Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I'm hopefully going to have my first IT tomorrow (fingers crossed). Being an ex-Newton user, I was wondering whether it is worth my time persevering with the handwriting recognition on the N800? I had the HWR on the Newton 2100 working very sweet, plus I became very quick at writing in Graffiti on a Palm (Graffiti 2 was a big mistake). After searching the forums, it seems most people here give it a miss.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

As another ex Newton user, it's the biggest abomination of HWR you can imagine. It's like worst of Graffiti (with the limited entry area) and the terrible god-awful recognition of the Newton 100 (but worse ;))—it's about as bad as it could be.

Learn how to use them thumbboard well and you'll better than a good handwriting pace (30-60wpm).

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Much appreciated. I guess I didn't realise how good we had HWR with the Newton :-)

At least I know now to not waste any time with the N800's HWR and spend more time on other things.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

The HWR in OS2008 has been greatly improved.
I've never used Graffiti and sure it does not follow the same approach, but in OS2007 I tried to use the N800 HWR and it was useless.
In OS2008 I assure you it is far more usable and far more reliable.

Give it another shot, it's a new product.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Yeah . . . no. Better? A little, but stile a very far shot from the perfection that was the Newton's HWR.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I can't compare (and I think we should not) with the Newton's HWR.
Almost no other device out there is comparable to that one.
That's what we have today.
Still I did switch to the HWR on the OS2008 and it recognizes many of my letters even without teaching it how I write them (I have to tell it about my 'g' tho).
Os2007 was a real pain where you know the pain usually goes ;)

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Isn't the Hand Writing portion of Maemo open source?
I would like to think it will mature with age and/if more devs decide to have a crack at it OSS style.

That said, the only thing I would really like to see is allowing transparent hand writing over the text fields in web browsers when in hand writing mode.

Then you don't need to bring up a giant box to write in all the time...

-Rip

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Why would Nokia release a tablet + keyboard and work really hard at improving handwriting recognition at the same time? It doesn't make much sense.

It's hard to believe they could beat or match grafitti anyway. But I'll try to give it a try...

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I'll be holding off on upgrading to 2008 until it comes out of beta. It would be cool though if you could write directly into text boxes. That was an awesome feature of the NewtonOS (and I'll do my best not to compare too much).

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

As a veteran of HWR back from the original Newton Messagepad I have to say I find the HWR on OS2007 quite usable. There are some tricks to making it so. One is to write your letters much further apart than would be natural, another is to change the way that certain letters are formed (I had a problem with the letter 't' for example).

As an input method its slower than using cursive recognition (a la Newton or Windows Mobile) I but I do prefer it to either of the keyboard based input panels.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Yes, but have you ever used the 2000-series? ;)

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I usually enter text with the full screen keyboard.
OS2008 is faster then ever and with the full screen keyboard I am quite fast.
And I can use it on the move.

Whenever I need to use the small one, I prefer the HWR of the OS2008 than tapping small letters on the virtual keyboard.
Only drawback: i need to learn about some non-letters chars and I need to teach it some letters.

I repeat here myself: I was unable to use the OS2007 HWR at all. I find the OS2008 way better than OS2007 on this matter.

Personal taste of course ;)

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Time for me to chime in, I guess.

Yes: Comparing the Newton's HWR to that of the Tablet, is like comparing a fine-tuned engine to a squid. And for someone coming straight from NewtonOS, the shell-shock experience is really really bad. The Tablet's HWR sux. It's not good. A Newton user won't like it. It's bad, m'kay?

[gasp gasp]

That said, I find that, after a considerable amount of training (me getting used to the computer, that is), it's actually not too bad for short text entries. I have now accustomed myself to using the (for lack of a better description) HWR for short entries, the big thumbboard for somewhat more extended stuff and my BT keyboard for lengthy text entries.

That doesn't mean I'm not pining for the days when I used my Messagepad for writing entire articles and stories. We've come a long way -- backwards.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Never used a Newton so I can only speak relative to the tablets and the handwriting recognition is much better in OS2008 than it was before to the point of I might actually attempt to use it for a bit and see if I like it. I've have gotten pretty proficient with the thumb board so I might be wasting my time.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Thanks for the input folks :-) I'm might give it a shot once OS2008 comes out of beta. I was quite spoilt with the 2100 I had, as I managed to get virtually no errors with the HWR. In the meantime I guess I will be getting to grips with a whole new OS and a new way of doing things.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I would disagree. The start of this thread asked ex-Newton folks to compare to the Newton HWR, so many have provided their feedback.

It is very unfortuante, that folks accept the current state of HWR. I think we should all strive for HWR ala Newton, and be critical of anything less. After all, it has been 10 years since the Newton 2100 was released, and still the state of open source HWR is weak.

Craig...
Former Newton 2000/2100 owner, and happy N800 owner (but not using the HWR).

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

This

http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/

is a nice page about the N800, by a Newton guru (everybody on Newtontalk knows about Sean Luke!).

AFAIK he doesn't mention about ITOS2008 (yet), but the changes Nokia implemented in 2008 are rather immaterial to his criticism on Maemo anyway.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

The really sad side of it all is that ParaGraph, the Newton's cursive HWR engine, lives on as a standalone Windows program, PenOffice/CalliGrapher.

http://www.phatware.com/penoffice/index.html

I bought the multilingual version and have it installed on a Fujitsu XP tablet. It really is almost as good as on the Newton -- the main differences are in the annoying fact that Windows itself is not pen-aware at all and stuff needs to be done via popup menus, that in the Newton was done with a simple gesture.

Phatware -- I hasten to add -- is apparently not at all interested in porting their software to anything but Windows (maybe this was part of a secret Apple/Inkwell agreement?), so Linux users are out of luck.

I recently came across another, Linuxbased, HWR text entry system, Cellwriter:

http://risujin.org/cellwriter/

It's obviously nothing like the Newton, but its clearly defined, cell-based entry system might actually be superior to the current sytem on the Itablets. I'd try it out, but I don't have a generic Linux tablet at the moment (my Pepper Pad is not generic, and I'm not yet ready to start experimenting with it).

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

You're right that the first poster asked ex-Newton users about the HWR quality of the N8x0, but I still think it is wrong to compare the Newton's HWR with everything else we have today.
I've never used one, but I believe it's quality was something exceptional if ALL the Newton's owners I've met so far said that.
I think they used a commercial algorithm for which Nokia would have to pay royalties to be able to use it in their products.
It's like comparing a Ferrari with a BMW (it was a Fiat in OS2007 :-p).
They both work on cars, but Ferrari has different targets.
True the target in HWR is the same, but the team is different.

I saw the HWR in OS2007 and now in OS2008, and it shows some work on it. I want to believe they'll improve again.

Please note that I am not accepting the current state as is. I would love to see the same level of quality of the Newton's HWR into the n8x0, but they gave us (end-users) other choices and they gave us (the developers community) the opportunity to create a new input plug-in.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

FWIW, on the Palm T3 (and presumably the later TX and T5 models) you can write anywhere, not just in the entry area. The entry area can be pulled down completely.

(This doesn't seem to be supported in the Garnet VM though.)

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I think that was a third party program that enabled you to write anywhere. Out of the box, on a Palm you had to write in the entry area.

How "open" is Maemo? Would a developer be able to write an addition to the OS where you could gesture into a text box, then write in the text box and Maemo would think that box is an entry area?

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

I don't think you can do that. However, you can implement your own input methods. But they have to fit in the center section of the on-screen keyboard (everything except the left and right columns, which are the same for all input methods). You have some control over the buttons at the sides, as seen in the built-in HWR, but not much.

A graffiti implementation is definitely possible, as is quikwriting, a stylus-Dvorak keyboard, or a telegraph key, if you were so inclined.

See:
http://maemo.org/development/documen...t_methods.html

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

It is because the palm operating system (garnet) is owned by a company called access. All modern palm pda's had the os tweaked by palm to give different pim features as well as stuff like full screen graffiti.

b
 

No, absolutely not. I have 2 T3s, and out of the box they can do this. To engage the write-anywhere function you tap a little icon on the built-in PalmOS status bar. On 5.2.1 and probably every later version you can write anywhere. Look for the wiggly line on the status bar.

Re: Handwriting - worth the effort?
 

Fair enough! I always thought I needed a third party app. Learn something new everyday!

Finally got my N800 yesterday. The HWR is....well....interesting ;-) I'll see what it is like on OS2008, but at this stage I'll be giving it a miss. I really was spoilt on the 2100. But I am loving this device! Streaming audio rocks :-)