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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Handful-
Excellent work. This continues to be a leading UI framework for the Maemo platform. In watching the video, I had some thought about the menu UI. Using the grids is a great enhancement to the previous methods of interface. However, once you are in a sub-menu (2nd level), the UI goes back to "arrow" interface mode again--the icons on the left and right of the screen go to the next and previous sub-menu (2nd level). This is certainly better than simple arrows, since it give the user information about which menu will display next. But...I wonder if you can make it even better. Instead of two icons (left and right), can you make a smaller grid or maybe a column of the icons from the top-level menu? I can imagine a few ways this could work: 1) "Parting the Red sea" method: The top-level menu icons get shrunk and split to two columns on the left and right of the screen, with the sub-menu displayed at full size in the middle. 2) One-side/"dock" method: The top-level menu icons get shrunk and positioned on one side (or along the bottom, like a dock) This technique would allow the user to get directly to the menu they wish, rather than (potentially) having to click the left/right icons multiple times. Another idea would be to have a "home" type button on all menu screens, which would jump the user back to the top-level menu, instead of having to press "Back" multiple times. (Yes, this idea is similar to the iPhone "home" button, but it would a UI-button rather than a hardware button) I must admit that I do not yet own a N800/N810 (though my birthday is coming, so I think that will change! :D), so I do not know if these ideas are practical given the small constraints. Obviously, the more icons in a given menu, the smaller the shrunken versions would have to be in the lower-level menu. But it seemed like most menus would have a maximum of 6 icons in the grid, judging from your prototypes. |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hi Slip : (thanks for the suggestion )
I will try to explain the whys and answer some of the points =) 1. Actually you can always hit "back" on any submenu to go to first part. 2. You also can hit home (in the hardware menu - the menu button does this work) 3. you can also hold the back button (hardware or software) ***the only problem that appears here is that in the N810 nokia placed the menu button on the keyboard ( :( ) and I really don't wanna mess with the maemo home button. So I really don't know what to do with it. And I need to agree not only with you but with something clear : a home button is something global, and should be hardware. why? imagine you.. needing to reserve a good space ( touchable, easy, and with no danger around) to home in EVERY screen. yes, we did that and it sucket a lot on first one. Thats why there's no visible home. About the "arrow mode back" It's actually just a short cut, if you by mistake touched the wrong ball (it will be side ways) you can just touch the correct one without needing to touch back. So we do not intend to make people actually cross the whole interface using it. it's more like "spreading wings" menu but still gives you access to the neighborhood items =) If this becomes a failure : / we can remove it with no problem :);) how the whole thing works : We wanted flexibility, if not for canola for the menu component it self. So theres 1 menu with 2 levels righ? The main menu and sub menu. The main menu can scale up to 12 items. the inner menu can scale up to 10 items. This would give us a whooping 120 item ready menu. WE ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT. but this flexibility is really nice to have (if we need to reuse the component in any other of all our projects) So, the ideas is to have like page with sub pages, and you just need to hit back if you don't want that. You approach, yes great indeed but will not scale too much for more items, and worst if you reduce to anything smaller than 50px square is already a error magneto. We want precision in most of the screens, so after a lot of testing we found the best relation between size x successful hits. So take a look in the seconf video to see a 12 icon screen =) but as you said : Quote:
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not =) but you will be able to use it and make your decision! I hope you like it, and I can guarantee : we did so much menus this time... =) but we really don't want to collide with any screen now and in the future, so this approach seems nowadays quite nice for our problems. I will try to find some of the sketches of the menus like you said (I think the dock version we did) but not the "Parting RED sea" good naming on that =) Thanks for the suggestion, I think we are really happy to see you guys contributing before the thing comes out (actually it was almost made on top of feedback). BR |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
As requested by Gustavo (lol) Just to make sure that I don't promise here something that will not be delivery on december =)
Canola will be the simple version (with the old version + configuration inside canola) that's it! everything else is a pluy! eheheheh That's it Gustavo : p |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
AD2P Support and AVRCP Support Please...
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Quote:
http://andrunko.blogspot.com/2007/11...on-canola.html |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Wow. I so want that keyboard.
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Ah, nice! N800 owners would like that keyboard!
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
So is there 3d acceleration on the n800/n810 and will it be ever used??
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hi Again Zero :
The default keyboard is the original. We are not crazy =) To do a fully usable keyboard takes a lot of time, and of course in our case help to support foreign languages (we do have pro-level on Pt_br) So don't worry with that. And actually that's a developer's demo, there's not UI work on it, and I can make sure to you : the final keyboard (maybe only next year) will be 10x better then this demo =) But of course keyboard is almost like a habit, if people like the old one, they have the option to stick to it without leaving canola (settings -> General -> keyboard) Reggie : I think a lot of people will prefer the bigger keys instead of context. For me, I really like context and I know some people also do, to enable more UI experiments the new keyboard is needed, and will be available for those who like to experiment the new things. =) |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
When I tried out Gustavo's demo, I thought it achieved a nice balance between key size for thumb-typing ease, and leaving enough screen real estate to also see what you're typing : a middle approach, in a way, between the small and the full-screen Maemo keyboards.
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
I love canola, the new release looks great and I cannot wait to install it on my 770 and start playing! One question though, how is the configuration database going to be stored, my one frustration with the current version is when you flash the device with a new OS you lose all your configuration settings and have to reenter them again. I also think I read somewhere that it would come preconfigured with a lot of internet radio and podcasts, is this true?
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hi Guys, just got out of the plan, little dizzy cause I couldn't get any sleep but here goes the answers :
@fpp : Yes, definitely the size is nice and we are working on the graphics and a little bit better positioning (and some missing keys) to complete the experience. What I really wanted when talking to gustavo was to have context. He then at the time surprised me with that keyboard in his spare time (actually he did more patches to evas then code for the keyboard). So I think it's again a nice option to experiment different usages on the NITs. @Jer : You have written something pretty interesting. What we really wanted to do was to be able to have an application on the desktop that could take care of synchronizing / backing up everything but this is just impossible for us now (we tried in the past with synchropated but it didn't went to far because we focused on Canola) While I cannot promise anything I think Gustavo will agree that this could be solved with a simple (backup settings to file) and then you can just copy the file back to canola folder or something, but this is dependent pretty much on time and we lack this. Anyways is one of the best suggestions for sure. I will talk to gustavo today about this, but as he asked me I will not promise anything. For podcast / rss we learned that typing sucks. Having to copy the feed from a browser to the other browser window etc it was a drag and a lot of users could not grasp it. We have a plan to solve this, but if it comes to reality will only work in the new browser (the mozilla based one) with extensions. Yes, we do plan to ship with a selection of podcast, radios and if possible a little bit more media. =) |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
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Thanks very much to the team. |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Kozzi,
Thanks for the word (on behalf of the team) and I repeat here what people might also have forgotten : Our main goal, is above canola. Is to make Maemo a great platform for the IT and the IT then get a LOT of applications that brings a LOT of users. this generates market, then IT will evolve even more, and we have a open and incredible platform to hack on! In the end, is all about choice: you can use UKMP (it's opensource, has party mode, reflections, even deleting tracks) or even Kagu (I think it's the same feature set) or Canola, there's another media player coming. I wish this "variety" were present also in the other applications. While this happens, we also keep python in great shape (so UKMP and Kagu and Canola can trust it) carman is evolving a lot (LGPL) mamona is a nice experiment platform based on maemo, we still have some small games since the 770, we helped on Videocenter, media converter, and a lot more. So please, send all the critics, we really like nice words (it's the fuel) but critics are the basis to find / categorize and solve the problems. BR |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hey handful, well the new release have AD2P support and AVRCP support if possible? This would be really useful to me. I prefer Canola to Kagu and UKMP, but I really want bluetooth headphone support.
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
So, when will Canola be free software (in the FSF sense)?
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Sorry if this question was answered before (it has already been asked in this thread): Will there be ogg support?
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Is it possible for Canola to auto-download missing covers/Cd-labels from Internet, i.e Amazon for media files ?
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hei guys,
@Beni : Ad2p is available indeed (actually is not Canola or any Softwares job, mplayer takes account of that) as we officially supports Mplayer, so we do for the ad2p. The only thing is that you will need to play music also using mplayer (like in the other softwares that :"support" a2dp the AVRCP seems to be missing in the bluetooth stack of the platform, so seems that in this one we will not be able to help (now, but we do have guys working hard on bluetooth), BUT if there's a possibility to support AVRCP we will try to do it as fast as possible (as it is really nice and useful for those with stereo bluetooth headsets) @Chrno : The "dreadful" question. If you read about this in the previous Canola you probably saw a lot of "managers" don't want we to do it right? So Canola is not going to be FS. BUT if you take a look in what we did, you will realize that most of canola is more than open source, and better is giving back everything to community, not recreating stuff, or trying to create communities around things. 1) EVAS 16 bits / EFL / ETK + python bindings for all of this : completely open, commited straight to the E project source. 2) Scanner : it was canola only and gave some people some headaches : also completely open, and actually the other media players will be able to use it and improve it. 3) Canola is almost totally written in python =) 4) the closed part will have fully documented API to support FULL support of independent plugins. As I said, there's choice, so if OS is crucial for someone, we are sorry to not be able to fulfill it, but we do have commercial plans (not related to canola but to it's new framework) and if we release it we are not able to make money that actually keeps canola project, and canola alive. But we are not only opening what we can, but also try to maintain the other projects as open as possible (like Carman - lgpl, Python, Mamona and so on ) I know it sucks, but the reaction to this already happened : people created open source alternative to it, and now people have freedom of choice. The only thing we can guarantee is : we are 100% ethical with Canola, so no malicious software / logger or anything exists or will. About not being able to supply people's need is also going to be over : not only we will maintain Canola alive, but also user requested will be developed as plugin based on request number, and the best : If you have something you want to use, you can actually do the plugin to use it easily. We are not going to "limit " the 3rd party plugins. @borghal : MorpheusZ is the best guy to answer : but again : Ogg support is actually external to Canola in most of the senses, but we do have changes this time that you don't need to rename them to play like in the old Canola. So if you have ogg support installed, you can play ogg on canola. @Kozzi : Take a look at the video =) the first one, the final part. Sorry it was in portuguese but here goes how it works : While in the Album art view , if you don't have an album art, just drag the album art to the right, and we will dowload suggestion for you ( for those cases that the same music / album has multiple versions / singles etc ) and you can actually choose the correct one. I personally don't like the "mass album art download" that the other players uses because : 1. it's quite heavy 2. brings a lot of wrong thing (sometimes even porn) 3. doesnt allow you to change if it's wrong. So you can download, change etc easily. To watch this : http://blip.tv/file/494477 1:54 approximately. *actually this changed a little bit (and it's on the album view not on the player) the player will show the music listing on the player. Hope this answers =) Marcelo |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hey,
thanks for thinking about the backup/media setup for Canola... Would it be possible to allow configuration of canola to be also done on a PC/remotely where you could then upload/import it to your tablet taking the emphases off of data entry within the tablet initially - currently its done through a web page, you could potentially connect the browser on the PC to the tablet and make all changes easily? The copy and paste method of setting up internet radio stations and podcasts works pretty well for me (even on a 770) it just sucks to have to reenter it after reflashing your device - would be nice to have a DB already configured upon installing Canola initially... P.s. the new keyboard looks great, it will be interesting to see all of these changes within canola. Big time looking forward to the beta release! |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
handfil, thanks for your reply, this is great news indeed. :)
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
handful
more ghan anything i really like your enthusiasm!! |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Ogg support sounds great, this might replace my cowon d2.
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
hi guys : the buddies in the team did a video of the 770 running the new vesion.
I personally think it's better than we actually expected, but you can see where small "cpu hogs" happens (photo mainly) But in other sense you can see how smoothly the animation becomes when the tearing is gone. This is actually good news for us, because it shows that a slower cpu does the trick, and in the newer devices is not cpu usage that makes the "flickering" http://www.marceloeduardo.com/blog/d...d-from-etrunko |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
A copy/paste of my comment on Etrunko's original blog post :
"Looks fantastic ! This Evas+Edje+Python combination seems incredibly efficient... Now I know what my retired 770 is going to be used for ! :-)" Also, Eduardo just promised Canola2 as a Christmas present :-) |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Yeah, I will not lie, the team is really tired, but we do keep our word (actually last year we were delayed 11 minutes) this year we will not be delayed.
Ah forgot to say that : you can actually see that the screen sensitivy is really problematica.. so I asked the guys to add some more hardware control (basic scrolling / music controls) that if they make it to the release it will really help the use on 770. Well, another good news now approved by the "man"= ) We are going really to have public roadmap for at least 2 versions ahead. So in Launch date, you guys will already now the improvements on january and february version. Of course january we will not go too big on features because there will be bug fixes and we will focus on those, but february is going to be a nice addition of features that we really want but the deadline unfortunately will let it out. BR! |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
I just turned on to this Canola thing and I'm really excited to see where Canola2 is, and that it's being released in just a little more than a week. Very exciting stuff. I'm most excited about the podcast support. Anyone know if Canola2 will support auto-downloads? What about video-podcasts?
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hi Weatherman!
The podcast we are tailoring to be a complete podcast app. So please forgive if some crucial thing is missing in the first release, but we will be fast in providing fixes for this. Podcast is a crucial feature and we will improve this as much a needed. For now, I don't think we will place the auto download options, because you can be connected to GPRS which can generate costs, but we will try to give you a configuration setting to allow you to set up that in a really near future. Video podcast are going to be in a very brief future release. But anyone can actually do one so fast with python, that I believe someone is going to do it faster than us =) I know it's sad not having this things now, but that's really now the reality of being a beta, and once we have the basics quite solide (and for that we need user feedback) then we are going to make more solid podcast, and new features will also appear. As I said, we will have an open roadmap, so please let us know what you guys want, bugs you find, because this will drive the roadmap. BR |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Podcast support of any kind is much appreciated, and from what little I've seen C2 will do most things that I want right out of the gate. My thought was just that ultimately it would be nice to have an auto-download feature like the PSP has, where it wakes itself up at a specified time and downloads the latest podcasts and vidcasts if there's a wifi connection. But that's a pure wishlist item, and I understand that there are a lot of features already in there and a lot more that are probably charted already on the roadmap. I'm happy to wait for future releases.
Keep up the good work! |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Yes,
I think it's just a fact of not downloading if charges the user =) but I think this will be easy (to identify) if it's wifi or bluetooth gprs connection =) But for sure, It's great to hear request, as they help us a lot =) |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
I'm really excited waiting to see Canola 2 in my 770. I really am glad that you still consider 770 worth keeping up to date, though it must give you a lot of extra work. Thank you for that.
I now use 770 for Vagalume (last.fm), controlling MPD on a Debian Slug connected to my stereo and Canola for Internet radio and mp3 streamed with Twonkymedia. Is there any support for MPD in Canola2/ could MPD support be added to the wish list? |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Hi MRP,
For sure. I cannot not guarantee that we will have time to do it, but I can add to the final website once the developer's documentation is there. And once theres is already a python library for it, I really believe it could be quite easy to browser and play something. We also have plans for Last.fm (first audio scrobbling, using maemo scrobbler) then more, but this will be added after a solid fix is made =) there's so much thing that is out of this first beta that you wouldn't believe. But we still excited. The dev team is quite tired, they will get some rest but they will come back with a lot of surprises. Br |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Well, its time for release, and lo and behold .... no download still.
Come on all this countdown and all, and then back to the old fashioned 'sorry we cant release as yet, not ready' notice on the website .... dissapointing. So why have a countdown at all - might as well have stuck to the old fashioned verbiage - "we will release when we are ready". Well wait some more ... Just dont take it otherwise, but my post is idicative of how much we looked forward to Canola release and how dissapointing this news is.. |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
The launch has been postponed due to license issues. Check the update:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/20...ches-tomorrow/ |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Nil :
You have the total right to complain, exactly because we placed a counter on our pages. And the only thing I can say about that is : that we not only really believed that the day would be kept, but we also worked like crazy to meet that crazy deadline. If we knew one week earlier I would have asked the counter to come down. We actually don't have marketing dep, or any kind of this, so I asked one of my team mates to do a teaser, and because I "confirmed" twice the launching date ... I thought "well, let's make a small countdown" because when there's a dead line we really keep it. Like we did last year. Then this "outer" force came and paused the launch. I assume 100% of the guilty for the counter and the whole issue, because the Devs were really focused on delivering and we just wanted to make them proud of the website. So again: Sorry for that, and lesson learned. If we cannot triple check a release date, we will not display any kind of date anymore. Just like you said "a coming soon". BR Marcelo, On behalf of the team |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
All apologies understood and accepted in good faith, handful.
But more so I appreciate the spirit of openness from you guys and the dialogue with the community. The fact that you explained in so many word ... I am floored. Allbest and I am still behing Canola and waiting (with a better feeling) :-) |
Re: Canola Update Alert!
Any estimate on an ETA? Disapointed in the delay but still really looking forward to a great product! Or are you reluctant to go there again??
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Re: Canola Update Alert!
See this thread for more infor
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=13017&page=8 |
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