Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

As some of you know, I've finally got an N810, and having experienced for 2 weeks, I have a bit more insight into the hardware features I would like to see in the next tablet.

Here are some wishes to add to the list:
A slimmer, smaller form factor. After owning the N810 for two weeks (and loving it), I have renewed appreciation for the small, thin form factor of the iPod touch. It is far more portable, than the N810 is currently.
Phone-Handset functionality. I understand that the tablet is not a phone, but as an internet appliance it is well suited for voip. This is reflected in Nokia playing up this aspect of the device and including voip software (RTCOMM+Skype), however, it can only hackishly be used as a handset for casual calls. It's my opinion that the N900 should be able to be held to the ear, even if it doesn't have cellular-voice capabilities.
A more durable screen/body. This could mean glass capacitive screen with a special stylus, or some crazy new technology. I would love not needing to baby the N900 near as much as I feel I need to baby the N810.

On a side note, this article released today shows that some of our wishes for the new tablet may actually come true:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4...30.html?kc=rss

YARR!
}:^)~

The Friendly Capt'n

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

You take away the large screen, and you take away the tablet's purpose.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

A little extreme, but I mirror the sentiment. Although I would not like to see much of a smaller 'screen' a little less border and a bit of a thinner form factor would make quite a large difference in portability.


YARR!
}:^)~

YARR?

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

One more wish before the weekend!

The Fujitsu Stylistic series of Slate PCs has a feature that I would LOVE to see in the N900:

A small built in battery that allows you to swap batteries without turning the device off.

On the stylistic slates, the battery allows for 5 minutes of uptime --more than enough for a battery swap. This would be very handy for extended usage periods that require continued uptime. Even 1 minute uptime should be enough for you to take out the old battery and put in the new (assuming you had it ready). Thankfully, such a battery could be very small and (hopefully) wouldn't hurt the form factor of his brave new unit!


YARR!
}:^)~

Daft Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Yeah, this is something I've wanted for a very long time (a feature I really miss from recent Apple laptops). We could probably manage this with an oversized capacitor, but at worst, I bet we could get suspend to disk working OK in Fremantle.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Capt'n Corrupt's wish for a smaller form factor just inspired in me a new (AFAIK) design idea. I agree, of course, with General Antilles' comment that we don't want to sacrifice any screen space. So a NIT that was no larger than the current screen would be the ideal.

On the N800 you have the d-pad and the escape/menu/swap buttons on the front (where it seems N810 users wish they were, too, rather than hidden with the keyboard). I like having hardware buttons and it seems Fremantle (unlike the iPhone) expects them, too. But having those buttons on the front requires that the unit have a larger face.

How about putting the buttons on the back? If they were positioned correctly, laid out well, and surfaced to provide tactile information, it would be easy to use them without seeing them. I'd position them vertically down the center of the back, where both righties and lefties could easily manipulate them with a forefinger, middle finger, and/or ring finger (instead of a thumb). (If you test this out, take into account that the unit would not be as wide as the current N8*0 -- in fact, it would be only about 92mm, or even say 100mm, instead of the N810's 128mm or the N800's 144mm.) The middle of the N900's back could easily be reached even by a small hand that was simultaneously being used to hold the unit.

The thing I do with the N800 that requires the most dexterity is selecting text in Tear, which requires holding down the Menu button while selecting with the stylus. I think holding down the menu key on the back for this would actually be easier with, say, my ring finger than it is currently with my thumb. And everything else would be at least as easy, maybe easier.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

For what its worth, I also agree that the screen size is what I want/need in order to properly run some of the apps that I want to run. So, please, not smaller :)

I do, however, agree that a smaller overall device would be great. That means much (?) less space for the frame around the screen. Would it be feasible/practical to have all the buttons on the 'edge' of the unit, similar to the power/zoom buttons? I suppose it might get a bit awkward for finding a comfortable 'holding' position unless this was done properly...

I only have an N800, so I don't know if the N810 has a nicer shape (it probably has), but having 'tapered' edges would also be great (the N800 edges are quite 'boxy').

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Some N810 users. Not all.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I like the screen size, it's one of the things that had me choosing this device over others. The only thing size or design wise I would really want changed (besides better button placement) is that the screen shouldn't be recessed. It makes some areas hard to hit like the X to close windows (which is changed anyway in Fremantle but still). Ideally it should be straight flat, kinda like other devices out there.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

This design seems like a good start

Attachment 3332

Link to engadget article

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I have both N810 and N800. I had N810 over half a year /before/ getting a N800. I prefer the placement of dpad and menu key on N800.. something to consider about shrinking the frame is that the tablet becomes harder to hold in one hand as the "handle" area shrinks. Or, I guess you could make the kickstand edge softer so that it isn't painful to hold tablet by the extended keypad :)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Not to sound like an old saw, but again, the Psion Series5 had this over ten years ago... it was a small, long-life lithium "pill" (the sort you find in watches, only a bit larger) that would keep your system alive while you swapped the AA batteries (or if they ran down on you). Of course, there was no Flash memory back then, everything was in RAM, so the functionality was sort of vital... :-)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Being left handed, I really like the placement of the D-pad on the N800. It makes it very easy for me to use the tablet one handed.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Things I have learned about what I want in a device, from having the G1:

1. a physical 5 row keyboard is a must, and better ergonomics than the N810's keyboard are a must (the G1 is very nice in this regard).
2. non-recessed screen.
3. a well designed touch screen is not a substitute for a pointing device, thus the pointing device needs to ALWAYS be available, not just when you open the device. I can deal with a plain keyboardless tablet if it's in the 7"-9" screen size AND has the ability to use USB and bluetooth keyboards AND it can display enough of the application on the screen while the virtual keyboard is up (the Q1 non-ultra did this well, with split translucent thumb keyboards; or if you were to do the portrait mode of the iPhone keyboard, only where the top half of the screen is big enough to display a full terminal window) ... but not on my pocketable. The screen is too small to still have a usable view of the application while thumb-typing on a virtual keyboard.
4. a micro-trackball is a terrible pointing device, I want a dpad.
5. a stylus should be optional ... some touch screens don't register them at all, and that's bad. The BEST stylus I've seen is the one for the Tube -- a guitar-pick like shape on the phone's lanyard.
6. having buttons on a non-moving shoulder/chin is much better than having some of your buttons move away from you whenever you open the device (ie. like the 2 buttons on the face of the N810).
7. while an asymmetric shoulder arrangement (like the G1, which only has one shoulder, the "chin") isn't as annoying as I thought it'd be, it's still a little annoying.
8. while a kickstand isn't necessary, some form of screen elevation is (ie. either a "tilt screen" or a "kickstand" is a must, and I'd greatly prefer the tilt screen because the kickstand gets in the way of the ports; though a kickstand like the one on the back of the Samsung Q1 Ultra might be acceptable).
9. proper placement of the expansion ports is a must. On this one, the G1, the N800, and the N810 all FAIL. Comfortably holding the device while typing ... while charging the device and/or using the wired headset ... is an extreme annoyance.
10. Separate ports for charging and wired headset are a must (the G1 uses a single port for charging/data and headset, and it's annoying).
11. Charging via USB is the best thing to happen in human civilization since sliced bread and peanut butter. Ok, maybe penicillin goes into this group too. But, yeah, that's how good charging via USB is.
12. even though a physical keyboard is a must, some form of dialing and txt entry is necessary even when the device is closed -- on the G1, I often wish I could do T9 text entry on the existing virtual number pad. (sometimes I only have one free hand, but need to send a message or reply to one, or even just make a quick note)

Those are the things I would like to see applied to the design of a pocketable.

Speaking generally, I'd start with either the Nokia N97 or HTC Touch Pro 2 (Rhodium 100), only scaled up to a 4.1" or 4.3" 800x480 screen. I'd change the design so that only the screen slides (like the Sidekick Slide). On the shoulders, I'd put a 5 way dpad, and 3 or 5 buttons (non-phone: home, back, menu; phone: add call and hangup); whether the buttons were all on one shoulder (the right/bottom shoulder, like the G1) or spread out around the shoulders (like a sidekick) is up for debate. I'd have the screen do slide and tilt to reveal a G1-like 5 row keyboard, only I'd add a control and an escape key to the keyboard.

So, in terms of face, button layout, and keyboard, a larger version of the HTC Touch Pro 2, with shoulders (so the buttons you see on the far right still there, but on the shoulder, adding a menu button, and then maybe putting a 5 way dpad on the near left), and preserving the 5 row keyboard, just adding an escape key since it already has a control key (it should be possible both to keep the 5 row keyboard, and have the shoulders, since the device will be bigger) (you could probably re-use the arrow keys on the Rhodium, since the dpad will be on the left shoulder, right near your thumb; I'd put a shift key, a control key, and 2 other useful buttons there, then I'd put the escape key where the "caps lock" is, and put a shift key where the existing control key is).

As you hold the device like a N800/N810, open G1, or open sidekick, the mini-USB charging/data port would be on the lower right (facing down, but close to the right end). The 3.5mm audio port would be on the upper right (facing up, but near the right end). Thus, neither of these ports would interfere with holding the device in your hands while using the keyboard. The USB host/OTG port (mini or micro) would be on the lower left, as would some form of micro-DVI-I or micro version of the Apple Display port. In order to give as much battery space as possible, the microSDHC card slow would be on the upper-left. I might be convinced that you could swap the place of the microSDHC card and the audio port, and MAYBE have the audio port face off the short side of the device, as long as its very close to the corner to avoid interfering with your hands while you type.


Now, if the N900 were like that, it would be OUTSTANDING. With built in GPRS/EDGE/HSPA, if it turns out that it's usable as a phone/messenging device (via Google Voice, and/or Zer01 service), then I would be all over it. But, as I've said elsewhere, my pocketable has to be both an IT/PDA and a phone. I'm not going to carry 2 pocketables.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Actually, looking PDAnet's feature list for the N97 and the Rhodium, they would be excellent starting places for the N900 (the changes I suggest above, adding shoulders and such to the Rhodium, could just as easily be applied to the N97 ... the N97 would just need to have a 5 row keyboard). The N97 has a few wins, and the Rhodium has a few. Hopefully with a larger device, you'd be able to both increase the battery (and battery life) as well as use the best of both device's features (the Rhodium's GPS, the N97's 5MP camera, etc.).

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

This is funny. Eric G says he likes the n800 dpad where it is because he's left handed; I like the n800 dpad where it is because I'm right handed. And the first time I saw the G1 I thought, "the keyboard's upside-down and the screen folds out the wrong way." Crazy.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Yeah, I'm right-handed and like where the N800 D-Pad is too. My guess is that if it were on the other side, Eric G would find that he's perfectly happy using it with his right hand; and that we right-handers wouldn't have any trouble with it being on the right side, either. I don't think it matters which side it's on.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

If videogame consoles have taught us anything, it's that it doesn't really matter which side the d-pad is on. Despite a majority right-handed public, all modern videogame controllers feature the d-pad on the left side.

Left handed vs. Right handed only seems to matter when writing, all other interactions can be easily trained.


YARR!
}:^)~

IncanCapt'n

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I wish there were ONE MORE BUTTON on the face of the N800 (and hence on the face of the N900). I'd like a pseudo-Shift key or Toggle Button or whatever you want to call it. This is what it would do: In a text app like Notes or in a Browser, it would act as a Shift key does in combination with a mouse on a desktop; that is, you could tap with the stylus to place the cursor somewhere in the text, then scroll to a second point, and if you click on that second point while holding down the pseudo-Shift key, all of the text between those two points would be selected. (Just like on a desktop, you would, depending on the particular webpage, be selecting more than just text.) In a file manager, you would use the pseudo-Shift key to easily select multiple files.

Those are the main reasons I want such a key, but other apps could also use it as a modifier key, so that you would get an alternate response from clicking on an icon. E.g., if you clicked an application icon on the desktop, while holding down the shift key, maybe you would get Properties (Get Info) instead of launching the app.

One issue that comes up, though, is the right-versus-left placement of such a hardware button would matter, since you would be using it in combination with the stylus.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Here's an easy one. Get rid of the expansion port mechanism on the N810. I think it's more complicated than normal, and near impossible to get the MiniSD card out. It is also dangerous as it's very easy to put the card in at an incorrect angle, and since it requires quite a bit of force to go in, can result in a damaged card. It should be replaced by a MicroSD slot (perhaps 2) that provides very easy access to the card.

As it stands, card swapping is very difficult to do. In order to swap cards currently, I need to be sitting at a desk and is as such not an on-the-go procedure. It should be as easy as opening the door, sliding the card from the reader, and popping in a new one!


YARR!
}:^)~

Corrrrr

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Here is one more reason for a slightly shorter N810 :
(without reducing screen size)
To reach T-G-B comfortably when thumb typing.

Or, why not, the same form factor with a bigger screen and a split keyboard.
The D-pad could be a row of five keys on one shoulder, as already suggested.

( At least in Sweden most pocket calendars are just the size of the N810.)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Whilst it is no doubt WAY to late to speculate about the n900 design. (if it's not too late to change then release is much further away than I'd like)
I have to say that I'd gladly take a new device that looks *exactly* like the n810, but with faster processor/graphics accel, 3g and better camera.
but if I could have my wish then the screen would be flush to surface and about 10mm wider within the existing dimensions of an 810.
give me a | somewhere on the keyboard. maybe give me a scroll wheel on the side of the case (top right shoulder?)
camera on back, webcam on front.
That's about it. I don't need the device any smaller, and certainly don't want to trade battery life for less size.

Honestly though, if it was exactly the same as my 810 both hardward and software. but with faster processor and a 3g connetion option, I'd still be happy.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I feel much the same. For all of my suggestions, I'm very pleased with the N810 hardware, though it sometimes doesn't come across when posting. I'd gladly buy a N810+ with some form of WAN (HSPA/Wimax/LTE), a faster processor (OMAP3 will do nicely), and more ram (~512MB please!).


YARR!
}:^)~

"Corrupt" said he.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

256MB is realistic, 512MB really isn't. Part availability, cost, power usage.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I wouldn't bet on that ^.

hee.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well, looking at the kernel, it looks more like 128MB, so. :) Assuming you're not confusing flash, though, which seems likely to be over 16GB.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Based on previous threads, I think Fremantle supports hw buttons but does not necessarily expect them. And it may not be Fremantle that supports the hw buttons, but the UI or some other layer on top of Fremantle. I am eagerly waiting for an answer to this.

I think there is a problem with circuit board layout in putting buttons in the middle, should be near the periphery sort of like I/O connectors. Of course, there could be an innovative solution to that problem.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well I for one am glad that the next tablet is not the same hardware and software as the current generation. What we have now is good for now, but in a years time...

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

128MB would be disappointing, just short of shooting yourself in the foot. With a semi-official dual-toolkit approach and even more eyecandy, not to mention fennec et al, 128MB is the point where you end up on swap in no time - and not even a quad core A9 cortex can help you then.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I don't buy 128MB myself, it's from an early kernel version so there isn't really a lot of stock to be put in it.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

IIRC the change from 128MB to 256MB of RAM on the Pandora only increased the cost some 10 euros or so. As 256MB is now available it would be strange to go below that on a new device - it's probably a safe guess to say we'll see 256MB.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

In Nokia quantities, the price difference should be even less - that's why it would be a bad choice to go with 128. As GA said, 512 is a bit on the heavy side, though, so the most sensible choice based on my/your/anybody's educated guess is 256. We'll see.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Well, as GA also said, 512MB isn't really available either.. RAM has been discussed quite a bit on the Pandora forums (as popular an issue there as here) and afaik you can't yet buy 512MB pop for the omap3. In half a year or next year it'll probably be a different story though. Anyway I'm certain 256MB will prove to be a good size.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

It seems that 800x480 screens come in smaller sizes than 4.1". This article showcases the Sidekick LX with a 854x480 screen that's 3.2 inches. In other words, the device has a phone form factor with higher than NIT resolution. Would this type of a screen be good on an internet tablet?

I'm on the fence about this one. While I would like a smaller device, I'm thinking that a <4" screen might make viewing uncomfortable. Then again, I have pretty good vision, so I doubt I'll mind that much.

I'm interested to hear your input.

In the meantime, I'll be keeping a lookout for reviews of the Sidekick LX, with a particular eye on reports of the screen. It may be that the public likes this size? Time will tell.


YARR!
}:^)~
Signed, Capt'n

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Higher DPI is always better, but less than 4" and you lose the tablet's edge. I could see, perhaps, having another model with less than 4 inches alongside, but definitely not the only one.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

A flush bezel.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

. . . sounds like a great way to end up with a hole in your screen.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I have a flush bezel on my G1 ... no holes in my screen.

As for 3" vs 4" ... I definitely prefer a 4" screen for my pocketable. Even if it's the phone I might hold up to my head. I definitely prefer that the "N900" not to turn into a device that's significantly smaller than the N810. If anything, I want a G1, N97, or HTC Rhodium* that's as big as the N810.

That said, that's my preference. I'm actually quite happy with the G1, and if the N900 was able to deliver 800x480 resolution, tilt screen, better slide out qwerty keyboard, microSDHC card (or two), WWAN, and a battery sized for decent life time, but in a G1 sized device instead of an N810 sized device, I'd probably be happy with that hardware, too.

(and I'm slowly warming to the idea of N900+GoogleVoice as my phone, over my G1... it'll be something interesting to evaluate)


(* only, not running WinMo)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

It was $8.63 USD. That's why beagleboard rev C was planned with price 159. Since then they kept price at $149 USD so I guess prices went down.

EDIT, now it is a bit more
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/US/DK...me=557-1436-ND
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/US/DK...me=557-1435-ND

I don't know about absolute values and dollar exchange rate at that time.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Having just got an n810 a few weeks ago I have to say it's an excellent device but there are some areas it can be improved for the next version.

Ideally the n900 would be the same form factor with the sliding keyboard. They have managed to keep the n810 thin despite the slider and without a keyboard (even the excellent onscreen keyboard from the n800) the device would feel like it was missing something. I would love the slide to go a few mm higher next time as sometimes the top row feels just slightly cramped.

I'd also love to see hardware pg up / pg dn buttons on the device. They could easily be added as mirror buttons of the home/back buttons just on the right hand side. I use the device left handed (cursed as I am with that affliction) and I can promise buttons where your hand often rests is never an issue. If they don't add buttons they need to at least keep the ones they have. I don't buy apple's one button fanaticism. There are times when a well considered hardware button is exactly what a device needs. The n810 menu button is a perfect example. In fullscreen mode on an n810 the menu button means a title bar is not needed at all so you can reclaim otherwise wasted screen space. On iphone apps that do more then fart all have menu bars of some kind because presenting the user with options can only happen on the screen. That screen space is wasted (and hurts even worse since iphone is much lower resolution). Buttons for the sake of buttons don't make sense but the n810 is very close to my ideal layout. There are no buttons I don't use regularly and they are placed in very natural positions.

As a lefty I'd like to see them move the ambient light sensor as I have to disable it to use the device. If they don't it's not the end of the would but since 10% of people are left handed it would be nice to be considered for once. Every mobile device has at least one or 2 use cases where the design that is supposed to save time and effort ends up getting in the way. The n810 actually has the least lefthanded issues of any device I have ever used since I moved the scroll bars to the left using gtk themes and turned off the sensor so I hope the n900 continues in that tradition.

I'd also love to see some video out features, maybe as a breakout box like on the archos devices. Being able to play videos or show pictures on a tv would be great. A switch to microsd (and a switch back to dual slots) would be great as well since mini sd didn't really catch on. Most of the mini cards you can buy are just micro with an adaptor anyway so might as well save the space.

Having seen the freemantle sample screenshots I am slightly worried nokia is going to try and make the n900 an ipod touch maxi. The n810 is so much better then a touch since it has a real keyboard and so much more screen real estate. Switching to a capacitative touch screen would be a loss too as they suck the second you want to do anything with accuracy or have to wear gloves because it's -25 outside. I'd personally be much happier with a resistive screen since they work no matter what. I actually use the stylus on my n810 more for browsing then anything else since I click the link I want first try every time. On iphone (and n810 without the stylus) I find it takes a couple stabs. I'll happily take a stylus and accuracy over 2 or 3 finger jabs a minute to not have to keep track of a small bit of plastic. All that being said moving to more finger friendly widgets is a good idea and I'm all for it. I just hope they don't go too far and take away my choice. There are times when fingers beast and others when I prefer the stylus.

I wouldn't mind being able to buy a version without 3G as well as data is far too expensive here in Canada and I certainly won't be paying for everywhere access. It seems silly to have to pay for a radio I don't plan to use.

Finally I hope the community takes the opportunity of a sdk compatibility break to clean up the extras repo. I love being able to install all those applications but at the moment it's a bit of a free for all and some firmer guidelines would go a long way.

First I'd take a page from the debian team and add a third repo. extras-devel breaks too often to use day-to-day (as it should) and software in extras can often be quite old. The debian unstable, testing and stable model offers what I think is an ideal solution. extras-devel continues to be the place where developers are free to break what they will, extras-testing offers more adventurous users the chance to use newer software with less chance of causing problems with other software they may have and developers get more bug testing before unleashing software on the general community. Extras continues to be the place to go for community maintained software. Developers would get less "how come the extras-devel package isn't working today?" questions and since once they publish to -testing they are expecting user feedback not dreading it I suspect life would be a little smoother for both devs and testers. Software like tear is under heavy development and not ready for end users but for people with a little know-how it's usable day-to-day and sits uncomfortably between the current repos. The final reason to move to a third repo is end users get better tested final packages. Developers can't test all possible cases themselves and shouldn't be expected to. A few more hand and eyes make finding bugs a lot less tedious.

Second the software categorization could use some cleanup. Finding the packages either from maemo.org or the tablet itself is a bit haphazzard. And once software installs it never seems to end up in the menu I anticipate. Perhaps my expectations are off and others don't have this experience but if such an effort is underway (or needs to be started) I'd be happy to help where I can. Even just a review of packages as they are added to the freemantle repo for sanity and consistency would go a long way to making the community more user friendly.

A bit long winded perhaps. Reading over what I wrote it feels as though I like the n810 a lot less then I do. I love this device and really hope nokia don't mess with the great recipe too much trying to improve it. A few tweaks here and there, pop in a much more powerful cpu and I'll be first in line to pick one up.