Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Yes, you're right. Sorry, I forgot the N810 supported BT 2.0. 3Mbps.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

But we *do* have a pullout keypad with cursor and keys (N810).

So, if this (the pullout keypad) is to be a feature on the N900, then a full-face screen is neither a 'bad idea' nor a 'good way to reduce overall usability' as you'll have more than enough buttons on the keypad to keep you satiated; much more than could ever be comfortably crammed on device front.


I have very similar views regarding mobile internet.. More on that soon..



}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Another feature I'd personally like to see left out of the N900, especially as it seems to mean the lack of dual SD slots.

Which is just wonderful for you, but no IT device can manage to replace a dedicated cellphone for a lot of reasons which I (and others) have been over in this and other threads many times. Suffice to say that battery life, size (and ergonomics), access (WIMAX will never have the coverage of GSM), and durability all factor into my desire to have a separate phone.

I don't want the convergance device everybody seems to think would be cool. The technology just isn't up to snuff for that yet (and wont be for many years).

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Let me start out by saying, I'm not set on WiMAX per se. I intended WiMAX to refer to standardized wireless (and mobile) internet. It just seems as though WiMAX is heading in this direction. In the future I'll respond with "mobile internet."

...from a previous post.

Of course, until you remember that the thread and the conversation is geared towards a "future" solution, and not the "current" one.

Requiring a phone to provide mobile internet access to a device (N900) thats sole purpose is to connect to the internet especially if widespread mobile internet technologies exist, is really, really silly. I'd rather my mobile internet device have the ability to connect to the internet without requiring external devices.

For those that have the modern phones with data plans (I've already mentioned) this feature likely won't be as big deal to you; you already have mobile internet. But the jury's still deciding weather requiring a phone for mobile internet is superior to having the capability (WiMAX or other) built into the tablet itself.


Are you being sarcastic? Many devices *already* have redundant capabilities (phones/tablets included). It just so happens that some perform their capabilities better than others.

The devices value to an individual is determined by how closely the device meets the users needs.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Good point.

I should not have stated WiMAX specifically, but "standardized mobile data" with the ubiquity of GSM. In this case, yes, I would like at least one standard supported on the N900 if it remains a viable, cost-effective solution.

I agree. In the event that the market remains fragmented with different mobile data technologies, then an external device (or upgrade slot) would be the most appropriate solution. Future consumer devices will probably predict this trend.


Of course. I would be too! :)


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Then the N900 isn't what you should be discussing. The mobile data market outside of handset data is just now emerging, so a solution an ubiquitous does not and will not exist in the lifetime of the N900. Because of this, WIMAX on the device is mostly just going to be a waste of time and money.

Scope and timeframe are important issues. Yes, ubiquitous mobile data is a good idea, and, yes, I'd like to see it implemented in future ITs—but not before the market gets to a point where it isn't going to be more than a fancy decoration (especially for those of us with data plans).

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

As I stated above: I intended WiMAX to refer to standardized wireless (and mobile) internet. It just seems as though WiMAX is heading in this direction. In the future I'll respond with "mobile internet."


You misinterpreted my response and jumped to an incorrect conclusion. I'm not asking to 'replace' the mobile phone (although personally, I would likely do this). I'm simply saying that like you: I wouldn't want to lug around an external bluetooth keyboard to play quake *and* I wouldn't want to lug around an external bluetooth phone to connect to the internet with my mobile internet device. Perhaps today, but certainly not in a future device, if standardized mobile data access exists.


This isn't about convergence directly, but about internal mobile internet connectivity on a speculative device.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

This isn't a valid argument. You need to state the timeframe of the N900 and the timeframe of WiMAX to add much needed cogency to this argument.


I agree 100% with this. Since this is a speculative thread with no hard N900 release dates, I think we're on the same page.



}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I think, now, we come to the basis of our disagreement over mobile internet—semantics:

The N900 is probably coming around Q2 2008, too early for good WIMAX coverage. Because of this, I don't think it's appropriate to discuss WIMAX as a feature for the mainstream N900 model (a Sprint-branded specialty model might be something different). Perhaps "future NITs" should be substituted here.

As we've already established, WIMAX hasn't become the ubiquitous standard (and with recent shake-ups in Sprint, it might never), so "mobile internet" is a much better term.

The mobile date features you're discussing go beyond the N900's timeframe, this is where most of my disagreement with you arose.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Agreed. In hindsight, I should have paid more attention to my first post (namely: step 4 out of 5, and realistic) when speculating the N900's future "mobile internet" capabilities. Although I'd like to see it, I agree, that it's likely not realistic to expect it in late 2008.

In any case, I still love you, man! :)

There's a least one company manufacturing Wi-Fi radios in 2GB SD cards, so it would be nice if the N900 will have an upgrade slot (SD or other) and cards to provide additional connectivity options (GSM, WiMAX, WiBro, etc) for those that want more coverage and/or convergence!



}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I think I'll have to second most here wishing dual full-SD support in the N900.

There have been 32GB SDHC's announced implying future potential to store a whopping 64GB with a dual setup. Even a single card at this capacity would be a great boon to the already amazing tablet.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

(without having read all the pages)

On the very top of my list are:

* full USB support
I don't care about the implemented connector size or shape per se as long as there is an adapter to get it to a regular USB port size. Though in my opinion, there is enough room in the thicker part of the N800 to stick a regular USB port. It is a matter of priorities.
I want to be able to attach and use:
- a USB flash drive
- a USB printer
- a media card reader dongle
- USB GPS receiver

* better camera
Either place a 2 or 3 MP autofocus lens on the back face, or place a better camera in the the pop-up rotating camera.

* regular SD card slot

* improved screen for outdoor visibility

and other hardware improvements like considerably faster CPU (not marginally faster), double the ROM & RAM at least. Eliminate video bottleneck.

I have not been able to try the keyboard on the N810, but I would probably like that slide out keyboard in my next tablet. With the keyboard optimized for those with slightly bigger fingers. Right now it looks tight ... but it could very well be that regardless I could only type with one or two fingers.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

It's not intended for touch typing. You're only supposed to be typing with 2 digits, your thumbs. Although apparently the top row is too close to the screen to be very usable. I'm convinced that Nokia designers must shave their thumbs, as a number of their sliders have the same issue

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I'd like to see a Psion 3 style device. That had relatively large keys but the whole device could still fit in a shirt pocket. (Picture on wikipedia).
You could type with your thumbs standing up or put it on a table and type with a few more fingers.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I am fully aware that one is not going to touch type on a device that size.

It's just that, like traveller, I used to have some clamshell PDA / organizer (it wasn't an A-brand, so I forgot the name) and the keys were positive keys and spaced out a little; so that one really could feel the keys and you could clearly tap / press a single key. It was more like a miniature keyboard with actual keys and tactile than a flat continuous phone keypad. Think earlier Nokia 9xx0 communicator style. I also had a Targus thumb-pad on a Palm Vx and I could use its separated button keyboard fine. I'm just a little worried about that keyboard I see in the N810 image.

But, again, I admit that I have not used any of the most recent flat continuous keyboards ... and I understand it is a style thing too.

Seems at least some people are satisfied with the keypad on the 9500 communicator, so I'll just wait for more reviews on the N810 before I talk again about keyboard wishes ;)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

@traveller, @icerabbit

I, too, have used and loved the keyboard (and everything) about the psions, but fantastic though they are, I couldn't walk down the street while sending a message, or lounge comfortably in a chair and use one. they worked best when sitting at a desk, where you could place it on a hard surface and type naturally.

The only time I ever do this with my n800, I use a bluetooth keyboard, which is even better to type on than a psion. So for me, the idea of a slide-out keyboard is perfect, and I don't want the slide-and-tilt that a lot of people are asking for too. But I will have to test the spacing on the top row before I part with my hard-earned.

For some reason I never got on with the communicators. Probably because I first played with one after using a windows mobile device extensively, I just instinctively expected them to be touchscreen

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I certainly hope that Nokia is paying close attention to this thread! With today's announcement of the "GPhone -- Open Handset Alliance", there are going to be a SLEW of hardware manufacturers providing many different handsets all gunning for a rich internet experience; the tablets specialty. The platform apparently runs Linux (w/ java), and will be completely open.

Of notable interest, NVidia is part of the alliance, no doubt to offer a mobile solutions for accelerated graphics. With a standardized open platform, the industry could easily see rich 3D applications/games/user-interfaces with openGL support. Is ATI to follow?

Here's a link to the article: GPhone is Official, A Software Platform for Cellphones

What do you think the N900 needs (software and hardware) to compete favourably in lieu of this upcoming onslaught of fully functional internet devices?



}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

An OMAP 3430 with full driver support. :P

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Haha.. Tell me about it! I'm honestly shocked that the MBX chipset *still* isn't utilized.

To be honest, I think that if the GPhone platform really *is* open, it shouldn't be difficult to integrate it (libraries, base applications, etc) into the maemo environment, or replace maemo altogether.

I think the tablet needs very little to be a big contender in this race. It is such a balanced mix of good technology (the Nxxx screen is a huge deal). However, it needs 3D driver support, a faster bus (better video performance, etc), and more internal storage.

Also, lacking GSM means that many will pass over the tablet to purchase close substitutes (devices that can both surf the net and act as a phone).

Nokia apparently isn't a part of the alliance. I wonder what their market response will be.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

It depends: The Series 3xx were perfectly usable in thumbs only mode; the fives a little less so.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

@ Karel "Location: Belgium, but trying to escape"

Moet ik toch eens om glimlachen ;)

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

As I said over in the gPhone thread:

It's too soon to bet the farm on Android by replacing Maemo. But, Nokia would be prudent to join the alliance, and then adopt parts of Android.

A VERY good first step would be: port the android libraries over to maemo, add java, and whatever other infrastructure is necessary for running android apps on maemo. Then, no matter what applications get deployed for android, Nokia automatically benefits from it.


(warning, pun follows)

Then package it up, and call the package "Replicant" (an android emulator).

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

My smile is rapidly evaporating. I've digging tunnels since october 2005, and they keep caving in.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

The one thing that just blows my mind is nokia delivering the 810 with practically no secondary storage. The minimal for that sort of device should be 16 GB built in. Given the lack of two slots on this device it is unforgivable.

In any event I suspect that in a very short period of time 64 GB will be considered a base machine for these devices. Not that I expect hte nokia N800 series to be around long. Nokia has missed the boat on this one.

Dave

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

All this along with the development of OpenMoko means the tablets will have a tough future if they don't get up to speed with the rest of the worlds hardware. By this I mean the N800 series needs more than just Wifi communications. It needs access to the Cell networks and other up and coming technologies. It also needs better video hardware an a memory system that really is modern.
The possibilities are there but don't discount the possibility of outfits like Qualcom delivering some really sweet chipsets. There is a very strong possibility that some of the first devices delivered could have ARM processors approaching 1GHz.
This is easy.

The unit needs to thing out but maintain a form factor that is pocketable. Nokia needs to get serious about RAM and Flash storage. They also need to clean up the video system. Part of that cleaned up video would lead to a HD capable screen.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Ari Jaaski has mentioned in his blog, that the Tablet will be getting WiMAX support. It seems as though a number of companies are rallying behind this technology, and if popularized, will make mobile internet just as reachable as cellular. So I think that Nokia is heading in a good direction so far as future devices are concerned.

The rest of the hardware is very balanced, IMO. Any upgrades (besides the radio) will enhance the experience, but not necessarily introduce new possibilities.

I still think that the tablet could use more storage, though. As of today, it appears to be its Achilles heel. Sacrificing a bit of thickness would be a welcome modification if it increases the potential capacity to 64GB.


Certainly, there will be much competition on the horizon in terms of processing speeds which should gradually lower prices. Of course, Nokia can (and probably will) implement the software compatible OMAP 3410/3420/3430 in future devices. The current OMAP 2420 is a little work-horse that can natively be clocked to 1GHz, though battery consumption is likely a reason why it's currently limited to 400MHz. Perhaps we'll see proper driver support, bigger batteries, and increased speeds in the future...

Agreed. In addition, I believe that the Maemo platform should *prepare* for possible integration with other technologies. This includes pressure to acquire native java support. Since the 'Android' SDK beta will be released in 6 days, it gives developers plenty of time to mitigate future incompatibilities without sacrificing the current platform.

The sheer hype that follows google around almost guarantees a boatload of development on the new Android platform. It would be a shame if the future tablet wasn't compatible with the upcoming applications. I wouldn't be surprised if the Maemo software library looked tiny compared to the upcoming Android library in a very short span of time.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Agreed. Considering that the stack is supposed to be open (how open is still under debate) *and* running atop linux, porting should be a relatively painless operation. Java, on the other hand, could be trickier (I believe the compiler/interpreter is closed, though I could be wrong -- I know very little of Java).

I'm looking forward to looking over the Android SDK.



}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

i dont know if this has been posted, but a VIDEO OUT port would be awesome on the n900 - this device screams to to be portable demonstration device.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Indeed. This would be a great feature. Of course, it should be possible with USB-OTG given the right equipment. I know there are USB-VGA/USB-DVI devices out there. This device, for example uses USB to add a second monitor to your PC. The performance isn't great, but at a resolution of 800x600 with a reduced colour palette the performance was adequate; certainly enough for quick presentations/demonstrations/video. Of course, the internals will determine additional bottlenecks, reducing speed.

Does anyone know what the N800/N810's USB throughput is? I'm not sure how one would accurately measure this, but it would be interesting to see how close it gets to the theoretical 480Mbps spec. :P How about bluetooth or wi-fi?

I think video out is a great idea. I personally would rather use USB/Bluetooth as a connectivity method, rather than adding more ports to the device. Of course, this is assuming that performance is good. With new portable LED projectors, it would turn into a killer presentation machine, allowing you to carry the remote (Nxxx) with you, while you present.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Nice suggestion - this would be pretty killer for a lot of potential users.

Hey, does anybody with some php skillz want to put together a webpage with a table of all the features mentioned here, and a voting mechanism? If it's highly visible/promoted, i'm sure it'd be possible to collect a few hundred votes. This would provide a quantifiable resource to measure interest in different features. (understanding of course that some of these are mutually exclusive.)

As for my pet feature (gaming controls on both sides of display) i have to concede that they would probably be a kiss of death given consumer design-expectations we're seeing on these devices nowadays. The N810 and new Apple designs really convinced me of this. Would there be enough interest for three n9x0 form factors? 1) N800-like 2) N810-like 3) Gp2x-like?

If Nokia chooses not to embrace that market segment with the ITOS/linux platform, some users may prefer the the Gp2x-based Craigulator which could dominate the portable linux homebrew/emulation scene in 2008, while also providing debian-arm apps, wifi and 800x480 display.

To whomever posted the blender sketch for the touchpad/analog circular dpad, nice design - might be expensive or impossible to produce though. Whatever nokia delivers as the successor to the tiny press-to-click 4-way dpad, let's hope it's superior. The sliding spring-centered analog thumbpad (see youtube link i posted earlier) could really be perfect.

----
Re. SD gripes: ... for some people nothing will be enough will it? An N810 and 10 miniSd cards allows 80 GB of swappable media while your persistent data goes on internal 2GB. With battery-powered USB drives, there's practically no limit, is there? We know you have hundreds of gigs of media on your pc, and I am very proud of you. But please read this slowly: it won't all fit on any pocketable device.

Re. HD Video: ... given TI's OMAP 3430 capabilities, HD video will be hardware accelerated, as long as it's encoded to proper format.

Re. OpenGL: ... My feeling is: competition will be too tough in 2008 for Nokia to not include this on the N9x0. Anybody feel like placing a small bet against this?

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

Another vote for hsdpa/ 3g capability in the future tablets. Cell data technology is constantly improving and becoming more and more widespread. Leaving it out of a device where mobile internet connectivity is the selling point makes no sense. True you can connect to a phone but some telcos dont allow integration of voice and data into a single plan. then you will need to swap sim cards in and out? or carry yet another phone? not practical.

other wishes are:

*much more capable video performance

*better cpu tecnology that allows for near desktop quality applications and browser experience.

*3d gaming support

*ball type mouse support

*better battery life

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I've thought about this. I was thinking of going through all the posts, creating a spreadsheet and tabulating votes for the different feature requests. Putting them in graphical form would also be very nice. Hmm.. I could potentially hack together some PHP/Perl, but I'll check if there's an online resource that does this before I entertain the notion.


I agree that with simple modifications, the N900 can be a gaming rig. The idea of carrying around a library of Snes/Gen ROMS is truly exciting; the thought of playing shining force/final fantasy tactics on my N900 is drool-worthy.

I think that the gaming controls can be relegated to the slide-out keypad. It's already got a game-like setup. All it needs is durable raised keys that can *act* as gaming buttons in addition to their keypad roles. The d-pad can also be improved to take on the potential use as a game machine.

In this case, there's no need to kill the tablet's brand, but opens it up as a gaming unit.

Does anybody know how the N810 fares using the keypad as a gamepad?


Thanks for the link. I'm quite interested in learning about the software.


Haha. That was me. :D It's true, it may be an expensive setup (I'm not gifted in the dark art of engineering), but a novel idea in the least. I also like your "slide pad".

Whatever the case is, I hope for at least *one* solution.

Well said. This is the primary reason that I'm choosing the N810 over the N800. I doubt I will ever need more than 8GB of storage at a time. How many videos/songs can you listen to simultaneously?

Having to carry around an extra *tiny* easily wallet-able card is not so bad. How many videos can you watch at once? How many songs do you need at any one time? An 8G card should be enough to hold quite a few full length videos and another 8G a LARGE library of audio.

It would be nice to have more internal slots, but it's not a deal breaker IMO. In any case, the capacities of the removable media is only going to increase in the near future.


Agreed. It seems as if this will be the natural choice for the N900. Let's hope that there is adequate driver support for the Omaps DSPs. It would be a shame for software developers to have to fall back on the processors clock rate to 'accelerate' software.

Agreed. I'm really hoping to see support, and it seems obvious; but so did GL on the current platform.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

My vote is for GSM capabilities and a SIM slot.

Also, it would be really neat to develop a wireless BT headset that actually is part of the device. Something that stows away in a slot (like the stylus) and can be removed for voip/cell calls. It would also charge while docked in the n900.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

If they add GSM capability, I'd want it to be on the following terms:

a) completely unlocked -- no carrier deals, no carrier limitations; all or nothing

b) not at the expense of WiMAX. If you can't fit Wifi + BluetoothDUN + WiMAX + GSM into the device, then drop GSM.

c) I'd also put BluetoothPAN as a higher priority than GSM. Get Wifi + BluetoothDUN + BluetoothPAN + WiMAX working before even looking at adding GSM ... and only add GSM if you can do it without sacrificing any of those capabilities.

d) GSM service MUST be optional. Nothing on the device must _depend_opon_ nor _assume_ the presence of a GSM service. The only exception would be if they include an actual "phone" application (independent of Skype, SIP, and GoogleTalk) -- obviously that can be dependent upon the presence of GSM.

e) I don't know if this goes without saying or not, but I don't want it to only be HSDPA/HSUPA. There are some carriers and areas for GSM that are still EDGE only (might be some that are still GPRS only for all I know). It should be capable of "down-shifting" to those speeds/protocols if the faster ones aren't available.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

GSM would just open up a whole world of nasties that would kill the platform's appeal. FCC certifications for the cellular radio, carrier contracts, hardware compromises, expense. . . . It's a bad idea and I don't like it. :P

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

the only thing id like to see on a n900 is a much stronger cpu. id like to be able to start/run applications faster than the 3 yr old palm tx and use firefox just as quick or quicker than safari on the iphone, this includes ajax based sites and flash video.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I think that you actually want faster applications and not necessarily a faster processor. I feel that the tablets are currently more than capable of efficient, responsive applications. Bloated code prevents this in the majority of situations.

I agree fully that faster cpu speeds would be better, but I think that Nokia should optimize core applications (especially the browser). Adobe did it with the flash for the tablets, why can't Nokia for their own platform?


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

They start faster on PDAs because on PDAs the applications are in memory already. On the TX it's non-volatile memory, but still. PDAs use memory as storage, and PalmOS has execute-in-place. That's why such PDAs can start applications instantly. The N800 must first copy the application code from storage (even from flash it takes some time) to memory before it can be run.

If you want to compare the speed properly then you must leave the application running on the N800 and then measure how long it takes to de-iconize it. Because, this is very close to what a PDA actually does when you 'launch' it.

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

An example of a formfactor I've talked about before:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...5505#post95505

Re: What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
 

I see a lot of unrealistic requests so I thought I would add my very realistic requests for the next version.

More color depth. Increase from 64k to 128k or 256k color screen.
No change to design required just put in a better screen, everyone says the iphone screen looks better than the N800 and it is because the colors are better.

Include an accellerometer to determine how it is held and rotate screen accordingly. If the iphone and touch can do it why not us?

I have to agree with those that say we need the D-pad out where we can use it- just put it on the right side though.

Get a full working Java implemeted! Jeesh that's a no brainer.

Write a graphics library to use the hardware 3d functions. why not?