Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

No no.. I'm saying that I knew that's what you had intended. ("I called it!" as in betting, where you guessed the outcome correctly.)

Although, I agree with your sentiment for speed, and I wouldn't MIND an Atom processor, I'm ambivalent on what TYPE of processor is in there. I'm more concerned right now with just bumping up the speed until it's at a sweet spot of being JUST fast enough to do what I need. Laptops and desktop PC's passed that point for me years ago and the N800 is pretty good.. but it just needs a slight kick up in speed and cache on the processor. The fact that it's an ARM helps because it's a very power efficient RISC processor and performs very fast despite what the MHz label tells you.

Personally, I think I'd rather continue to use ARM processors but I hurt for speed enough to be open to a change if it's necessary.

As for OS X and Vista.. no. I don't want that. Not at all. Oh God, no. :)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

well acording to wikipedia the 800mhz atom is .65 watts/ I searched that page and everyone assumed it was 2.5 watts which is a load more.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Atom isn't a system on a chip as OMAP is. Even if the Atom processor can achieve low power draw, all the other chips necessary for Atom to do anything push the power consumption of an Atom-based tablet well higher than an OMAP-based one.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Now that I think about it, didn't someone successfully make a whole Commodore 64-on-a-chip? How about one of those in the tablet? ;) Joking. Don't hurt me. Please--not the face!

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Yes, but the people who complain on here that keeping an N800/N810 in a pants pocket results in an unsightly bulge are really going to be unhappy with those.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

i think im just tired of not being able to play a standard divx file smoothly with mplayer or canola.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well, you're in luck! The OMAP3430 can handle decoding up to 720p.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Yeah, that's actually a big deal to me too. I would LIKE to be able to take the stuff from off of my NAS where the Neuros OSD drops stuff off and simply copy and play it on the go (or simply play it over the network) without skipping and jerking and tearing and so on. :)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

For the Atom debate: remember that an Atom is singularly poor in performance per clock cycle; trimming the power consumption of an x86 isn't a free lunch, so you've got to account for varying performance/MHz ratios on both architectures. And x86 binary compatibility get's very little we can't have now; Debian has FF (make that IceWeasel) and OOo builds, so Skype with video is about the only popular x86-only app I can think of. Wine, too, on second thought, but still...

Unless you want to run a closed OS (Windows or OSX), the atom looks to me like a bad idea in general, and a very bad idea in an N8x0-class device.

Not bogomips, NO!... Other performance metrics, perhaps, but bogomips is not a useful measurement for anything but calibrating a certain delay loop; that's why it's calculated at all. In a given processor family, it's directly proportional to clock speed, so it's also used as a surrogate for clock speed, but never use it for comparing machines of different processor types. ;) (And yes, other (real) benchmarks aren't bad, but then we'll just descend to arguing the merits of various benchmarks... they're not the automatic infusion of objectivity we might wish for.)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

My thoughts exactly.. hence my ambivalence to processor type--I just advantages of running Linux, not necessarily compatibility with other architectures. Even WINE seems kind of pointless--I'm not sure there's a lot of need for that on a tablet without a mouse and a keyboard. I've got better things to do than run Windows apps on my tablet. :)

True... well said. :)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

one thing about slapping a existing os on a tablet, the interface is rarely built for it...

just look at the issues one have with a non-hildonized port of a gtk app for example?

now consider using a desktop windows app on a small screen. i dont know about anyone else, but it gives me the creeps, and im ok with using a stylus...

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Talking about Atom and possibility to load Vista on upcoming MID products... I'd say no thanks! Even "Blazing fast" Atom at 1.6GHz is pathetically slow, even when compared to bottom of the barrel desktop CPU solutions:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...t,1981-11.html

Better stick with tablet optimized OS'es... :rolleyes:

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

In general, I agree: anyone who thinks that they'll get their hearts desire by increasing the resolution and having some form of binary compatibility, so they can run their favorite desktop app, is going to be in for a huge disappointment.

But ... the other side of the coin is: that level of discomfort is a personal issue, and not a universal one. And other needs often offset that discomfort (for example, a very specific personal or business need might make the discomfort completely moot). If it can be done for reasonable (economic, mobility, power) cost, binary compatibility should be consideration.

It will be interesting, to me, to see what kinds of heat/power/cost/size/weight the MID designs end up with, being based around the Atom (or for the Via Nano, for the ones that go in that direction). If they end up being comparable to the NIT on those levels, then it becomes harder for the NIT to say "it wont work to go in that direction". But until we see them out in the field, it's all guess work.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Discomfort isn't personal anymore if a statistically significant group experiences the same feeling. While not universal, most people feel uncomfortable with a command line prompt. This doesn't mean a command line prompt is uncomfortable, nor comfortable. All it means is that a statistically relevant percentage of the group feel uncomfortable with the command line prompt; in such case, calling this 'personal issue' is simply belittling the problem, not taking the statistically relevant group of people seriously. Calling this 'universal' would imply we (almost) all agree (minus a statistically irrelevant number of individuals). That isn't the case either.

This is also exactly why I wanted to know the context of the ideas. I want to know how many persons suggest what, and their pros/cons. But perhaps the task is quite large.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

:pFrankly, I believe Crossover for Linux or WINE is quite an advantage on a x86 nettop / mini laptop because only the mere possibility of being able to use it to run a niche application only available closed source on Windows, is a sigh of relief. If I look back, I can think of countless small applications I'd love to have used on a NIT/MID or perhaps mini-laptop.

There are hardware implementations of the SIDchip, but AFAIK not small, embedded ones requiring no interface.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

question is, does the discomfort come from unfamiliarity?

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet...
Bring back the flip cover (detachable), but also put an e-ink display on the cover. Then tie the primary screen and the flip cover together in X so that they can either both display the same image, or addressed separately. Also, put the e-ink display on both sides of the flip, so that you can have it be useful both opened and closed.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Good lord. Did you miss the realistically in the topic title?

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

E-ink isn't realistic? There's several devices shipping now that have e-ink (Amazon Kindle, that Sony ebook reader, etc). Now e-ink isn't usable as a primary display for most applications due to slow refresh, but it could make a fine secondary display, and it can be made thin enough to be embedded into a protective flip cover.

Except for the price, but that should be coming down soon. So in that case, it might need to wait for the n950.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Uhh, businesses buy millions of 'laptops' for their employees each year. Sorry, they aren't buying tablets and sorry, but 9 of the 10 apps I use daily simply cannot be made to work on a tablet; nor would I expect my employees to stare at a 4" screen all day. I'd have no employees left because they would all leave, or they would all be on disbility ffrom the migraines they would get from staring at a 4" screen for 6 hours per day.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Hmmm. Let's see.. it wasn't "me" that mentioned a tech guy in the boardroom... and I am not "hawking" anything.

Er, never mind. You obviously have this all figured out so what's the point.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Until businesses are the only ones buying laptops, or businesses buy every type of laptop in large quantities, it's hard to argue that non-usefulness for business purposes (let alone for suits in particular) says they're not laptops. Maybe you could argue that they're not business laptops, but that's as far as you can go.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

None of which changes what I said:

Business customers do not define what is or isn't a laptop. Nor even what is or isn't a useful laptop. Nor even what is or isn't a successful portable computing gadget.

They are one segment of the market. Even if they're the largest segment of the market, they're still just one segment of the market. There are other market segments, which are profitable, and have no need to address the desires of the business customer market segment.

It's possible to have quite successful laptop products that aren't aimed at business customers at all. First generation iBook. iPod. iPod Touch. All successful portable computing gadgets that aren't/weren't focused on the business market (you could even put the first gen iPhone into this category, as many business gadget pundits have complained loudly that it didn't have features necessary to the business market).

And, by the way, we're talking about the N800, N810, and N900. Notice that they're N series devices, and not E series devices. Tell me that they NEED to be satisfying to the business market when there's a NIT that's an E series device.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well, I think the most important thing Nokia needs to do, if it plans to keep producing the Internet tablet, is lower the price point. New, lower-priced, Atom-based UMPCs that very much resemble the N810 are coming out. The AIGO MID, meant for the Asian market, went on sale in Hong Kong this week for slightly under $700 USD and is already available on Ebay for $759. The size is only slightly larger than the N810, but there's a lot more power under the hood; it's got an external antenna port to connect a GPS antenna. The Gigabyte, another Atom-based UMPC that resembles a slightly larger N810 is due out this year, too. Although these units are being released with variations of Linux, they're powerful enough to run about any flavor of desktop Linux. So, there's competition on steroids moving in to the block and I think it's essential that Nokia lower it's price point.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well, there's no reason (I know) to suppose the N900 will come in at a higher price point than the N810 did, which still undercuts those handily, and it will be smaller and have comparable processing power. I don't see the "steroids" there; sure there's competition, but they hardly seem to be a big threat in my view. I wish they were better, but I just don't see the 1st-gen Atom devices as all that hot.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

True--it would be an advantage but it would mean either requiring an x86 processor--which would drain more power and provide less overall advantage of an OMAP system-on-a-chip design--or an x86 emulation layer which would REALLY be much slower and less advantageous for those emulated apps. I'd rather avoid it altogether myself but, like I'd said before, I can certainly understand the advantage you would want but it's a balance between battery life, cost and other details versus that one advantage of being able to run WINE. I'd probably lean more toward the OMAP.

I would not want that to come with the unit. Maybe if the unit had an expansion port to lock into or just some bare contacts that an optional (read: buy seperately) device like an e-ink case could touch or communicate with with you slip the N9x0 device into it? Maybe if they moved the USB port out from behind the kickstand and just used that for the case to click into? (I might be afraid of damaging the port if the case gets dropped with the N9x0 inside.)

This goes to my point about the e-ink being optional. Plan for these upgrades and enhancements.. but leave them optional so that they don't make a useful thing too expensive. But make something awesome that kicks this system up a notch as an optional purchase to add on later so that we have time to save up for it after making that initial purchase. For that matter--it also increases the possibility of something being exploited like the 'geek port' on the old BeBox. Let users and third party manufacturers ALSO get involved in making upgrades and useful peripherals.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Now that I think about it... why not a really low power microwave radio signal to communicate with such a case (the way RFID does)--I'd almost guess the N8x0 series could probably already do that. hm. Bonus if the eink case has another battery (or maybe a place for AAA's) inside a panel which can help charge the N9x0 while it's inside its case and REALLY extend the time the unit can be used overall.

Just brainstorming that one--I'd have to weight that against the cons if it could realistically be designed.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I don't see the MID's being an initial threat, but I do see them getting better. And the one thing that I see setting them up as an eventual winner over the NITs, if they NITs don't resolve this, is that several of the MIDs have a plan for HSPA WWAN support.

The NITs will need some form of included WWAN that actually has a sizable market footprint. And probably soon (sooner than WiMAX will get them there). And, no, tethering doesn't count for this requirement.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I do think Nokia's price point is too high, which they could get away with when they didn't have competition. I think the MIDs may drop in price slightly once they're marketed beyond Asia--say to around slightly under $600 USD. (For a UMPC, their introductory price point is very reasonable.) But given the fact that the MIDs' processors are more powerful and their specs more robust, I think their price point is going to make someone seriously interested in a Linux device think twice about plunking down almost $400 USD (or more) for a NIT when you get a MID for slightly more.

BenQ will be releasing its MID in Europe this year. Pricing hasn't been announced yet, but it will be interesting to see what price point they choose. Perhaps, release of a MID in it's home market will motivate Nokia to reduce the NIT to sub-$300 USD. I think that's about the price point they're going to have to adopt to compete with the MIDs, which have more powerful processors, more RAM and more internal storage.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Ya mean like... Bluetooth? I'd almost guess so, too. ;) That's reasonably suitable, and could be done software-only on the tablet side. (I'm thinking BIP.) I'm not sure the gadget would be all that awesome, with current eink displays, but it's definitely plausible... even in a third-party sense on current tablets.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I'll believe that the MIDs are more powerful when we start to see benchmarks. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there's nothing concrete to base such a claim upon. Comparing Hz between two different CPU architectures are like comparing apples and oranges.

Same for the other factors.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

johnkzin,

I would agree that it's always difficult to compare different processors. However, the MIDs are all slated to come with versions of Open Office, which we all know runs very slowly with Debian installed on the NIT. The Gigabye will actually rival the iPhone in that it will have 3G as well as WIFI and GPS. It's initial price point for release in the Taiwan market is $750 USD. Unlike the Aigo, it appears to be slated for broader release, at least to the European market and, possibly, North America.

I'm anxious to see hands on reviews as well as benchmarks. Here's a link to an article discussing pricing of the Gigabyte. http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/06/gi...lability-info/

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Exaaaaaactly. :) I think that'd be pretty neat, actually. It doesn't need to be particularly high resolution or colorful or anything. It would barely use power.

It could be a virtual screen Bluetooth device for things that show primarily static displays like clocks, omweather, calendar, countdown of Bush's remaining days in office, etc. :)

Remember, first and foremost, it'd be a hard case to slip the N8x0 into to protect it.. THEN it'd just be a cheap B&W eink display on the outside.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Brighter Display (eg.the PenTile display from http://www.clairvoyante.com/)
A2DP support.
More Memory.
A GPS chip that works reasonably well.
Accelerometers for use as an input device.
A faster response time on the touch screen.
A means of streaming windows media.
Skype with video conferencing capability.
IR capability.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I come back from the comment of disliking all kind of add-ons as seperate from the NIT.

My opinion is: do something good, or don't do it. There are too many issues with the GPS chip in the N810. Therefore, either a correctly working internal GPS, or none at all. The same counts for e.g. 3G. If you have a device which doesn't have such chips internally, you allow the user to completely build their own device, but the disadvantage is that such all has to be carried with, and needs their own power source. This contributes to my preference of prefering a good implementation of the chipset. Yes, even if it'd increase the price a bit with 25 EUR. In the end, it is worth it for a lot of users. If I knew the GPS chipset in the N810 was as crappy as-is, I would have thought twice before I bought it. Now, I basically need a Tomtom (also given the lack of good navigation software for the NIT)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Right. But we don't know how crappily it will run on an Atom. As others have pointed out, the Atom cuts some corners for power consumption that may give it performance that is lower than similar Hz chips within the x86 family.

So... until we see Open Office "benchmarks" for the MIDs, we don't know if they'll actually be better at Open Office than the NIT.

I know about the Gigabyte M528. It's one of the MIDs I'm interested in :-)

One of the things I'm cautious about with it, though, is that the Wifi is SDIO based, and it's not clear if it has its own SD/SDIO slot, or if it uses the same SD slot that you use for storage... if it does, then that leaves me wondering how/if you'll be able to utilize both expanded storage and Wifi at the same time.

Then there's the battery life question.

And, last, there's the actual performance question.

All 3 of those things will determine whether or not its price will directly impact the N810/N900. If it uses 1 SD slot for Wifi and storage, has crappy battery life, and underwhelming performance ... then it could be priced at $400US, and I'd still consider the NIT to be a better buy.

On the otherhand, if it has separate SD slots for Wifi and storage, "good enough" battery (4.5 hours/day might actually work for me, depending on how long it takes to charge, how easy it is to use while charging*, and what kinds of external emergency battery chargers I can get), and decent performance compared to the NIT ... then its 3G and x86 compatibility might mean that I'd take it over a NIT even if it was $600.

But until we know those things for sure, with actual concrete use reviews, I'm not going to speculate about "these specs mean it's going to be a LOT more powerful than the NIT".

Specs : Real Performance :: Vaporware : Delivered Products


(* I don't consider the NIT to be very usable while plugged into ANYTHING, whether it's headphones, power, or USB devices, because they're located perfectly for interfering with 2 handed thumb typing. This makes it annoying to actually hold/use it while those things are plugged in. USB devices especially, because they require that the kickstand be open in order to access them ... if the Aigo/Gigabyte-M528 locates its plugs such that you can still fully utilize the device while charging/etc., then I'd consider that another win for the MID)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

There are SDIO cards which provide both storage and WiFi. I've seen them back in 2006, but my MID (Sharp Zaurus C1000) didn't support SDIO.

You can use the kickstand to keep your left hand inside, while using the right hand to type and use the stylus. It also has the advantage the device cannot be ripped out of your hands easily.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I get a 900 Series soon :) :) :)

... an EEE901 with 6h+ battery pack and can do/install what I want. I saw the 900 and I can life with that size.

But I don't give up N810 because of Carman. Then, I'm not in hurry with N900 and can wait the first price drop :)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

So, if I have a dozen SD cards, they all have to be Wifi+Storage cards?

And if I want to hot swap them while maintaining an active net connection (to an IMAP server, or a chat server, or something), then what?

1 expansion slot for wifi + storage is bad.

Since they're also going to be using a daughter card (I think) for the HSPA module, why not have that daughter card be HSPA+Wifi? They could even have it be a range of card options, depending on the customer's requirements:

Wifi only
Wifi + HSPA
Wifi + EVDO
Wifi + WiMAX

And when you add/switch a carrier, all you need to do is swap your wireless daughter cards. And then you're not mucking with the storage slot.

And the disadvantage that you can't comfortably type with both thumbs. I've tried it (and I used to regularly do this with my N800). That positioning works great when you're NOT typing. It doesn't work quite so great when you do want to type.

I maintain my assertion about the inconvenience of the N810's port positioning. :-}

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

USB's bad, for sure, and power is unfortunate; the audio plug, though, is above where my hand goes when two-thumbing. And the audio should be in one end for convenience when pocketing with a headset; the power and USB could be relocated to better places, though. (And I'd have liked the audio on the same end as the d-pad, for playback control, but now I use BT anyway...)

(I more frequently one-finger, FWIW; holding the left hand-through-stand, thumb on d-pad, and running right hand up and down the long axis of the screen like a gantry and picking out letters with my index finger is almost as fast as thumbing, and more convenient to transition pointing <--> typing.)

And if I was in a part of town where I was concerned about the N800 being ripped out of my hands, I think I'd rather have my fingers through brass knuckles than the kickstand. :D