Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Have it your way, Marcelo, but IMHO you're being much too patient.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

There really wasn't that much hype about Canola2...
Just like almost every software currently in development for the iTT, they all have their usability problems. The title of this thread suffers from false advertising. I don't know if the program suffers at all. Well, maybe the download process suffered, and in turn the installation suffered, but it is usable.
What happened to the good old days when people didn't just complain? People should just offer good criticism and solutions, or sit back and wait for the developers to correct the bugs and revise the software per responses...

I've downloaded the Canola2 and it works... It displays photos, plays music and videos and I have podcast support. Yes, there are things I'd like to see (which I will provide input in the proper locations) but it is a beta piece of software and a very nice alternative to the other music/video players we have out there. Plus, currently, it is free, and you can't beat that price. (I know I know, nothing is free, but this is as close as it gets).

BTW... Windows Vista does not live up to the hype, and I believe suffers from usability issues... And I PAID for that POS....

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

BWAHAHAHAHA... and what's more, it's been that way ever since Windows 1.0 ! :-)

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Usability issues? Heck I can't even get the program yet. The downloads are continuing to come up as 'corrupted file etc etc'. Bizarre misleading error message and it tells what? As a base user, I am not doing backflips or 'other' mirrors or install variations. The point is The Program itself, period done. At this point it has AVAILABILITY issues.
argghhh see ya maybe in six months to a year, I hope.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

There's a simple way to fix the download availability problem now:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...498#post114498

p.s. It is not specific to Canola and not their fault.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

I was following the directions on the followinf post:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...&postcount=225

I think what they were doing is making sure the images were stored with the music files rather than in the .canola folder.

To do the above I think I needed to become root (using the becomeroot app via sudo gainroot - search for information on this).

I then ran the python scripts from my home directory (this is accessed via xterm).

One issue I had with the video_thumb.py script was I needed to add a larger default time (--time=120) to make the images more usable (otherwise I got a lot of opening credits).

Hope this was of help.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Just a reminder that usually only the people have usability problems go on the forums to give feedback/complain.

So don't get disheartened canola team, because most of us are using it just fine and have no problems :D

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hi Patleeman,

thanks =) I really don't worry too much because of this and other thing:
1) we know the issues and we have plenty of ways of solving. we are just testing / making sure we use the best one

2) we do receive excelent feedback from the website form =) And this is what counts a lot of people saying that they like, that maybe a little bit here or there should be different but they are really ok with the concepts and they understand what we are trying to do =)

So in the end, Opensource Zealots were expectable, but no problem we deal with them inside the team, so we know how to deal with the ones outside. that's why I don't get pissed. For me Suri is just like other Free software lover in tour team =)

BR

Marcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Firstly: THANKS! ;)
Secondly: My original comment was not intended to read 'hot'. More like tongue in cheek sarcastic chiding wine with a smile...:rolleyes:
(ion's disclaimer)

O.k. so I am not going to do backflips.....but o.k. I can roll (lol) with your excellent 'alternative'.

For truly the program itself and its great offering of functionality, is the key.
I just regret that it seems fellas like you and other community members who are quite savvy are having to 'work' overtime with these crazy work arounds and do damage control for someone else's disaster. Ya thats a good word for the whole debacle.

So, kudos to you guys that have helped so much, really. Just allow me to be rightly annoyed with the OS fumble and access issues by whomever.
As a project manager in other types of work, it just is not acceptable to me to see such screwups in their own specialty. The software.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Now, while I don't agree with Suryavanshi about Canola being totally unusable, I think THIS comment (quoted comment) brings down the level of debate to bad-mouthing.

Surya didn't really bad mouth the developers. He voiced his concerns - true or not - and laid down some of his reasons (a reasoned debate is not bad mouthing). And Marcello did take on the concerns and answered with a reasoned reply. End of topic.

I guess these kinds of convoluted reasoning happens when there is a HUGE level of anticipation from a software (or hardware) and it fails in some ways. Then we tend to tarnish the whole of the software with the same bad brush as the little parts of it which are not working. That is wrong, and that is where Surya maybe overdid in his critique of Canola 2.

Again this is another of those convolutions, where we try to justify that open source (or fill in your software of criticism) can be given some slack in being bug-filled, since MS Windows is and we paid for it. I dont see why Windows being buggy has anything to do with the topic of Canola having some bugs (which Marcelllo and group have admitted as being Beta and are fixing). What is the link here ? Can someone fill me in ?

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Canola2 really needs maemoscrobbler support.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hyping up was not a good idea.I tried the app and the usability seems ok at a first glance. At least better than UKMP and Kagu. I don't like the visual design though. The icons are too small and it all seems a bit vague/bland. Also I don't like the fulscreen-by-default behaviour. An app should blend in with the OS in my opinion.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

One of the thoughts I've had is that you have to thumb all the way backwards through all the steps you took to exit the app.

Of course that prevents accidentally closing it too.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

This is something I find irksome too, having to back up to the first screen. This is the same in Kagu as well.

Maybe there should be a way to implement this without an accidental close button either. Me wants the best of both waorlds I guess :D

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hello

"Canola2 really needs maemoscrobbler support."
This is on our list. Actually we are "polishing" the plugin support and this is one of the requirements ( to signal when music starts, ends, 10 sec played etc)

"ne of the thoughts I've had is that you have to thumb all the way backwards through all the steps you took to exit the app.
"
You can actually hold back a little bit and go straight to home. We were going to place a home button on all the screens, but we decided to go with a hard button (menu) and the hold back options for that. The problem came when the n810 was announced : the menu button is hidden on the keyboard slide. Damn, this caught me.


"I don't like the visual design though. The icons are too small and it all seems a bit vague/bland. "

Well, this would lead us in design discussion =) but not a problem, it's impossible to match everyone's expectations. I think a theme could solve this. But I really don't think the icons are that small, also don't think at all the look vague oor bland, they have pretty clear meaning and strong features (color x illustration) to build on. The grey theme has more shapes and can go better to those who like a gestalt approach of contours and shapes, but I really disagree with the vague and bland. Apart of all of that (size) is there because we are looking forward do extensibility not the opposite.

"Also I don't like the fulscreen-by-default behaviour. An app should blend in with the OS in my opinion."

I get your point, and actually is the same I have been listening from ZeroJay and Others, and now that I understand why that, I can only say :
blend with OS? sorry, this is the default media player. 20px white board around the application area? borders? no thanks.

That's exactly why we built canola on a different design to give users a media center like experience. Like you have when you start your windows media center or your front-row. It's really not supposed to blend with windows's regular toolkit or even cocoas.

So I think this clarifies a little bit more.

In my vision we have the following:
1) we are aware of a lot of issues and working hard to fix them. most will be fixed and we also plan more features to improve the overall experience.
2) we are also aware of what we cannot do: While canola2 was tested with the option to be minimized, 75% os all the screens were ok, but quite awkward, this is not our goal. We will also not try to reach everyone, because this is just impossible. We will keep trying to simplify things, support what we can support and the most important: keep listening to those who want to share their opinions and improve the software.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Everyone: I don't care how many posts Suryavanshi has, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I personally don't care much for elitism / whose genitalia is longer.

Suryavanshi: I think you're a zealot based on your comments but I'll let most of that go. I've been running Ubuntu for a year now and part of that is because of the restricted closed source driver for my Nvidia card and my DLink WiFi card. Otherwise I'd be sitting at a command prompt offline.

I think you picked an interesting project to lose your marbles over. Since Canola was first announced here Marcelo & team have been the nicest most helpful hardworking people I've ever seen here. (Sorry to the rest of you ingrates ;) ). I personally don't care whether it's opensource or not; not everybody wants to turn their project into a democracy chock full of people with more opinions than answers. If you have privacy concerns, then you can simply opt not to run it.

I don't know if a Gantt chart would satisfy you, but I've been keeping one eye on the Canola project since before v1 was released and these guys are doing a LOT given the deadlines they have. As Marcelo said, these aren't self imposed, a fact which might have escaped you.

As far as the design itself, there are a lot of plain Jane media players available for the 770. This one was supposed to spice things up. If I'm listening to music at my desk I use the built in media player. If I'm in a car or in transit, I'll use Canola. Depends on what I feel like. The "hype" wasn't because of the INdT team, it was from users who have a different opinion than you; they like it. A lot. Canola might just be the Ron Paul of the tablet world to them.

I hope I've taken a somewhat different approach in the above and rather than attack you, merely offered my opinions (and hopefully shot down lots of yours.) :D

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

The hell it isn't Canola's fault! THEY made the decision to use a Nokia-operated repository without TESTING it first. Or at least checking the URL spelling!
THEY made the decision to NOT use their own repository. I know they have/had at least one in the past. It worked well enough for some of their experimental non-Canola stuff.
I'm sick of folks not manning up and accepting the blame for fcuking something up!
Nokia and Canola both get EQUAL blame, period.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

"... The hell it isn't Canola's fault! THEY made the decision to use a Nokia-operated repository without TESTING it first. Or at least checking the URL spelling!
THEY made the decision to NOT use their own repository. I know they have/had at least one in the past. It worked well enough for some of their experimental non-Canola stuff.
I'm sick of folks not manning up and accepting the blame for fcuking something up!
Nokia and Canola both get EQUAL blame, period."

Hei iball, we did get the blame, we said again (and I even made a joke about our bad karma) the thing that I wanted to explain was:

1. The team itself new about it, we tested a lot but we did find out the problem (actually in the last couple of hours) you right about that
But....
2. It's is not us that choose where it will go. Managers decided that for the first time canola was going to tableteer (almost like a certified app) and it was demanded that it should be on official repositories.

We (employees) warned but we don dictate the rules. therefore there's a slightly difference I would make to the comment, but in the end we indeed have a slice of the blame.

Now what? Lesson learned? I made a full report, including a comparison of visits in the website x emails saying "I couldn't install" and addded a lot of you guys comments here to show them that we really missed out a lot with that move. The thing is people believed it was going to be a matter of hours to be ready again, but it wasnt.

So, following our tradition to be very open, with the report, I got what the dev team wanted, when we are ready, or even a update is ready we will have our own repository and don't even matter if the official ones are in great shape.

We saw pretty clearly, that don't matter who owns the server, if a user clicks on our website and gets a file corrupted, it's our fault. And it's bad for us not for the repository.

It sucks, but it happened again (last time was dependencies madness).

Marcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

About the problem of exiting, and the solution that you mentioned - about holding the back button down for a longer time (2 secs) - which takes you back to home screen direct, and one more back will quit app - it actually works for me on my N810 also.

I didnt know of this "hidden" feature and this actually satisfies me pretty well. Rather than have one more button which will add clutter to the screen, this works for me.
Only if this feature is somehow well advertised - maybe a popup message when an user presses back button to inform of this long press feature, more people will discover it and use it to good effect.

I am increasingly finding the well thought out UI design of Canola very pleasing.
Great job Canola Team.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Added a comment to the bug for keyboard craziness.

There is no obvious way to 'iconize' canola2 and use other apps while playing music.
If you exit to the menu using the hardware menu key, the keyboard is disabled in all other apps.

There are other anomalies as well, but that is a killer.

So, how do you listen to Canola2 on an N810 while doing something else, like an xterm?

Thanks!

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hargoth,

Hei can you please forward us for us your version etc... cause we know of this bug, and we did everything to avoid it. It passed in all of our tests, but of course sometimes something can go wrong.

so, this was really the most serious bug during our last week, and we want to hunt it down as much as possible, I would be very glad if you can send me everything you have (repositories, version of firmware etc) and if you have instaled the evas demos from Gustavo barbieri.

Br

Marcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

I don't experience quite that problem but I have an even bigger bug with C2 that might be related. With Canola 2 running, I loose the function for all hardware buttons (except power and hardware menu key) for all other applications. The functions return when I exit Canola 2.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Merry Christmas to all of you,

Hope Suryavanshi is still alive ! ;)

I have been reading this thread up until post 59 with rising astonishment. I really do not understand why Suryavanshi’s comment is seen as offending. Some (senior) members (only a few, thanks for that) should realize that there is no use for talk forums like Internet Tablet unless criticism is accepted -even when it hurts. (it always does).

I earlier had such an experience after writing a somewhat disappointed comment on Opera not being in 2008. I ended up reacting that this community - Maemo, Internet Tablet etc -. looked "like a stressed and defending community. Not necessary and not reassuring ." Later I tried to delete my message, because the discussion was getting "somewhat besides the road" .

However, reading this thread on Canola, I would like to restate my observation, because this Canola thread is sometimes "way off the road" and that is not good for Nokia and the "Open Source community". Please remember: the enemy is listening!

Regarding Canola: It’s better than Release I, my kids (28 - 30) like the looks – especially the Photo Views, but I have to agree with Suryavanshi: the manner in which this Beta version was dropped in a public environment is not helpful for promoting the Nokia tablets at all. Beta versions should only be distributed to a limited and carefully chosen group- you all know that. I do not know who is to blame for all this, but that is not my problem: I am just a poor guy who did buy his Nokia N800 for fun in July of this year for 409 € ( Aiii, did I see < 200$ ?).

I still love My N800, everything is running in OS2008, I do respect the work that has been and still is being done, but I am also concerned over Maemo, the Internet Tablet Forum, it’s contribuants and OS2008.

I certainly will watch Nokia’s steps regarding this all with much interest.

I also wrote earlier that the Maemo end TEAM people have to mature their work (architecture, alignment, quality control, etc.) rapidly, otherwise Nokia OS 2009 will perhaps be Windows CE or with Opera or Safari - or whatever non Maemo. :D

Nevertheless, I do see the potential for great success and love my N800 and the walkaround web! I did in particular buy the N800 because, as a professional (40 years IT), I am very interested in the inventive way Nokia is trying to develop the concept.

Hope you guys appreciate my comments.

(If not: I always can buy that black thing with safari (Safari? Yes, that’s how they call it on their website). Afterall I am just a stupid customer. :rolleyes:

(PS: do you realize that Nokia can’t advertise with Canola, and are you happy with that ? – just testing…) :rolleyes:

As always: Have fun and a happy OS2008 !, ;)

Abel.

NB,
I wrote above that everything is running in OS2008. There is however:
- a bug in fonts in RSS (no é or ë etc.) and

- Internet Tablet Talk makes my browser shut down or even stops the machine. Perhaps a memory problem, but I have started checking for viruses or hacking.

I know this thread is the wrong place and will put the bugs on the right zilla spot, but anyone else having these problems?

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Susdio,

Yes this is exactly the roblem. It wasn't supposed to exist anymore, and thus we need your specifictions to add to our test bed. Can you send us, device, firmware version used, applications that you have installed, and when you installed canola2? There was a fast closed beta, and people who installed that version founded the critical bugs for us and we ran like crazy to fix them. But I'm really sad that this one still happens.

we will do our best to fix it.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

I must say, I really like canola for the most part. I'm on a N800 using os2008. The interface is slick and pretty much foolproof. I do wish there was a folder tree as well as ID3 tag listing for mp3's though. And video playback isn't anywhere near as smooth as mplayer. But with the right time and polish, i think this could be THE app for media on the n800

Good work.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

@newf

Folder navigation is coming in the next update. We wanted to do it right. actually is not a tree, as tree ddon't work good at all in horizontal widescreens (I have been working with a huge software for maemo with that... ) but it's coming and seamless integrated and usable by all applications not only music.

Video playback is funny, if you have mplayer.... it's mplayer playingl..hitting fullscreen..canola goes almost to sleep (just listen to events) and who is actually playing is mplayer... I received a email about a user with that problem.. I don;'t know exactly what he did... but he came back saying (well I did some updates in mplayer and this and now its fine.. just like playing on pure mplayer ) what actually should be the norm.

Anyways, yes.. we are focused on improving and polishing more and more... and not wnating to be the application, but at least something that makes the internet tablet better and more atractive as product. In the end we want the platform to succed!

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hmm hopefully with folder navigation comes selecting folders not to scan. Or an exceptions thing. (it bugs me when I see the album art in the pictures area..but oh well).

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Laughing man :

I think you are already doing that =) the settings does that.. I think the folder navigation will be for your specific media, so we will ignore other file types inside that folders...

But this is the kind of thing that we will avoid: We do know the importance of some features, but we will deliberated not attend all small issues... because if we do so, the whole idea and concept behind simplicity goes under water. "just add this.. and this and this" and you have a nice looking tree view that you cannot even see in which level you're and also.. a nice look hierarchical menu from the 80's on top of it =)

This will not happen =)

But again : if you configured you media folders.. your album art probably are not showing on photos today =)))

BR

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Configure my media folders? I'm sorry, don't think I understand?

The pictures folder I have are on the same SD card as my music folder(which also have album art inside the music folders) and there is a covers folder on that SD card that UMKP generated.

But I guess I can just move the pictures to another folder. Then move the manga from the other SD card onto the external and have Canola2 not scan the external for images. Hmm need to get a bigger SD card, that poster was right when 2x2 GB cards isn't enough space.

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hi laughingman..

When I say configure your media folders I say :
Open canola, click on settings.. media library.. and you will find :

Audio folders
Photo folders
Video folders.

Click on one of those.. open a file browse thing.. where you "Mark" the Eye with a V the folders you want canola to specificly scan for that file type. So for example... if you have a folder called "MyPictures" and today.. you are scanning the whole "Removable Card" it's possible that the covers are showing up there..

So go there.. unselect the whole card.. and select only the folders you want to watch.

you don't need to move pictures.

But if I got correctly and you have a folder.. with music, pictures and everything inside.. then ehhehe a little bit of changing would be good =) because we can't do magic.. =)

BR

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Haha sorry, I'm an idiot. I just found out about that.

And no, my folders (thank god for me being a neat freak regarding my electronic devices) are setup in a folder and tag structure. So all music is in a seperate music folder, all pictures in a seperate picture folder, etc..

So basically what I was asking for was already included, I just didn't realize it. :D

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

yeah =) that's why I was reading.. and thinking... what did you mean =)
But it's the true =) people never reads the docs / manuals =))) (no problem with that)

* the website has a lot of material this time =)

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Sorry for duplicated posts, I just want to make sure Marcelo sees it:

I have a 770 with OS2006. I began having problems with Canola 2 beta 8 after my usual MMC card became corrupted and I had to switch to another MMC card I had, although I don't know what this would have to do with Canola going bad.

Anyway, here's what's happening:

Oftentimes, when Canola tries to launch, it will go to an endless "updating media library". I have to use a StatusBar app to "kill process" in order to shut down Canola.

Even with a fresh install of Canola (after using Canola Clean-up), Canola will sporatically run VERY sluggishly. Click a button....wait 5-10 seconds, click a button...wait etc. Many times it will just hang and I have to "kill process" to shut Canola down. Only other processes running are the Google search applet on desktop, simple launcher, and Osso-Statusbar-CPU.

As far as Podcasts go:

After clicking "my feeds" and waiting a long time for the little 'C' shaped animation at the bottom to finish turning, I click a download arrow on the right. Nothing happens for a while. Eventually, a download begins to SLOWLY happen. Then as the download nears 100%, Canola freezes and reboots my 770. Upon reopening Canola, I have to try and download the podcast all over again. If the download does finish w/o a reboot, clicking to listen to download causes the 'C' to spin again, then stop with all zeros displayed for length of podcast and elapsed time. The tablet freezes up and I have to "kill process" with the statusbar app. Sometimes I get a sort of "split screen" effect where a portion of the right side of the Canola screen is duplicated followed by an auto reboot.

I have used cleanup to delete and reinstalled Canola 3-4 times (after I disabled all repositories except Maemo and Maemo Extras as Handful recommended)...still the same problems.

Help!
thanks,
Neil

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Hei, don't need to do this :) I read everything, I was out because was my b-day :)
I needed some party :))))

Marcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Happy Birthday, Marcelo :)

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Thanks Gerald :) my engine is 2.8 now, and ready to rock one more year :) lot's of interesting things to do this year, and the new team (Canola-Carman) is currently under heavy training :) we will be back to full speed development soon!

Marcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Happy Birthday!

And thanks to all of you for such a great media player!!

Kudos for the great tip on one-click back to menu nav :)

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

Thanks! don't forget to check out BETA9 :)
BR

MArcelo

Re: Canola does not live up to the hype, suffers from usability issues.
 

You bet I will as soon as I get 'net access :) I've got problems connecting to my home network because of the way I've got it set up :/ But as soon as I get out of the house tomorrow I'll update! I'm really looking forward to it/salivating over the release thread :P

It looks wonderful! I'll post over in the release threads when I've tried everything out!

Thanks again!!