Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Hello All.

I've read several of the other posts, and I'm sorry if this post duplicates some other stuff. I know the n800 v. Touch issue has been done pretty much to death, but I haven't been able to find all of the information that applies directly to me and my situation. I'm really, really hoping for your help here.

My wife just bought me an iPod Touch 16GB. I hadn't planned on getting anything new in the PDA or MP3 player arenas for at least another 6 months, so this is a total surprise that has thrown me for a loop. I need to decide between an n800 and a Touch very, very soon.

Here's what I currently have and how I use it. I consider all of these to be "essential" functions for me and I'd like to get away from my current two(and a half)-device solution.

PDA: HP Ipaq 1945. Carried around in my pocket on a daily basis at work.
Used for:
- Calendar function with alarm
- PDF reading
- Notes (usually through Pocket Word, but it's pretty much simple text - I could improvise with any text reader)
- Spreadsheet (Pocket Excel - not absolutely essential, but I use it fairly often and would definitely miss it)

MP3: Creative Zen 30GB. Carried in the car and left in all weather (I imagine an n800 or a Touch would go in my pocket like my current 1945)
Used for:
- MP3 listening in the car (with all that entails: quick boot, relatively easy navigation, esp. "eyes-free" navigation)
- Playlists are a must.
- 30GB is nice, but I could get along with 16GB if I had to. Is it possible to do two 16GB cards in an n800 to get to 32GB?

Now, all of that said, I also look forward to internet browsing with these devices. I get the impression from the posts here that the n800 (esp. with OS2008) has superior browsing. My typical sites are:

newsarama.com
thedigitalbits.com
games.ign.com
mail.yahoo.com

I'm also a bit concerned about future-proof devices, and I often see the term "planned obsolescence" thrown about with iPods. I can handle annoying set up, but I don't really want to deal with complicated operation of the "basic" tasks above.

I'm very sorry for the long post, but $400 is a lot of money for us and this is a big, long-term decision for me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Eric
ericteall.blogspot.com

PS - I can do calendar functions with my cell phone, but I don't usually carry that around with me at work (I leave it in my jacket), and that would be yet another thing to carry around. Just FYI. -ET

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I bought a N800 and two 8GB SDHC cards and an iGo Bluetooth keyboard for a total of less than $310.

The touch is a nice MP3 and video player, but unless you hack it to add other applications you're limited to what it can do.

The N800 on the other hand needs a little more work to get working how you like it, but the browser (after adding Adblock Plus) and a couple of other tweeks works very well. There are other applications such as Maemo Mapper which you would have had to pay $$$ on the Windows Mobile platform. The eBook reader (FBReader) is also excellent if you have compatible (DRM free) files. MP3 and video playback aren't quite as smooth as the iPod, but with Canola2 things may get pretty close fairly soon.

There is currently no PIM applications to match the PocketPC apps like PocketInformant, but there are enough to keep you going. There are spreadsheets and note apps to meet your requirements.

Hope this helps.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

PJE, your post was helpful, thank you. The price thing is definitely something to consider.

I just use the basic PIM stuff on a PocketPC. I don't need anything beyond what was available on my old Handspring Visor 8 years ago.

What do you mean that playback isn't as "smooth" as the iPod? Are you talking actual playback, or are you talking interface? A simple, functional interface is all I need - after all, my current MP3 player is a b&w Zen Xtra from 2002 or so.

So there are PIM apps for N800? Can they ring an alarm when it's time for an appt?

Are there good text entry apps for N800? I've heard that Google Apps are good, but I don't want to be always tied to hotspots.

Eric

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Touch is the King of convenient music playing (if you don't mind being locked into iTunes and restricted formats). Movies are pretty nice also - smaller screen, but more colors and great sound. Touch is smaller with nice interface. N8xx is better for sharing music/movies with built-in speaker and stand. It's also best for internet radio.

ITs have the browsing experience down. As long as there is support, they can pretty much keep up w/ the web. But the Touch just had an update that allows for more video sites than just Youtube, so that is another point for it. If they open it up, like it's said for Feb. '08, then it may surpass the Nokia in some, or maybe all, web browsing options.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I'd have to say keep the Touch. The 800/810 with 2008OS is nice but not ready for the linux newbie as it calls for a lot of "tweaking". What apple has down is the "it just works" experience. With the new 2008 OS there are a lot of usability improvements and a fair share of "issues". The fact that most apps have to be redone in order to work is a big issue and many are not yet availalbe.
The Apple SDK will be availalable by the end of Jan and with the greater number of users for the Touch/iphone than the 800/810 there will be many 3rd party apps available .
If what you want is a good PIMP (Personal Internet Meda Player)
then the Touch is a better fit. The N800 is more of a linux hacker/hobbyist device. The next generation (N9X?) device should be better but it won't be out till next year.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

from owning an iphone and an n800....

i find the n800 to be far more functional. rarely will you get to a website that you cant navigate through. the iphone is great, because its a phone, browser, email....but if it was just the iPod Touch, id say get the n800 instead. without the phone function, they are both on an even playing field. n800 is more practical...assuming you can tether it with a phone.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I won't be tethering it, but I honestly don't feel the need (nor do I wish to pay for the data plan). I have wi-fi in the house, at work, at hotels, etc. That's not the issue.

Can anyone answer the memory question? Is the n800 totally SDHC compliant? Are there 16GB cards available?

Also, what about the apps? I assume there are text editors and spreadsheets for the n800, but I don't know what they are.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I have both!

The Touch is sexy, great for music and video. The size is a bonus. Safari, the Touch's web browser is good but lacks Adobe Flash support. A few neagtive points are, any video must be re-coded to a format the Touch uses and there is no loud speaker. You can only use WI-FI to connect to the WWW.

The N800 is great for all things internet related, the resolution of the screen is a bonus when looking at web pages. It's interface is not a slick as the Touch but it does what is needed!

Try to have a play with both before you buy!

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

yeah i must say after using a nokia 770 for awhile i was impressed what you can do with it (power user wise). But there's just something about the iphone's interface that screams, "Sexy! Easy! Smooth!"

I sure did not get that with my nokia 770, however, the n800 series surprass that model by a longshot, so its getting tougher everyday to choose.... keep my current phone + n800 or iphone for the all in jack trades of them all!

its a shame the SDK doesn't come out till feb, by that time i'm sure the n800 has matured way more than it has now.

but from the "web apps" i've seen for the iphone, damn even they are that impressive without an SDK, imagine the possibliies!

plus it kinda edges me out that the two has simliar specs!

n800 = 400 mhz iphone = 600 mhz (although the firmware underclocks it to 405 mhz atm)

n800 has the better extra .5 inches of LCD and the massive resolution support, but the phone/touch has more colors (16 mil vs 65000)

the only thing i see over the iphone is the price, the iphone is in massive demand right now and finding one for cheap will prove tough. The n800 is a bargin atm.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I don't think the Touch will handle all of your requests. It is a closed system, on a smaller resolution screen. Music & Video playback should be superior, because of smaller resolution it doesn't have to work as hard. For browsing I find the resolution too limited.

The Nokia Tablet series have a higher resolution screen and you can install a mix of applications. I've done a fair bit with my N800 and it is a very capable device. For video you will have to recode or optimize the clips, pretty much. Actually same goes for iPod. The N810 gets the bonus keyboard and GPS (with slow GPS lock at this time). N810 > $400. N800~ $200.

My personal vote is for the IT series. But then, like many here, I'm biased due to the fact that I'm an IT user.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

i have played around with the touch and even though i have an 800, i still think that the touch might be better for me mainly because i don't know anything about linux ... i mean zero ...so owning an 800 means learning at least _some_ linux

the main difference as i see it is that the ipod touch is a media player first and a computer second
the 800 is a computer first and media player second ...

the 800 is clearly the better machine in terms of what it can do as time goes on and it gets more apps and a bigger user base .. it has a much bigger upside whereas the touch will do pretty much what apple says it will do

in theory the 800 could become your _only_ pc (meaning it doesn't need to be tethered to a "big brother" to function) ...this is what attracted me to it in the first place

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

The N800 has really become my primary machine here on vacation. Sure, it's not quite as convenient as browsing on a desktop, but it's damn close and not having to drag around a laptop or (god forbid), my 60lbs G5 is worth the small pain of the extra-small computer. :D

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Thanks for all the responses. They still leave me with some questions, though:

Assume I would upgrade to OS2008.

1) Memory on n800: Can SDHC cards larger than 8GB be used when available?

2) Can ANY of the current PIM apps "ring" an alarm while the n800 is off? Does the iPod Touch's calendar do this? I have the short-term memory of a brain-damaged parakeet and I need the device in my pocket to alert me when it's time to go to an appointment.

3) How hard is it to install these things? I am definitely a Linux newbie.

4) How is the earphone sound from the n800?

5) How obsolete is the n800? How long will it be updated/supported not just by Nokia, but by the community?

Thanks for your input.

Eric

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I feel the same way. I know virutally nothing about linux, and as I've gotten older, I find I'm less interested in learning. The Touch's out-of-the-box experience appeals to me, as does the whole "click and install" concept that I'm sure will be there once the SDK is out.

Yeah, the n800 CAN do more, but do the distribution methods and software really get non-techie users to that point? Take me: I'm a total Linux newbie BUT I am relatively computer savvy, especially when compared to the average person on the street. At work, I'm the guy people come to when there's something wrong with their computer and they don't want to wait for our tech people to get there. Still, I am confused and put-off by Linux's methods of obtaining and installing software, which may THEN still have major issues.

I know that MS stuff also has issues much of the time, but if one is willing to pony up some $$, one can almost always find a solution that does work, and it's not that hard. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I like computers, I can deal with technical stuff, and still Linux scares the heck out of me. Maybe the Touch would be better for me at that point.

Eric

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

FWIW software installation and updates on the tablets (for mainstream items) is point and click through Application Manager which is built in. (and not closed off too just Nokia repositories)

My mother got a 16gb Touch for xmas yesterday that I helped her setup. Small, slick and easy -- yes. But I would be bored with it within a week without the "additional apps" that people are now counting on being here in Feb. iTunes drives me insane as it's bloated and picky about formats and requires an iTunes account (with Cc) for things like coverart downloads. It would be the first thing I would look to replace.

It's not t say the NITs are perfect for everyone, but IMO they are much a more powerful platform right now.

One last thing I found funny. NIT users often ***** about the "usless" case that comes with it. Well at $399 the Touch came with no case, and no way to charge from a wall socket out of the box. Just a special USB sync/charge cable.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

1. Yes. 2. My N800 is "off" about as often as my celphone is.
3. Theoretically quite easy. The more esoteric you get, the rougher it is. 4. It works. They're earbuds. Quality is pretty good on real headphones. 5. The N770 folks will complain about abandonment. The N810 is largely the same as the N800 spec-wise (except for keyboard and GPS), so I'd expect the thing has some life in it.

Don't fear the Linux. It just means that A) almost everything is free, and B) nothing works really well, but you can get what you need done with some tweaking.
With your stated skillset, you'll be fine.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Up to 16GB. But that can be upgraded also.

GPE Calendar (http://www.cobb.uk.net/NokiaIT/index.html) can do that.

Most apps are available at http://maemo.org/downloads/, you only have to click the http://maemo.org/midcom-static/style...tton_small.png button. That's it. Really.

Average.

The N800 has the same hardware and OS that new released/to-be-released N810 so it would be fully supported in the short-term.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

But does this work for EVERY application? It seems like everytime someone on these forums has a problem, the first answer is something like "but did you reflash the os and then download the tarball from this guy's site and blah blah blah..." OR the answer is simply "Yeah, that's buggy. We'll ask the Linux gods for a new one and hopefully they'll comply."

I don't mean to get snarky, and I really appreciate your post. However, I have yet to see anything on here that convinces me that I should want to deal with the rather constant headaches of an n800 at this point.

For what it's worth, I have tried Linux on my desktop and my laptop before, and I did not find it to be the Windows killer everyone says it is. That doesn't mean it was worthless, but my experience tells me that it is not for everyone.

This is a very helpful portion of your post. I'm really not looking for something I can tinker with--I want basic internet and PIM functions, specifically a calendar and an alarm clock. I want a portable media player. I have iTunes right now (but no iPod, believe it or not) and I have already given them my Cc# because I used iTunes for watching BSG last season. (Not so much in the coming season, of course, but that's beside the point.) So I guess it's pretty clear that, just like Linux, the iPod Touch is not for everyone.

Thanks again.

Eric

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

"Nothing works really well." That's becoming a key thing for me as I consider the choice between an n800 and a Touch. I may very well buy an n800 (or an EeePC) for travel, for "sit-down and work without a bulky laptop to carry" situations, but that's not the decision before me right now.

When I carry something in my pocket day-in, day-out, I want it to be small and reliable. I want it to work every time without hours of work on my part at home. I'm thinking at this point that I'm going to have to settle for the limitations of the iPod Touch to get that kind of reliability. With the SDK coming out soon, I'm guessing that some basic expansion of functionality will happen pretty quickly. That said, I can do what I really need to do with a Touch right now, so all the rest of that is gravy.

Thanks to all who have responded to my specific questions. I know that the basic question (n800 vs. iPod/Phone) is an old one around here. Thanks for the distinct lack of flames.

Eric

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

My experience the other night with a friend who was trying an iTouch was that it had no speaker(s) for external music play or alerts(?) and I thought the screen was too small to be really practical for everyday all day use.
If your really interested in photos and/or Movies etc, the N800 is a great size of screen, definitely better than an iTouch...... and I personally like Quiver as viewer for photos. Notably, it has smooth kinetic scrolling and quick switching to full screen viewing.

Headphones are great but I have found the stereo speakers excellent for that sudden moment when you need background music (like a Christmas Dinner) in a location that there might not be any stereo home theatre option.

Oh, the other thing I really like, that I have posted previously elsewhere about, is the video phone.
I think it works through Google Talk and also the Skype works great between units in video and voice over internet too. If you have two, then voila, instant home video intercom. Can't do any of that on an iTouch.

good luck with your decision!

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Well, crap. I forgot about the lack of speakers on the Touch. Sigh. Maybe I'll just wait... some more...

But there is a simple speaker for sound effects, etc. in the Touch, right?

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

" constant headaches "

I have yet to have a temporary headache with my Nokia N800, let alone a constant one.

I think you may have read a little bit too deep into this forum. Just like if you were to visit the Apple discussions area and see how every mac is defective, or all of their programs have serious shortcomings and bugs. The reality of a forum is that it is visited by people looking for troubleshooting help (small part of the market) and advanced people (also small market %) pushing the limits of what the thing can do.

I have yet to have my N800 crash on me, have yet to reflash my OS and I have yet to use any kind of linux code.

A browser crash can happen when it doesn't understand whatever it doesn't understand, but that is the only thing I've experienced.

Installing an app, is easily done through the application manager on the device and through the secure click to install this app button on the web at maemo garage. Nothing technical whatsoever.

Bugs & features? Approach the development team. I've written a few people and what do you know. A few weeks later there is a new version.

The iTouch does what it does out of the box. It is a glorified iPod with browsing capability, but nothing more until Apple decides so. It could be soon, it could be ways down the road. Most people wait years for the Apple feature or product they want, if they get it.

As for the N800 shelf life. I think it will handle another major OS revision. Maybe two. The N810 has the same hardware. Most likely the newer models will run faster components but share the OS, and the older models will be compatible for a few years with that OS.

We don't know yet what Apple will do now with iPod firmware & software updates. The iPod Touch is a new animal. I hope Apple will slow down the "buy one iPod a year curve to be up to date" and will allow users to get firmware and software updates past the current 6m 1y thing ... which it has been (we have 3 iPods)

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I think that little speaker is just for clicking sounds like other iPods have and the alarm clock.

Speaking of speakers. On the N800 they're pretty good for audio, video, IM and VOIP. I don't really use headphones with the N800 nor do I need speakers really.

(for my iPods I have two dock-able external speaker sets, power bricks etc)

PS: Macworld Expo is coming up. Doesn't hurt to wait till mid january. You never know SJ might announce some updates or tell us all the iPod Touch will be updated with xyz software capabilities.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Eric - I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. Linux newbie who doesn't particularly want to learn, computer savvy. I want a lot of the same functions you want - simple note taking, a little spreadsheet, PIM functions, etc....

I was looking for a replacement PDA and considered the Touch, but had a few problems with it - 1) I hated the keyboard, could not get the hang of it; 2) the browser mashed up my Google Calendar and did some other funky butt things; 3) the calendar feature was simply a reader - I couldn't ENTER events.

Now, I have heavily Web 2.0'ed myself. I use GMail, GCal, some Google Docs and a task manager program called Nozbe. The web experience using the N800 is excellent. I also wanted a backup in case I was not near a hotspot - and for that GPE Calendar works pretty good, especially combined with a program called Erminig - which syncs to GCal. Sync works well. And there is a companion program - GPESummary - which will display a summary of events on the main screen. There are a variety of other GPE programs - a To Do list, Contacts, a Timesheet, etc.

I use Maemopad+ which is a rather nice note program - either keyed in text notes or sketch notes. I recently upgraded to the new OS2008 - which other than the long download time because the server was slammed - was a breeze to "reflash" from my Windows XP machine. I've downloaded some new stuff I haven't been able to try out yet - Wordpy, which is supposed to be a blogging client for WordPress accounts. I don't have WordPress (Blogger following the Google theme), but I'm thinking it's more advanced editing features might work nicely without having to upload to WordPress. Dunno though, I need to try it.

I'm on here today seeing if there is a new port for Gnumeric - which is a really nice spreadsheet program. Used Gnumeric on the old OS, but haven't been able to get it working on OS2008. It looks like there is a new port, so I'm going to have to try that this evening. But again, I won't have to do a bit of Linux to get it working; I didn't for the old OS and it looks like the guy just put the installer package up in the last day or so.

Canola2 for a media player looks really slick. I don't have a lot of media on the device, but it looks like a similar sort of interface for photos, music, and movies as "coverflow" on the Touch.

There are a couple of good email programs - I use Claws but there is another one about to be released. I use gmail for my main account, but I have a couple of accounts that I want to monitor every once in awhile, and this works great.

So, I really like my N800 with OS2008. I'm not learning Linux for it, and it was a little frustrating right after the new OS came out and repositories were crammed and things not working quite right. But I installed prolly about 8-9 programs the other night in 30 minutes (including download times) - and the experience was on par with installing anything on my old Dell Axim PDA.

The difference is in culture surrounding the device. The N800 uses the Linux open source ethos to create its software base - so some things download and work really well - basically the basic stuff you really want. Some of it isn't as polished as a commercial product might be - but it's free and it does what it's supposed to do. And chances are, if you have a problem or gripe, you can contact the person who made it.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Also, couple of other points....

The N800 software thumb board - while it takes up the whole screen - is actually a joy to use - MUCH better than the Touch's software keyboard. I have fun using it; rather than the complete frustration I experienced with the Touch's board.

The OS2008 also added some features to make the whole interface more thumb friendly.

But there are a variety of additional inputs. Stylus keyboard works pretty well, but there is also a handwriting option that is said not to work very well. I don't use it much, but the couple of times I did it worked ok, about on par with my Axim's.

But I can also hook up a Bluetooth keyboard for heavy editing. As memory serves, the Touch does not have Bluetooth, and the iPhone's does not include the keyboard profile....

There is an FM radio widget which works pretty nicely. And there's an Internet radio program I'd like to try out.

I just opened the native notes program, and it looks like a little word processor - font type and size, bold, italic, underline, color, bullet. Assuming that saves as an RTF file. So that may become my main notes program....

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

Not a problem, I don't get any commission regardless of your choice. :)

As for "any/every" application the answer would be no. However, for popular/common/widespread applications the answer is yes.

Anyone who creates or ports an application for the NITs can make a simple one click installer and repository for it *if they want*. However for some of the more technical or beta applications being ported, they may not go through the trouble. (As it's safe to assume anyone using them can do a simple install from a package) I still think this is the exception not the rule though. Out of everything I have on my tablet, only subversion, rsync and some unix commands were installed directly from some package that I can remember.

It's important to remember that in forums you'll find a unique cross section of users also. Many are new and come to post questions and problems, as that's what the forums are good for. You certainly won't find yourself continually reflashing or with constant headaches though.

I agree. I only have 1 Linux desktop the others are all Windows Vista. Servers I manage are another story, all Linux. However, on a portable mobile device I think things are different. My mother certainly couldn't tell she was using a Linux handheld when trying my tablet this xmas. A desktop would be a different story.

Well, there is an alarm clock built into OS2008 so your covered there. There are calendar options also including Web ones like Google Calendar or applications like GPE Calendar, etc, but I don't use any of them so I'm not much help there.

As for playing music and video I think you'd be fine with either. The tradeoff is just a little less UI/sync polish on the NITs vs. less file options/smaller lower rez screen on the Apple gear.

I'm certainly not saying the Touch is a stupid piece of gear, it just didn't do enough for me to deserve its pricing or a place in my pocket. Browsing is much better on the Nokia IMO and that's something I use all the time. It also has a lot more communcation options (IM, VOIP, Skype, etc) I like the glossy simplicity of the Touch, but in the end that comes with the cost of less features and expandibility. For example I still don't think it's possible to delete a photo on the Touch itself. At least I couldn't see how to do it. It seems like everything goes through the iTunes software for managment. Except the wifi Apple iTunes store of course. :D Ok that was a dig.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

A couple last random thoughts that came up as we had both units here. When I first unboxed the touch I was surprised at how thin/small it was. Nice for the pocket for sure. But when you look at it, it really isn't "that" much smaller then the N810 which packs in a slide out keyboard, GPS, speakers, stand, card slot, USB, larger higher rez screen ,etc. In some ways it left me more amazed at what Nokia was able to pack into the N810.

The other thought is the speakers. I never even gave them a thought when I bought my N800. Now I can see I couldn't go without them. We put some clips on the Touch of my daughter for my mother. They play well, but passing headphones for people to check it out is not the way to share clips with friends. Sure she can get some small aftermarket speakers, but those aren't going in her purse. I guess the iPhone wouldn't have this problem though.

Re: Please help me decide: n800 or iPod Touch
 

I especially appreciate the builtin fm radio. Due to flight delay, I had to wait three hours at the boarding area this morning. Not willing to pay $$ for wireless internet access, I was able to listen to local fm stations and avoid boredom.