limited video bandwidth is going to be an even bigger issue than it has been. Higher framerate/resolution video is natural, but are we still stuck with that bottleneck?

This is the deciding issue for me, whether to pay $200 more and get the N810, or settle for the N800, and pocket the extra money.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Personally I really like the new hardware design, think they did a great job if compacting the format, adding the keyboard, etc. That said I'm prefectly happy with my N800 and if we get the new OS I'll probably stick with it until the first round of "discounts" on the N810 next year, mainly becuase I already have a substantial investement in SD memory cards, a BT stowaway keyboard, and extra battery. But for my friends who've been sitting on the fence admiring my N800 I think the N810 will push them into adoption.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

wow this thread is crazy. This morning it was only 3 pages. then 17 when i started reading and now 18 pages.

I must say i like the look of the new design. I can't wait to test out the new OS. I just don't like how a memory slot was taken away. imagine 2 16gig cards plus 2 gigs internal 34gigs.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Orbitalcomp, I believe the answer is: no. But I gather it would be feasible to introduce A2DP with another firmware update? That's what Nokia has been doing with phones at least.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Yesterday I had a real downer on the N810; I perceived it as the next step on from the N800, and was consequently somewhat disappointed. But as more details have been released today I realise that it's not a replacement for the N800, instead it is an alternative to the N800.

I still think the styling of the N810 is lacking for an N-series device, and while the size reduction is welcomed the additional 20 grams weight mean the N810 is less pocket friendly than the N800 which is already uncomfortable in a trouser pocket, and just about bearable in a suit jacket pocket. The miniSD slot is annoying, but not a deal breaker.

The new features in OS 2008 sound promising (particularly the SAP BT profile) though the continued omission of A2DP is a real bummer. I hope the video bandwidth issues have been resolved, we probably won't know for sure until someone like Serge has access to a device!

As an interim/alternative device I think the N810 is a good move and a shot in the arm for NITs and while it could have been better I'm confident Nokia will finally nail it with the next gen "N900" Internet Tablet which I would expect to arrive mid to late 2008! :)

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Just a few comments from an X - Nokia 770 user, and now iPhone owner.

I am also a Linux fan, and I am *NOT* impressed with eye candy. We bought a new iMac. It was cool for about the first 3 days, but once the newness wore off, I was back to my Fedora system. So, I am FAR from an Apple fanboy, and this isn't intended as a troll.

The iPhone has it's faults and the whole locking down, hacking, locking down, hacking thing s*cks. Mine is jailbroken, and I have 3rd party apps, and even a terminal (just like I did on my 770).

However, Unless Nokia does something *Very* serious to improve the User experience, They might as well give up, and sell the few Nokia Stores to Apple to turn into Apple Stores.

The user experience on the iPhone is really that much better.

iPhone: Very Fast, smooth 2D inertial scrolling with just a flick of the thumb.
Nokia: If you hack root access, install terminal, learn vi, and edit an .ini file you can get slow, clunky scrolling with the d-pad. Apparently there is still no scroll wheel.

iPhone: Multiple ways of nearly instant, continuous zoom. Just double tap to make a certain column of text readable (depending on the web page).
Nokia: A few pre-set zoom levels that are unaware of the structure of the page. Usable via keys on the top, or several taps away, in a menu.

The iPhones dial metaphor for doing things like pull downs, and selecting dates in Calendar is way cool too - also inertial.

Also, the on-screen keyboard on the iPhone *IS* useable. It's the best on-screen keyboard, I have ever seen. IMHO, the finger type thing on my N770 was 100% unusable. (I'm the one that built the Keyboard Dock for the N770). The touch screen on the iPhone/iTouch is a completely different technology. I actually like to type on it, and I would be willing to bet that I can type on the iPhone's virtual keyboard, as fast as on the N810's hardware keyboard. (This is based on my experience with a Nokia 9500, which I also owned.) I do *not* have small fingers.

I also bought a N770 for my wife. It sits around the house and she almost never uses it. She will, however use my iPhone. She said that the iPhone is the first portable device she thinks is actually usable for web surfing.

Granted, some of the UI on the iPhone is just eye candy (like the flip through your albums thing - I only use it to show people. It has no real function at all). But other parts, as indicated above, really do make the iPhone much more usable than other small devices.

Price:

Mine is a 4G iPhone - $299
16G iTouch - $399
Compared to a 2G N810 for $479 ?!!
(Oh, and don't forget that the iPhone is a phone too, if you want it to be.)

GPS:

Has Google maps, Cell tower based location available. GPS only tells you your *present* location. For planning trips, real time traffic, finding business locations, phone numbers, etc. GPS helps you exactly 0. All of these things clearly state DO NOT USE WHILE DRIVING. I agree. If you are really so out of it that you do not even know your present location, you probably should not be driving anyway.

Battery life - replaceability.

A charge on my iPhone lasts about as long as any other WiFi equipped device. Its better than my N770 or Pepper Pad, and about the same as my n80 (phone). If the iPhone's eye candy reduces battery life compared to other devices, I have not seen it.

As far as replacing the battery, Look how often Nokia comes out with new NXXX devices. I estimate that the battery on my iPhone will need replacing in about 1 to 2 years. I have not kept a phone for that long since the AMPS days. I also have the skills to replace it if needed. New, 3rd party batteries are $29.95, OEM for $39.95.

Anyone concidering a N810 should actually try to do something on an iPhone/iTouch and on the N810 before buying.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Would you please look at it long enough to let us know if it's Modest?

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I thought there was no need for the sliding keyboard. They should have put the phone feature instead of a keyboard.....people who wanted a keyboard could have bought bluethooth keyboard, which can be very efficient in typing....just that change would have made this device lot better than it really is. Nokia would have made their name next to apple iphone if they had used just a little bit more of their brain.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

i may have missed something here, but does the n810 have one or two media slots, and what form factor is it/are they? can i use both of my SDHC cards in it?

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

So how is the built-in GPS on the iPhone/Touch?

:D

Brains were effectively utilized. The N800 uses a bluetooth keyboard. Stick with that, forget the N810, problem solved.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Surely that depends on what you want to do at the time. I have a bluetooth keyboard, which is great for serious typing when you have a table to sit at. But I can't flake on the sofa while watching TV, and use it while IM'img friends. I could (and regularly did) with my HTC Tytn, do occasionally with my n800, and am sure I would regularly with the n810 (when I get one). The only reason I don't more with the n800 is because the full screen keyboard hides what I'm doing. I know there are small BT keyboard, but I wouldn't want to hold the n800 in one hand and a keyboard in another.

I'm sure that I would still use the BT keyboard for sending emails, taking notes etc...

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Hello before comparing apple and nokia.... i sincerely advice you to try the n800 once. The experience is quite different. You are comparing a 120 dollar device to a 400 dollar device. That is not a good comparision. SO please use a n800 atleast if not the n810 and then compare.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Given the iPhone came out 2+ years later then the N770 it should better it in many many ways! But until the iPhone is *truely* open, it won't have a place for many people like me. (And I'm not talking about a promise of an SDK and developer verification).

I have several friends with iPhones. I agree the accellerated UI is slick, and out of the box it does have better apps. But after a couple of weeks of Coverflow, *****ing about the Edge network, and Jailbreaking they do lust after what the N8X0's have openly available. Rhapsody, VOIP, OpenVPN, Subversion, Claws, MicroB, MaemoMapper etc.

Hardware-wise there are some things also.

a) The screen. 800x480 is a lot different then 480x320. I've pinched and squeezed enough to know that more reslution is always better in this respect.

b) Video cam. Nokia certainly fumbled with this to start, but it finally sounds like we're getting some support. (At least H263 over SIP which is fine with me to start :) ) If they continue working on this and combine it with a user friendly service, that alone would make it "the" unit for some people. For now even using Motion to make the N800 into a quick wireless webcam is very slick.

c) And now the hardware keypad, which many people consider a top priority.

Now Nokia just needs to concentrate on some fantastic video drivers with truely optimized 2d/3d accelleration. Then just let the "community" make coverflow 2.0 ;)

Of course I agree with you though, people should try them both. But more then that, make a list of what you really want to do with a mobile net device. For me that makes it a no brainer.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I agree that inertial/momentum finger scrolling would go a long way to improve the finger parts of the Nokia UI

Actually, on my N800, I get pretty fast scrolling from the d-pad. MUCH faster than finger scrolling or stylus scrolling. Just hold it down, and watch the web page whiz bye.

I don't have much of a problem with the Nokia here. Could it be better? sure. Is it inadequate now? no.

Perhaps the N800 is better than 770 on this, but I find that I like the N800's finger keyboard more and more. The only thing I do NOT like about it is that it gets in teh way of seeing the underlying application. Otherwise, I like it a lot.

When I used the iPhone in the store, with its on-screen keyboard, I hated it. No where near as comfortable nor accurate, for me, as the N800's full screen keyboard.


After what Apple has done, and after how great the N800 is, Apple would really have to perform some major coup to get me back. The iPhone and the iPod Touch just aren't worth my money. They don't do what I need (without risking bricking your phone) ... that might change in February, but at this point it's too little too late. Merely finally releasing a native toolkit, this late in the game, wont win me back.

But, then, I'm still trying to figure out just how annoyed by the N810 I am. If the next IT has some more of those annoyance factors AND Apple pulls their heads out of their butts, maybe I will go back. Most likely, though, both camps will annoy me, so as long as Nokia's new designs annoy me less than Apple's attitudes, I'll probably stay with the Nokia ITs.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I havn't gone through this whole thread so someone might have typed my exact words already.

In my opinion the onscreen keyboard would have been good enough for a device of this size. I don't think one will be touch typing with this one. It probably won't work very well to have the N810 lying flat on a table and typing on it. If one could pull out the keyboard and fold screen/keyboard 45 degrees it might be better.

But then this would be trying to make it into a minilaptop, and this is a tablet...

With a few software changes the virtual keyboard could have been a bit better.

I'd like to see a DVD box sized little cheap N810 spec. laptop (which runs Maemo) with a good keyboard (the DVD box size would allow one to use both hands effectively while typing).

In addition one would be able to fold the unit 365degrees, either to laptop mode or tablet mode.

I dare you, grab a DVD box and play with it.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this device is for laying flat on the table and typing. I think it's intended to be at thumb keyboard used in the same fashion as a T-Mobile Sidekick or MDA or Wing. You hold and type on it in much the same manner as you would the N800's full screen keyboard, except that the screen is above your thumbs instead of under them.

I think a lot about ergonomics, and even though the N810 is warming up for me the more I think about it (I don't have a huge investment in SD cards, so why not buy a MicroSD->MiniSD adaptor and standardize on MicroSD cards now? things like that), there are still some real design concerns I have about the N810.

The Dpad placement on the N800 is ergonomically ideal. The base of both thumbs hold the N800 against the ring and pinky fingers. The tip of the left thumb then rests easily on the Dpad. It doesn't have to extend/stretch down to use the Dpad (as it will on the N810), and it doesn't have to flex excessively (as it does when using the escape/menu/home button on the N800).

The best way I can see to address the ergonomics of the thumb placement, in a device as small as the N800 and N810, is to:

1) put the d-pad in the upper left, as on the N800
2) put the escape/menu/home buttons in the upper right, where the Nokia logo is on the N800 and N810 (move the Nokia logo to the bottom center, at the lower edge of the screen)
3) do not have the side-bars slide with the screen. Look at the new Motorola Sidekick Slide for what I mean here (or the Sony Viao UX, or the chinese prototype red linux umpc). Only the screen slides up, to reveal the keyboard, while the places you grip the device remain stationary.
4) slightly divide the keyboard, and separate the two halves, the exact placement being made for ideal thumb reach. Make sure neither thumb has to excessively stretch to each the center of the keyboard (left thumb for the G key, right thumb for the H key), but also so that neither has to excessively flex to reach the edges of the keyboard (left thumb A, right thumb semi-colon).
5) I'm not sure if the right/best place to put the chat cam is between the two keyboard halves, or at the top center edge of the sliding screen section (sort of where the Macs put their chat cams). The light sensor probably should go at the top center, whether the cam is there or not.

I have NO doubt that if Nokia does an actual formal usability study comparing this layout to the N810, that his layout will be far better. It might mean going back to the slightly longer form factor of the N800, but I think the ergonomic win would certainly justify it.

Add in a tilt for the screen (that can be tilted even if you don't slide the screen, then you don't need an integrated stand), and you've got a very compelling design.

Yeah, I'd prefer if the full screen keyboard still allowed you to see part of the application, the way the stylus keyboard does. Sure, it'd be a tiny part of the screen, but it would feel more like live input than what you do now.

If they're going to make a larger device, then I don't want to see a micro-laptop. As much as I have some like for the idea of a "laptop in my pocket", even if it's my jacket cargo pocket, having the keyboard at the lower edge of your device isn't really a good idea.

If they go to a bit larger form factor (esp. if they do it as a second product line; lets call it a "Nokia UMPC" in contrast to the "Nokia Internet Tablet"), then I want to see a form factor like the PepperPad and Samsung Q1/Q2. This design really embraces the ideal thumb positions for the integrated keyboards. The left half of the qwerty keyboard is in the upper left part of the device, the right half of the qwerty keyboard is in the upper right part of the device, with the touch screen being between them. The Dpad is slightly below the one of the two keyboard halves and the other special buttons are below the other keyboard half.

If Nokia makes an UMPC, that's what I'd like to see. Unfortunately, I don't think you can comfortably make a tablet with that arrangement. The WiBrain, I think, is trying to do it ... and it's REALLY long (9 inches I think?). I just don't think it'd work for the intended size class of the 770/N800/N810 devices.

That said, I WOULD like to see Nokia go into that product space. But only after the "5th step" in the 770/N800/N810 is finished, and only with caution (don't bet the farm/company stability on it). But having a "nokia umpc" that 's fully compatible with the "nokia internet tablets", but with more expandability (video out, more USB options, etc.), larger screen, more battery life, and more storage/memory would be a nice product to see. As with the other UMPCs, cell radio could be omitted: you could use the Internet Tablet as your tether, if the 5th step in that series includes a cell radio. That way the two products work together.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Or...wait another 7 months and it'll drop in price :D

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

personally, i feel like the n810 is the culmination of all those surveys they had asked us 770 users and then sent their designers to go and build a better tablet. Of course, they forgot to look at how the market had shifted with the proliferation of HTC products and Apple's UI advancements. Which makes the n810 seem half-baked still. Just like all the tablets beforehand. I bought the 770 when it first came out because there was nothing else on the market that could compete with it right out of the box. This is not true this time around.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Yeah, doing that on the 770 worked very well, I could sometimes do it very fast, ratatatatataa.

I wonder how well it would work with a semi-transparent full screen keyboard.

I'd like a micro-laptop and was glad to see that Palm Foleo... And a bit sad after they canceled it after all the flame it got on engaget.com or something...

So, continuing on my vision of a DVD sized micro laptop that you can fold 365degrees... -> you would also be able to do detach the screen and keyboard from each other! And they'd talk to each other in bluetooth or something....

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Just had an interesting thought for the placement of the dpad and button cluster.

1) intead of having a big panel on the back of the device that you remove for dealing with the battery, have a smaller panel on the left&back of the device for sliding the battery in and out.
2) in the center of the back of the device, have a slightly recessed dpad (recessed so that it doesn't get triggered by having the device lay on the table) in reach of the left index finger. Perhaps have the "select" button be reached/used by the left middle finger.
3) within reach of the right index finger and right middle finger, put the button cluster (escape/menu/home and maybe fourth application specific button)
4) use side bars that are as narrow as the N810, but have them be stationary as I suggested in my last message. (so only the screen slides, like with a Sidekick Slide)
5) still need to decide where to put the camera

So, that gets you the smaller profile of the N810, without sacrificing ergonomics.

I'm not sure if this design (I'll call "dpad/buttons on the back") is going to be better or worse than my previous post ("dpad/buttons at the thumbs"), but I _am_ sure that it will get better usability ratings than the N810.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

why not use the space on the right side for the dpad. Then the keyboard can be full size also. That would have been the best option

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

The response to that I've seen has been that most people are right handed and will have the stylus in that hand-- so in that context dpad on the left makes sense.

Personally, I'd like to see an ambidextrous device...

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

What do you mean by "full size" keyboard? My suggestion doesn't shrink the size of the N810's keyboard. It gives plenty of room for a thumb keyboard.

If you mean a keyboard the size of the Think Outside iGo Stow away keyboard ... I don't think you'd come up with a really good way to build that into an internet tablet. The closest I've seen in a Korean device, but it looks really awkward. And I wouldn't want to use it, say, on a bus or while looking up things while I'm watching TV from my couch.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I meant that the left corner for the dpad can be used to extend the thumbkeypad

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I think that'd be pretty ideal as well.

With the "buttons at the thumbs" idea, if the button cluster was a second d-pad, then you could have the 2 dpads be programmable. "right dpad is a button cluster with escape/home/menu/extra, left dpad is a dpad", or visa versa. I suppose that could be done with the "buttons on the back" as well.

What might be really interesting, with buttons on the back, is if the buttons can detect the presence of the fingers (not pressing, just resting), then a translucent overlay on the screen could appear. And it could give an indication of which finger movement would give what result.

Lift your index fingers off of the back buttons, no translucent over lay.

Put your left index finger on the left dpad (on the back of the device), and it shows a dpad shaped translucent image over the screen, along with icons over each direction that indicate what will happen if you press that direction. So, by default, it would have arrows pointing up/left/down/right, and an "S" in center (for select).

Put your right index finger on the right dpad, and it shows a dpad shaped translucent image over the screen. By default, it would put the words "escape, home, menu, B" over the 4 directional parts of the image, and "A" in the center.

And then there'd be a control panel that lets you put the "directional" cluster on either the left or the right dpad ... and lets you assign which direction is which function for the non-directional dpad (so, you pick whether "escape" is up, down, left, right, or center on that dpad).

I suppose that overlay technique could be used for "buttons at the thumbs" as well. I just think it'd be extra useful for "buttons on the back".

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I've had a couple other useful ideas about how to keep the size of the N810 (and the narrow side bars), but improve the ergonomics ... but I don't know that Nokia is actually listening (other than Texrat, but I don't know if that means _nokia_ is listening). If I hear from Nokia maybe I'll suggest more ideas.

All of my ideas, though, keep the "only the screen slides" idea. That way you have a firm and consistent place to hold the device. And, since that means your thumb would cover the N810's camera, it also means that all of my ideas require that the camera move somewhere else.

Maybe I'll draw up a couple mock-ups.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I just wish Chinook implemented transparent thumb board for the N800 that is the only usability issue I have with using the device for chats etc right now. I already have BT GPS and so this little enhancement would have gone a long way.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I guess the first step would be to convince ... um, convince that a transparent thumb keyboard would actually be a good and usable idea.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

A transparent thumb keyboard would be a good and usable idea. Trust me. ;)

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Why not write your own? The input method specs have been published recently

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

I am a man of science, not of faith. ;) I need something a bit more than that.

Re: The Nokia N810 Internet Tablet
 

Would a poll here suffice? :D