Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Ha ha! The joke's on you, the N810 and WiMAX tablets aren't generational upgrades!

You'll be buying two generations in a row.

:p :D

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Curses! Foiled again!

/whips cloak across face in a villainly manner and disappears in a puff of smoke.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

That would be Mara, right? I think I have those.


(I saw you reading this, Mara. :p)

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Wait, what? Mara's a ferret?

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I'll find out when I have lunch with the little critter tomorrow.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I'm watching online for a Wii, but the only console I have in the house for games is a SNES. I think that counts as generation skipping.

Why? Increasing the appeal and out-of-box experience would expand the userbase. Community support is probably log(o) related to size of the community. My post said nothing about adding PIM's, just about the end user experience. The wording of the one sentence could have been better, I never intended to say that average users could not use the NIT's, just that many will be frustrated and potentially "give up".

Maybe I'm just spoiled as a Mac user, but neither the iPhone or the touch were a good fit for me and the NIT gives me what I want as long as I don't expect too much from it.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Brontide, you misunderstood (my fault). I meant your opinion on average users. If you check the first response, you'll see I agreed 100% that the out-of-box experience should be improved... that's why I assumed the second response would be more easily understood. Sorry.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Misunderstanding..... Seems like that kind of day :-)

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Ok... I guess now you owe me the lunch... ;)

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

No problem! Planned on doing so anyway.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Here' why the WiMAX Tablet will be "the one device to rule them all" for me. Personally, I'm neither a business nor power user of technology, but would be better called a social user of technology.

For me - Connection - is the greatest enabler.

Speaking of generational changes, I realize the Tablets regularly acquire new chassis and form factors, and that the next model after the WiMAX Tablet will feature a platform evolution, but the larger 'generational change' that's contextualizing the products, imho, is occuring within the youth, worldwide.

A good billion, or so, people out there are ready to step, seamlessly, from texting, IMing, e-mailing and blogging into the Always On/Always Connected World.

This is not the iPhone paradigm repeated. Apple is a company full of geniuses, that - somehow, amazingly - blossomed and thrived in a business environment of oppressive Corporate Domination, and they did it by focusing on the end-users of their products. They built an empire by, serially, listening and imagining something better for the User. They are still one of the best in the world at doing it, regularly, with excellence.

In the Age of Consumerism, which most experts say is coming to a close, the key to success was/is targeting the end-user's wallet with desirable products for Personal Use. That's how you get *inspired* to build the "All About Me, Not You"-Pod. Need to make more Money? Just add Dialtone. Yuk. Geniuses, yes, but still building to the "Rebellious Teenager Under the Headphones, in His Room, Who Never Grew-up to Meet the World" paradigm.

That's two things at - way overdue - end-of-life: "Me-and-Not-You" Thinking and Dialtone.

The WiMAX Tablet is not that! It's more like the tool that enables the rest of us to meet in the living room and share, and play and grow together.

Nokia is full of geniuses, too. The difference, imvho, is in the Wholesome Social Paradigm they are working with as a Corporate Culture. They 'go to market' like a healthy, balanced family goes through life - disciplined but supportive, strong but adaptable. They are truly worthy of carrying a significant portion of Finland's fortunes on their backs!

For me, they've earned my admiration with their products, and I trust them to do as good a job bringing us together with technology, facilitating Social Awareness, as Apple did for resourcing Personal Enjoyment - because, in this dawning Age of Community, Nokia are the kinds of people I want to meet...in the living room, at the coffeeshop, in the stands at the match, down the street at the library, on a mountainside, on the bus...

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

The iPhone falls into this new paradigm, by providing an always on connection. Yes it is slow, but available. As WiMAX rolls out, so will HSUPA. Two different means to the same end. I would imagine once this "always on" mentality hits critical mass, the iPod touch will follow suit and get this new connectivity.

I wouldn't say Nokia is ahead of Apple, and I wouldn't say Apple is ahead of Nokia at this stage in the game. Its great to see that both companies are racing to create an "Internet and Social Platform".

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

The always connected thing is a personal definition, I think.

To me, my N810 is always connected because I've told it to look for my home WiFi, and if not that, then hit up my N95's HSDPA connection. Don't pester me about it, just do it.

By tethering, Nokia's allowing me to A. choose whether *I* want to use HSDPA or EVDO or EDGE or whatever, without them having to build multiple versions and B. saving me money. I can use the same data connection on my phone and on my Tablet. With a WiMax tablet (or CDMA/EVDO, or whatever), I would more than likely have to have a separate data account for each device, thereby costing me more.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I don't agree with that at all. I think the iPod Touch (iTouch) will never have an integrated WWAN. I think that's the domain of the iPhone.

Instead, I see the iTouch essentially being like the NIT: it is an internet device that depends on getting a WWAN from some other device. It may at some point get bluetooth for DUN/PAN, but it might not. I think instead it will depend upon Wifi enabled devices (like the WinMo hack that allows you to share your phone's wifi as an access point instead of as a client). Though, personally, I wont ever buy an iTouch until it has a physical* keyboard of some kind (slide out, bluetooth, cabled, etc.), as well as non-jailbroken ssh and vnc clients (and if those things happen, Nokia should get really nervous).

(* though, an 8" screen version of the iTouch, with split virtual thumb keyboards, like the one on the Samsung Q1 (pre-Ultra), especially if they're translucent so you can mostly see the underlying application while you type, might make me change my mind about it needing to be a physical keyboard)


The iPhone is the "all-in-one" approach, an the iTouch is the "many devices" approach. That's why the iTouch is really the NIT's competitor, and not the iPhone.

It gets muddy, though, when you add WiMAX to the equation. Once you've added a WWAN, the NIT sort of half way moves into the iPhone's market. So the non-WWAN NITs compete with the iTouch, and a WWAN NIT is in a grey area between the iTouch and the iPhone.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I agree. WIMAX will make the next NIT very usable as a phone, and with nearly 4 time the resolution of the iPhone ...

To me its a no brainer.

In the US, WIMAX should appear anywhere you can normally get a Sprint signal.

The downside will be dealing with Sprint ...

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Don't get me wrong..I'm a techie. I have years of experience in the IT field. But, i'm finding myself disappointed/frustrated/stuck in the limited functions that the NIT currently offers. When I buy technology, I look at everything it has to offer. Stupid me for not knowing that there are different version of Linux and all Linux apps are not compatible with each other (that's what I get coming from a strictly Windows background and not knowing a lot about Linux).

The reason I bought the NIT was mainly for what it was designed (a quick fast way to get on the internet rather than dragging out my laptop). That is what the NIT is marketed as. The fact that it ran Linux apps was a plus for me (so I thought until I found out otherwise).

The web page for the N800 has this on the specifications:

Operating system

Operating system
Internet Tablet OS 2007 edition

Key applications (additional applications available)

Web Browser with Adobe® Flash® 9 plug-in
Internet calling with video*
Instant Messaging
Email
Media player
Internet Radio
RSS Feed Reader

My expectation was that there were apps I could install on it in addition to the fast easy internet accessability (especially on the go) for total functionality.

So, you can see why i'm let down by the NIT. It doesn't perform up to all my expectations.

That was one reason I bought and still use my palm pilot. Lots of apps and functionality for what I need.

I know what you are going to say... "get Garnet if you want to run Palm programs. Or dump your NIT and go back to your Palm and quit *****ing" but I haven't had any luck getting Garnet to run with the palm programs I use without having it screw up my OS2008 totally where I have to reformat my device.

People want full functionality in a device or they just won't buy it.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

No, no I really don't. There are tons of applications you can install on it outside of what Nokia bundles, and connecting to the internet is fast and easy. I really fail to see the point.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I just don't get it. The only reason I can think that Nokia doesn't add PIM to the N8x0 is because there already 3rd party applications that can be used. But then it makes me wonder even more why they wouldn't add that as a selling point?

I JUST found out about the whole ITs yesterday (I'm not into "tech" gadgets I guess you can say). I was looking for a Linux PDA or what kind of Linux PDAs are out there if any. Well after about 15 mins of searching I found about about the N800. I watch the videos and fell in love with it when I saw the price. After a bit I found out about the newer version, and I'll get that because I personally like the look of it, has a keyboard, and has GPS (even though I already have a GPS unit for hiking/camping).

Now I have been using Linux for about 5 years now and I'm one of those, "I'll die before I buy any thing Microsoft" kinda of Linux freaks :p. So the idea of having a Linux system in my pocket that I can surf the web with, IM people, e-mail, VoIP, do video calling, listen to internet radio, watch videos, use it as an mp3 player, AND add/port other Linux programs to. Well I damn near got an erection. I noticed for a while that no PIM programs were really marketed for it but there was a fairly big Linux community, Maemo, making programs for it so I just KNEW there was something I could use. And what do you know, there is, http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/nokia/index.html

So why the no PIM whinnying? Maybe I've been in the Linux community for too long and just come to accept that getting Linux to work the way you want it to work can be a pain and I've gotten much better with making it work for me, but come on. This IT has SO much potential. Just look at this, http://geekpenguin.blogspot.com/2007/12/mediamote.html :eek: This is why I know the N8x0 has so much to offer that Nokia doesn't even talk about. But then again I know that with Linux, there is so much you can do with it. Just sad that Nokia can't really advertise about how there is more it can do if you are willing to learn a little bit about Linux and have a Linux system.

The only think I can see people complaining about is how it isn't a phone. But like the guy on ThoughtFix said, you have more options if it doesn't. You have your cell phone on you that you can use to get to the internet if you want while not forcing you to use one cell phone company or another. As a college student I wouldn't be surprised to see these ITs pop up in colleges across the country since every campus is going wireless. The only reason I haven't seen one I think is because no one knows about them. I've never seen a commercial nor add for one. Nokia needs to advertise to college students. This IT is priced low enough and has enough easy of use (from the videos I've seen) for college student's to be a major market for buying the IT than say your computer techies alone. But PIM would be a must for college students. Hell thats what made me find out about the N8x0 to begin with.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on that.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I don't get his comments either...:confused:

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

There were big tablet promotions at several US college campuses last year. Hopefully there will be more (I have no idea).

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

The only reason?

Porting/writing a PIM suite is a non-trivial endeavor. It would take time and personnel away from other parts of the project that Nokia is actually interested in focusing on (web, media, communications, etc).

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

erm. those are the base functions of an internet tablet, are they not? web (microb), media (mplayer, media player, rhapsody, et al), communications (rtcomm, skype, gizmo, pidgin, et al), etc.

a PIM would just be an added feature for the people asking for one on top of it... well, read above.

the maemo porting/programming community will invariably come to the rescue in this glaring hole as well in the near future.

the reasoning behind no PIM thus far lay elsewhere.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Yeah, like I said, porting/writing a PIM suite costs time and money—time and money that's got to come from the core features of the platform.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I give 0/6 to pcpro for confusing PC and Microsoft.

Just made a test and searched for audio encoders and nothing is available for linux.


Then I search for an opensource ftp client.
None. They've never heard of filezilla.

Lame, really lame.

Not even going to look at their review, it's biased.

"Every program reviewed and virus tested"
lol

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Last I checked, the aforementioned base functions were in good shape. I'm quite sure if they can cobble together between one/two people the OS Hacker Edition versions, they can spare one person to port a PIM.

It's not like it's something that doesn't exist somewhere in their intellectual property somewhere.

Or do you think that a lot of people would be tasked for such an oft-requested feature and it would take away from the functional core set as it stands?

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Gerbick, there are a lot of things being worked on by maemo. GA is correct in that something has to give. No one wants the PIM/sync stuff more than I do, but even an impatient doof like me gets the concept of priorities... begrudgingly. :D

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

I totally agree.

But to blindly state that it would take away from other priorities makes it seem like Nokia is more grassroots than corporate; which downplays their size or importance pertaining the IT community.

Or perhaps it's the best description.

Either way, to just state that it'd be a personnel disruption is folly without stating proof. Opinions are like bums... each and everybody has one, yadda yadda.

Impatience aside, I'd like a PIM that would be worth my time as well. Patience is something I'm learning in regards to my N810. I was a bit too gung-ho with my 770.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Um... I don't see that (of course I have a different perspective). Even Nokia's resources aren't infinite. And there's a limit to how thin any organization can and should spread itself before becoming ineffective.

Resources allocated to a project tend to be proportionate to its perceived and/or current market. Hopefully the maemo group is growing appropriately. But *if* the functionality we're talking about is not in the current scope, for whatever reason, then it's not going to happen unless management changes that... and user insistence, in large enough scale, could make a difference.

Anyway, I'd rather we get the necessary infrastructure in place and let you guys create the ideal PIM. ;)

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Yes, Nokia is big and has a lot of resources, but maemo doesn't get the full force of Nokia's corporate resources whenever they please (as we can clearly see from the ongoing issues with the website). So, yes, it seems like they have all the power in the world and should be able to give some to maemo, but the fact is that that power is tied up doing other things (like working on cellphones).

The fact of the matter is that maemo is only so big in Nokia's overall money-making strategy, and the resources they get are based on that.

Resources are scarce, such are the nature of resources. More common sense than anything.

If you really want proof that maemo has limited resources, just look at the website issues . . . or the fact that we don't already have PIM. :\

Edit: See Texrat above. . . .

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Webservers != personnel. That was explained as a routing issue anyway.

The fact that we don't have a PIM is probably more complex than your simple manner of stating it. I'm more inline with thinking that Nokia is seriously disconnected with the wants and needs of the users and instead developing things as they think people want instead.

In simpler terms, they're acting like Microsoft. For example, nobody really wanted (or wants) Vista, but they delivered it anyway.

Anyway, the circular argument is that the website is indicative of their business. In that case, Microsoft's business is tied to their Hotmail/Live.com sites which have had spotty service as of late?

Exactly. The website has as much to do with why we have a PIM as Santa Claus and Godzilla. Nothing. The PIM and other oft-requested objects don't exist for other more concrete and pertinent reasons.

Either way... it will happen by the community quicker than Nokia.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

What 'problem' does an iphone solve?
What 'problem' does a gucci handbag solve?

People in afghanistan, sudan and iraq have problems.
We have lifestyle accessories.

Some more thoughts:
* Consumer wants are partially organic, partially marketing-born.
* Software isn't fungus. It doesn't just appear on its own.
* Microsoft prevents interoperability by breaking their own standards.
* Windows users would be less smug if they had to pay for their warez.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

after looking into GPE, i find that it should be able to sync with evolution and kde-pim stuff at least (opensync on the pc end), but the setup is non-trivial, involving ssh server on the tablet...

as for outlook or similar, no clue...

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

iPhone lets "normal" (i.e. non-geek) Americans make use of a smartphone.

The handbag makes its owner feel important about herself. It is the same thing as battle insignia.

You are mistaking Nokia's marketing strategy for reality. In Nokia's marketing strategy, Nokia is selling people "lifestyle accessories". In reality, people buy phones to satisfy a certain set of needs. These needs may not involve finding food or blowing up another hapless bunch of American soldiers, but they do exist.

The most important of these needs is to make a phone call (don't believe me? check how many dumb phones Nokia sells vs. its smartphone sales). Once you get past making phone calls, you get to several less important needs: instant messaging, email, web browsing, media playback. PIMs are actually in the third tier of these needs, somewhere at the same level with GPS. Office apps go next.

To turn this set of priorities upside down, you have to persuade customers that you are selling them not a phone, but something else. And this is very dangerous thing to do, as customers may just abandon you completely, concluding that you have nothing useful to offer them.

BTW, here is another very important point: customer needs greatly depend on the place where they live and on their lifestyle. 20-40% of subway riders in Moscow and probably 60-80% of Japanese train riders carry and habitually use smartphones or PDAs. In US, everybody drives a car and you can't really stare at the screen while driving: hence is the much lower popularity of such devices.

This is correct qualitatively, but you seem to misjudge the proportion between organic and marketing-induced needs. In reality, most customer needs are organic.

Can't argue with these three, but I can't see how they are related to each other and to the discussion topic. BTW, warez-wise, Symbian users are no less endowed than Windows users, so don't blame poor suckers for being too spoiled. They just have a bigger inferiority complex when it comes to mobile devices.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

It's easy and it works. You pay a hefty premium for that simplicity, but everyone I know who has one ( 3 people now ) loves it.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Give everyone in Afghanistan, Sudan and Iraq an iPhone and we'll have world peace. iPhone for world peace.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

i just hope they never set foot in a tech webforum...

the current "holy war" would be just a margin note...

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

You keep speaking of "needs"; perhaps this short article might help. The distinction between organic and marketing-induced "needs" is not one I'd care to make; marketing is merely one way of trying to persuade people that some desire is, in fact, a need.

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

no wonder i want to blow up every center of economic teachings on this world...

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Well, you may have noticed that your article talks about objective vs. subjective statements. Your "distinction between organic and marketing-induced "needs" is not one I'd care to make" is an example of a subjective statement. Objectively, the distinction is present though:

Organic needs do not require any additional expenditures to create. They already exist and just wait to be satisfied.

Marketing-induced "needs" (notice quotes) come at a price required to create them. This price may sometimes be very steep and can easily exceed the revenues expected from satisfying such induced "need".

To consider an example, let us say I have a great vision of an urinal that also works as a drinking fountain. Let us further assume that I somehow resolved the obvious sanitary issues with such a device. How much, in your opinion, will it cost me to induce a need for such a device in public? Do you think I will be able to cover my marketing expenditures by selling such devices?

Re: PC Pro gives the N810 3/6
 

Didn't they just buy a whole other company that effectively writes PIM suites (and dev tools)?

Seems to me that what we might see come out of the Trolltech acquisition is ... a standard phone app suite for Maemo.