Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I'm new to this forum, and while I've been fascinated with the Nokia tablets since the 770 was first introduced, I've never investigated them too seriously, being rather stuck on the Palm OS devices that I've come to depend on over the years. Well, I'm not the first to say that I'm pretty well fed-up with waiting for the long-promised but never-delivered Linux-based update to the Palm OS (now promised in 2009 at the earliest), so I've come back to check out the Nokias.

My concern is the same as for a lot of Palm loyalists: how much software is out there for Maemo, and how much development work is going on? Will we soon have apps that will sync with our desktop PIM and office tools? What about "fun" stuff - you know, the apps you never knew you needed until you saw a snazzy web page and downloaded them?

Well, rather than ask you to predict the future, maybe I should stick to what's available now. Is there basic PIM capability, i.e. memos or notes, to-do or task lists, calendar, contacts? How well do any of these sync with any standard desktop apps, e.g. Outlook? These things are more important to me than apps that can display MS Office apps (although they'll be welcome, too).

thanks for any info and advice,
Bruce

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I recently purchased an N800 to replace an aging Palm Tunsgten C. One thing we really need to get straight is that the 770, N800 nor the N810 are not intended to be PIMs -- so you must set your expectations accordingly. Also, the software platform is not quite mature -- in the sense that some actions are doable by using fingers, but others require the stylus. You would think that the built in software would be designed to work in either finger or stylus mode but some buttons are too small to accurately select...

Just to give you an idea for the conversion, here is a quick outline of the main software packages I was using on the Palm and how I am currently handling its function under the N800.

On the palm, I was using
1) Dataviz' BeyondContact for PIM
2) Documents To Go for document viewing
3) SnapperMail for mail
4) Palm's WebBrowserPro for browsing
5) ZLauncher as the app launcher
6) QuickNews for RSS reading
7) JFile for personal databases

The applications have been mapped to the following maemo software:
1) GPE 2.8 -- I am using my own build with some minor enhancements (calendar, contact(modified to use a finger based telephone-like name search (see contactspro from http://www.MobiMate.com), file-manager (modified to view hidden files) and gpsyncd (modified to handle a number of character sets besides UTF-8 when importing) and erminig to sync with Google calendar.
2) I am currently working on a modified AbiWord to be used for this purpose, but the basic build of 2.5.2 (without hildonization) run pretty fast and looks very good. For spreadsheets, gnumetrics is very good. Just needs something to view powerpoints. The internal PDF viewer is ok.
3) I am using the default mail software (because it is tightly integrated in the GUI), but would switch to Claws-Mail if it could replace the built-in one (including GUI integration)
4) I use the built in Opera browser
5) I think the N800 launcher or "front page" is really, really weak -- what is this idea of a menu system to launch an application? I should be able to put my applications on screen and tab between groups. Right now I use the simple-launcher -- but I am looking at implementing a tab based launcher for chinook
6) the build-in RSS reader is lame and I only use it because of the desktop applet. I use Claws-Mail with the RSS plug-in to read it. Just wished it had a mechanism to refresh every x hours.
7) I am using gnumetrics to manage my databased. Not ideal, but it works. Will be looking at leveraging sqlite3 since it is used by GPE 2.8, but need a nice GUI front end.

So yes, migrating is feasible, but the functionality after the switch is not quite up to par to the commercial software that was available on the Palm. Obviously, it all depends on what you use the device for.

Hope this helps,

Robert B.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Thanks, Robert - that does help. It pretty well confirms what I'd suspected, which is that while Maemo on the Nxxx has a lot of potential, it's not quite realized just yet. I was a little surprised to read that the Nxxx tablets are not meant to be PIMs - maybe that's not their main intended use, but is there anything in their design (or in the design of Maemo) that precludes this functionality, if someone develops the software?

My requirements are actually pretty easy, since the only "application" I really depend on heavily on the Palm is the memos, believe it or not. I have hundreds of them, storing pretty much anything I've thought I might want to recall at a later date. I'd guess the built-in capabilities can handle that okay. Everything else is for fun, so in a sense it's all icing - but the more, the better, of course.

I'll have to check out the N810 whenever I can - I'm pretty much neutral on a hard keyboard, and GPS is slick, but not necessary. Meanwhile, I'll check out the N800 again.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Nokia's PIM&Sync does not replace Palm's PIM & Sync. GPE don't use original adressbook. Sytem programs don't see GPE's base. GPE PIM's is not integrated to maemo.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I have both a Palm device and a Nokia 700. I like them both; however, the answer to your question is easy for me. Do not buy a Nokia Internet tablet to replace a Palm PIM. You will be disappointed.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

i also have a palm T5 and a N800. I need to sync with Outlook (work calendar + contacts) and for some time i kept the palm because the N800 does not sync with outlook. However later i got a N76 (3G pphone) and i now use the N76 as PIM with sync with outlook (calendar,contacts, nootes) and i droped the Palm. The N76 is a good compliment to N800, and with bluetooth the two work well together. I use GPE PIM on N800 for personal agenda and sync with Google.

i use PasswordSafe on N800 to replace eWallet i had in the Palm. I just hope in the future OS2008 will suport Nokia N Series PC Suite and QuickOffice (these 2 applications were key for me to replace Palm by N76).

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

As everyone notes, the N800 is not a PDA. It's actually a palmtop, Linux-based, tablet computer. That means you can have whatever you want, one way, or another, and while it will not replace any specialized device with purpose-driven hardware, and software interfaces, it will do the job of almost all of them, and then some.

The key, I think, is to change your way of thinking. Most cell phones have reasonable PDA functionality, so move the calendar, tasks and alarms over there. For writing, note taking and so on, use the N800. I'm finding Google to be a good transfer medium. I have software (MyPhoneExplorer) that syncs my phone to Google, and an Extension that syncs my Thundirbird mail client to Google, and Erminig on the N800 syncs the GPE calendar to Google. Use the Google sidebar on your PC, and it gets pretty integrated.

BTW - I miss my T5. It died, and they replaced it with a laptop under extended warranty. For on-the-fly note taking, and calendar maintenance, the Palm OS can't be beat. Although, I'm enjoying using a PocketMod for the quick notes.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I continue to use the Palm calendar, as it's much better than anything I've found for the N800. I also use the Palm ToDo list, because of its simple efficiency. And lol, I just realized that I also rely on the Palm memos...! And finally I depend on a 3party application with no N800 equvialent yet. I never wanted to edit Word on either the Palm or the N800, so I'm not missing dataviz much. Still, I use my N800 constantly, while the Palm is used only occasionally.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

You raise good points, but here's the kickback from some users (self included): we disagree with the established position that the phone should be primary, and tablet secondary. I see no reason why I can't switch that around and do everything on my tablet, using the phone as an occasional modem, decent camera, etc. In that scenario, I want contacts consolidated on my tablet. Forget the phone-- it's a fancy modem.

A while back some of us proposed a new phone type: the high speed, bluetooth, camera-enabled, otherwise-stripped-down companion to the internet tablets. Man, I'd love to see that happen...

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

my verizon k1m (cdma version of krzr) is evdo, bluetooth, camera enabled and does exactly what u say- i went from a treo 700p to n770 and k1m i use google calendar/ical/gpe combo now and while a little kludgy works fine
the only thing i really miss from my 15 years of palm use is the find function. it was fast and accurate

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I also have a palm background many years. N800 is a great improvement in most areas, but the calendar department really lacks. Palm calendar really wipes the floor with GPE Calendar. The usability is from another planet, but the biggest flaw is that GPE Calendar chokes if you have a lot of events. At this point I have to wait 3-5 seconds every time I change the view (select another day, week, or month), edit a event or do pretty much anything with the calendar. It is intolerable, but I'm stuck with it as there aren't any other options. I really miss the palm calendar. It was lightning fast and super easy to use. :(

The funny thing is that I didn't even realise how advanced it was until I switched to N800, because the UI was so simple. I wonder if somebody could port it to Maemo ;)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

The PalmOS UI API has some things going for it: It's easy to make applications where you can tap on anything and it goes into edit mode, for example. No buttons needed.. I wish for a PalmOS UI API layer for Linux/X11.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

IT companion: I think Nokia 6300 nicely fit that description. Camera could be better though.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

There is one other possible consideration. Although the PDF reader on the Nokia770 is OK, it does NOT read encrypted PDF whereas Palm devices do. This is a big issue for me as I like to use the 770 as an ebook reader. Local libraries use DRM protection on their loaned ebooks, so as of this writing, only a Palm owner can take advantage of their libraries ebook lending services. (Yet another strike against DRM.)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

But Evince (aka "Document reader") handles password protected pdf's very well :-)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Agreed 100%. Also, all the arguments which merited the creation of an Internet Tablet: phones' screens are too small and crippling, data entry is poor, etc. - all apply to contact and calendar management on a phone.

So, if the Internet experience on a phone (and by that they mean web - just look at all the other Internet services we can access on a tablet) is so poor that it resulted in the creation of a new device type (apparently), why not the poor state of PIM software on a phone?

My phone is nowhere near as powerful at PIM as any of my Psions, for example.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

My history with PDAs began with the HP100LX, and in a lot of ways it's been downhill ever since. Even though the 100LX was just a pocketable XT clone, it was designed from the bottom up for the user and provided a bulletproof PIM suite. To this day, I haven't encountered a PDA with as much thought put into it.

Anyway, my point here is that, over the years, I have migrated my PIM data to a WinCE platform (the horror =:O), then to a PalmOS 3 device, then to a Zaurus. I thought the Zaurus was the worst platform for PIM apps until I encountered the N800. Not only did I learn that the N800 was never meant to seriously support PIM apps, I also ruefully came to understand that mobile Linux probably will never come close to realizing the bright future previously forecast for it. Even though the N800 was never meant to be a PIM device, I wrongly supposed that a reasonably technical person such as myself could eventually adapt existing apps on the N800 to my purpose.

So I have reverted to a PalmOS device with its non-multitasking, hacked-up OS and its dead-end architecture. Because it does what I want, very well. Indeed, it:
- will let me connect through my cellphone via BT, where the N800's osso-ic internet-connection engine wouldn't (bug #1149), and where Nokia would neither fix osso-ic nor open up osso-ic;
- will deal with my calendar appointments and alarms predictably and intelligently, and ALWAYS notify me with a clearly audible sound;
- seems to have available a much wider range of reasonably functional (i.e., not constantly broken) corpus of software.

After a comment like this, I imagine I'll not be welcome here. ): Nevertheless, I thought belliott4488 deserved to hear from "the other side".

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Yes. A palm top computer should be able to do pim and web browsing and media and whatever else. I used a palm for several years and my biggest need currently not being met is todo software. I have been working on updating it. I was planning on doing some profiling becauase the responsiveness is bad. FYI there is a palm emulator called POSE. My experience was it was slow for things like todo and it hogs memory but maybe these can be improved upon. It will sync with hotsync but it is an older version of the OS which requires SW for things like todo recurrence.

There are also capabilities n800 has that aren't being used like alarmd or maybe even cron for people who have it installed that should be incorporated. I think more mods to take advantage of Nxxx capabilities and even perhaps a complete redesign with a lighter UI or better DB usage is needed for GPE to make it more responsive. I do not know on the latter without some profiling.

Also, if you are looking to edit your PIM information on a desktop x11vnc can work nicely for that.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Personally, I won't be getting rid of my Treo anytime soon, but I'm definitely considering the N800/N810 almost as a "Foleo-lite". I want something with a larger screen (for books, web mostly) better web browser, something that has GPS built in or that I can attach a GPS to because you can't navigate and take a call at the same time on the Treo, and that can be used for Gizmo/ VOIP calls.

My Treo will still be kept with me at all times for PIM and push-email, but for the extended trips, so would the N800/N810 (having trouble deciding which still).

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Of course you're welcome! Thoughtful, objective, well-reasoned criticism is great. It's the rambling, ranting "oh-make-sure-to-look-at-me" complaints that old-timers have little patience with. ;)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

As a onetime palm user I would say it is time. Palm is always saying they will get their OS finished "next year" and that time never comes.
I do have some concerns about what I see as a lack of available programs and developer support however it does what it does very well. I used to like to be able to play card games on my palm and practice my game but I see no card games available here and the games they do have remind me of what I ran on my commodore. I'm hoping things will improve after 0s2008 is released.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

see this card game:
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/g...mes_aisleriot/

and try also wesnoth. i love it. this is a strategy game

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I love my Treo 700P, but I'm seriously thinking about ditching it in favor of a minuscule bluetooth phone...a Razr or something similar. Sprint's EVDO on my N800 is awesome, and anything PIM-wise I'm doing on the Treo (admittedly, not much) can be replicated with a combo of open-source apps and Google.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Well, change bluetooth to wifi, and remove the camera ... and I may have found something that will fit the bill:

mobile/cellular routers

Look at the last product I mentioned. Once they have the battery powered and GSM compatible version, it could very well do the trick.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

This is precisely the trap I fell into, the mistake of wishfulness about mobile Linux as a consequence of impatience with Palm's progress. Words like "I'm hoping things will improve after 0s2008 is released" are solid evidence that you're kidding yourself and walking away from something that works toward something that doesn't, and doesn't offer any assurance of ever working. My experience with Nokia's "commitment" to OS2007 told me everything I need to know about the future of Nokia's Internet Tablets.

P.S. Many people drop serious money on a mobile computer only when they hope to get more from it than solitaire games.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Games? What about flash? http://www.flash-game.net/game/1996/...hold%27em.html is at least one example.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Agreed, 100%. I have been much happier with the n810 after I gave up on the idea of it replacing my Palm T5.

So... the n810 is an expensive toy, basically. It's a great toy, make no mistake, but do not expect it to be as useful as a $200 Palm.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I have had a Palm for years and years, and cell phones for most of that time. I currently have a Palm T5 and Motorola RAZR. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that anyone would use their phone for calendar and contact management.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

*For PIM. ;)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

If that is your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it. But I place no such qualifier on my opinion. In my opinion, the n810 is not as useful as a $200 Palm.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

I'll side with GeneralAntilles here.
I'm starting to accept that my N810 isn't ready to replace my TungstenC
for datebook and contact information. But for book reading, web surfing,
and VNC control of the laptop running my sound system, the N810 is finally
successful at things that were pretty much proof-of-concept on the Palm.
When next I go on tour, I'll be bringing one laptop instead of two or three,
and that one will travel in the fllight case. My shoulder feels better already.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Although the lack of proper PIM functionality on Maemo is a bit ridiculous there is some hope on the horizon - KDE4 is cross platform, which might mean we see tablet optimized versions of the organizer etc. Of course, perhaps someone at Nokia will be embarrassed enough and finally give us a working calendar with sync on Windows and OS X. For now, I carry an old TX and an N800.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

It almost works on a SE P910i.

Almost.

My dream is still to have a phone the size of one of those keychain bluetooth modeules, and a tablet like the N800 -- but with decent input and a non-joke user interface -- to do everything but the simplest of calls.

A data plan that wouldn't cost more than my current ADSL Internet connection wouldn't hurt either...

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Check out T-Mobile. I have unlimited GPRS data through them at a very reasonable price.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Not to get too tangential, but what do you think of the TX? I came very close to returning my n810 and buying a TX instead (I had the n810 boxed up and ready to go), but the b-only wireless in the TX gave me pause, and I decided to keep the n810 anyway. How often is the TX's b-only wireless an inconvenience to you?

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

TungstenC is an amazing crap. It's the most unstable stuff I've ever seen. How many times did I have to do a hard reset just because I went on this or that website. They should have put the hard reset button on the front cover, would have been more usable.
I was very very disappointed by it. I don't even know where it is in my house...

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

The browsers are all unstable. The Palm is not.
It's not a general purpose computer.
Use it as it's intended, and you'll never need the reset button.

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

i have been thinking about a similar setup since the day i first read about a design concept by frog design, ordered by motorola.

the phone was a item in your pocket or on your wrist. talk and disply thru sunglasses, input via pen on paper and so on. everything connected via bluetooth.

if one could crunch the phone into a device the size of a avarage bluetooth gps module, things would really be interesting ;)

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Have been following this discussion with interest. Sounds like a number of former Palm users find GPE lacking in comparison. May I ask why? Syncing is clearly an issue (although robust two-way syncing with Google calendar would seem to go a long way towards addressing that issue if it could be ironed out). Tight integration with other apps (e.g. email) is also clearly lacking at this point. But what else do Palm users miss with respect to the PIM functions? I owned a PalmPilot long ago & don't recall it doing spectacular things--but I never relied on it heavily. Nowadays I have an employer-supplied blackberry and the integration with my (work) desktop Lotus Notes calendar is quite useful--I can appreciate the value of this.

Re: phone integration, while this is of litttle use to those outside the U.S., I've been very happy with the connection between my Samsung M510 (Sprint) and the Nokia. The BT tethering works great, EVDO is nice, the phone is pretty slim and can stay in my pocket. Standing alone, the M510 is not necessarily anything to write home about, but it has plenty of features and it integrates quite well with the Nokia (and it's cheap (="free" with contract)).

Re: Palm user: is it time to move to the Nxxx?
 

Using the Palm feels like stepping back in time 5 years in comparison to the N800 experience. The connectivity on the N800 is much better and with the extra screen size the connectivity is much more useful. I only use the Palm for scheduling (DateBk), contacts and to dos. The TX is large for what it does - I prefer the no-longer made T3. Unfortunately none of the available calendars (Dates, GPE, KOrganizer) currently comes close to the usability of DateBk and the "it just works" Palm synchronization.