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Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

derstandard.at is the online service of "Der Standard", a pretty mainstream, non-technical daily newspaper in Austria (they focus on politics and economy).

Today they feature an article about an interview they had with Quim Gil at GUADEC. Some things I hadn't read before:

The maemo-team had no idea that Nokia was about to buy Trolltech and heard about it in the media. At first they were stunned, but now they see some potential.
QT will probably not be in an official maemo release before 2010.
It is not certain that GTK will remain part of maemo. QT might as well completely replace it.
It is not certain that the next major release after Diablo ("Freemantle") will run on current N8x0 hardware.
more and more parts of maemo will be open in the future. Nokia as a company needs to learn how to interact with the community.

The article also goes on making assumptions about the features of Freemantle, based on what projects Nokia sponsors at the moment. The author assumes the major change will be the UI.

I thought I'd post it here, not only because I think it's interesting (especially the parts about Freemantle not running on N8x0 and QT completely replacing GTK), but also because I'm not entirely sure if Quim Gil knows what his German voice said in Istanbul. ;)

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

I don't read German, but sounds like a lot of speculation and conjecture based on what I know about the platform. Devices are supported for a minimum of two release cycles (i.e., Maemo 4 and Maemo 5). If Fremantle is released and doesn't support the N810, then the N810 will have only had one release cycle (even if you take Diablo as its second release, the N810W will still have only had one).

Fremantle is definitely shipping before 2010, and Fremantle will be bundling Qt, so that claim seems unlikely, andeverything that I've heard so far about Qt has been as something shipped alongside GTK, but not replacing it (this was definitely the tone at LinuxTag), so I'm not sure I buy that, either.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

That's what I found so interesting. The article says that Quim Gil made all these statements, except for the one thing about Freemantle focussing on a brand new UI.

Quote:

It is not clear if the current hardware generation will enjoy Freemantle at all, Quim Gil doesn't not want to make this promise. [...] The Nokia manager does emphasize, though, that one will not get by on the current hardware forever.

and so on...

As I stated above: I'm not really sure if Quim Gil would recognize these statements as his own when reading a translation, but if so, it is news.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 200799)

As I stated above: I'm not really sure if Quim Gil would recognize these statements as his own when reading a translation, but if so, it is news.

Hardly. A vocalisation of what some of us have since long suspected (or rather: known against all hope), yes. But news? No...

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 200680)

It is not certain that GTK will remain part of maemo. QT might as well completely replace it.
It is not certain that the next major release after Diablo ("Freemantle") will run on current N8x0 hardware.

Those two points I don't like. I don't mind Qt availability, but I really want GTK to continue. GTK is a C-level library while Qt is a C++ library. I'm not going to write a single application in C++, ever. Keeping GTK available ensures a much larger developer base (C, Python, vala for those of us who want to use object-oriented C/GTK apps. without writing C++, etc.)

The second point I don't like either, but I don't see how that can really happen, except by e.g. going to an incompatible ARM CPU and only provide binary, proprietary, necessary parts of the UI or some even more essential part of the system (kernel is _not_ a problem). Besides, it breaks completely with what Nokia people said after the 770->N800 transition fiasco.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TA-t3 (Post 200813)

The second point I don't like either, but I don't see how that can really happen, except by e.g. going to an incompatible ARM CPU and only provide binary, proprietary, necessary parts of the UI or some even more essential part of the system (kernel is _not_ a problem). Besides, it breaks completely with what Nokia people said after the 770->N800 transition fiasco.

TA,

All nokia needs to do to break compatability is to use features which do not run reasonably well on current hardware (maybe simply more complex algorithms, or simply a 3d interface)

Sure, you might get software running on current spec hardware but when you get framerates of 2-3fps (software rendering) its not going to be useful or rewarding: if we think current stuff is sluggish imagine how bad it would be..

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Actually, I didn't get the impression that he said that GTK might be replaced by Qt. Actually, Gil said that they "never invested more money in GTK+ than now"...

In general, a lot of things remain very vague in the article, as Gil pointed out he can't tell overly much about things that aren't set in stone yet, because otherwise it might be wrongly understood as a commitment...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing more about Freemantle at the Maemo Summit.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TA-t3 (Post 200813)

If Nokia pushes Vala forward, then we'll have much better OO language than C++, much faster than Python and much easier than C to speed-up the development and adoption. I hope this is the way to go :)

EDIT: On a 3D note - Clutter has Vala bindings already - http://live.gnome.org/Vala/ExternalBindings

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

I have seen in the wiki that quim is going to upload the presentation to him blog.

http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?titl...270&oldid=4269

Soon will be finished the speculations.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcuk (Post 200816)

All nokia needs to do to break compatability is to use features which do not run reasonably well on current hardware (maybe simply more complex algorithms, or simply a 3d interface

I can only see 3D (e.g. OpenGL) as a possible candidate for that. It would only mean that 3D wouldn't run, or run well, on an N8x0, which wouldn't be any worse than it is today. It's hardly a make-or-break feature (or none of us would own an N8x0 :)).

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerga (Post 200824)

I have seen in the wiki that quim is going to upload the presentation to him blog.

http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?titl...270&oldid=4269

Soon will be finished the speculations.

We should link to his blog then from the user posts right below the article... they usually get a lot of attention on derstandard.at.

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TA-t3 (Post 200827)

well, what if they redesign the whole UI to make use of this feature? just as an example...

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerga (Post 200824)

I have seen in the wiki that quim is going to upload the presentation to him blog.

http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?titl...270&oldid=4269

Soon will be finished the speculations.

If I could only get a decent connection to complete the upload of 50Mb of audio. In the meantime it would be useful and safe to rely on the original article. My german is decent enough to see that what the article quotes matches some of the (many) things I said. Perhaps someone feels like translating it?

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 200799)

That's what I found so interesting. The article says that Quim Gil made all these statements, except for the one thing about Freemantle focussing on a brand new UI.

There are some hints about a much revamped UI in Fremantle, for example: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2564#c7

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 200832)

Perhaps someone feels like translating it?

Will do...might take an hour or so :) - EDIT: done!

Quote:

Nokia wants GNOME and KDE to get together

Internet Tablets should also work based on Qt in future – Quim Gil of Nokia in talks with WebStandard about future developments and promises a continuing opening towards the community.

With Maemo, Nokia has created a new Linux-based platform for mobile devices three years ago by now. Based upon a subset of the GNOME desktop, this is still the central pillar of the GNOME-Mobile efforts.

Thus, the acquisition of Trolltech by Nokia has caused a few uncertainties, as they are the main force behind QT – the main competitor to GTK+, the base of GNOME, and so far a main part of the Internet Tablets.

Acquisition

An acquisition that has also caused surprise among the Maemo-Team. According to Quim Gil, Product Manager for the development platform at Nokia, they haven't known anything about the Trolltech take-over any sooner than the general internet public. He admitted that straight out in the talks with WebStandard taking place at the GNOME-conference GUADEC in Istanbul.

Temptation

By now, they have come to appreciate the new perspective: "Especially the possibility of sharing applications with other Nokia platforms like Series S60 is tempting", so Gil, who was the main organiser of the 2006 GUADEC in Villanova (Spain).

Schedule

It will take more time until this happens, though – while Gil did not want to commit to a definitive schedule, but QT will hardly become a part of Maemo before 2010. It is meant to be featured in the release after the next one, called "Harmattan", according to the release plan. Also, it isn't clear yet if it will be offered additionally to GTK+, or will completely substitute it.

Too early

It is simply too early to answer that definitely, Gil eluded the questions of the GNOME developers in a Birds-of-Feather-Session. Especially for a company like Nokia it is hard to give long-term promises, as they could be pinned down to certain statements. "A year ago, not even Googles Android was in sight", Gil says about the rapidly changing environment.

Parallel

He also doesn't want to rule out a parallel operation of GT+ and QT, as the resulting additional resource consumption would be balanced by the evolving hardware in the mobile sector. What is already clear now though is that, apart from the toolkit question, all other main parts of the Maemo platform will persist, as for example the interprocess communication protocol D-Bus or the hardware abstraction layer HAL. Also, the multimedia framework GStreamer and Telepathy for VoIP and Instant Messaging will still be used in the future.

Handover

That Nokia has handed over most of the GTK+ development to Immendio should not be interpreted as a sign of a quick abandoning of the toolkit according to Gil. "We invest more money in GTK+ than ever before", the Nokia Product Manager is emphasizing the commitment. In the concrete case, the reason was that a number of leading GTK+ developers have decided to leave Nokia simultaneously. Unfortunately it wasn't possible to quickly find new developers with the needed know-how, so they handed over the development to Immendio.

Together

In general, Gil hopes for a strengthened collaboration between the GNOME and KDE community in future, a step where Nokia will take an active role. After all, they are downright predestined for that due to the GTK+ knowledge and the acquisition of Trolltech. In that sense, the combination of the development conferences GUADEC and Akademy, that is confirmed for next year, is an important step in the right direction.

Summit

The release plan of Maemo places "Fremantle" as the next development step, which is based upon GTK+ anyway. Additional details will be only be revealed by Gil at the upcoming Maemo Summit, taking place in Berlin for the first time in September. The only mentioned thing was that "Fremantle, unlike Diablo, will be a major release."

Approach

A few details can be guessed already now, though – Nokia has made clear that the revision of the user interface has taken a much more important role since the iPhone launch. This point is further strengthened by Nokias support for the library Clutter, that can be used to ease creating animated, impressive interfaces. Furthermore, Nokia experiments with the desktop search Tracker, and location based services using the N810's GPS component will probably also be extended.

Hardware

At the moment, it is not confirmed that the current hardware platform will get to know the true promise of Fremantle, as Gil doesn't want to commit to either option just yet. A few things need to be cleared before it can be clearly said, but again, more details will be revealed at the Maemo Summit.
However, the product manager emphasizes that the current hardware will not be enough forever. The more advanced the software becomes, the more demanding it gets for the hardware, especially when more programs should run quickly at the same time, a wall is hit sooner or later.

Opening

A central target for Nokia in the next months is the further opening of the Maemo development, something that Nokia has to learn slowly by interacting with the open source community. For example, there will be a weekly release of the newest version of the Maemo SDK, and the Maemo Summit itself is another important step towards more openness.

Assumptions

Gil sees no contradiction between the need for secrecy about upcoming products by companies like Nokia and the maximum openness towards the open source community. "We will manage to do that", the product manager states confidently. There only has to be a strict separation between information for consumers and developers. Regarding the objection that the software might suggest upcoming hardware developments, Gil remains calm: "To have an assumption is one thing, to have an official presentation by Nokia something else entirely."

Andreas Proschofsky from Istanbul, derStandard.at, July, 8th 2008

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)

Tried to do a quick translation with strong help from google ;) - it's not alle that easy to translate such articles...

With Maemo, Nokia created a new Linux-based platform for mobile devices three years ago. Based on a subset of the GNOME desktop, it is probably the major component of the GNOME Mobile efforts.

Takeover

Therefore, the purchase of Trolltech by Nokia led to some uncertainty. After all, the Norwegian company is the driving force behind QT - the main competition of GTK +, the basis of the GNOME and, so far, a central part of the Internet Tablets.

A takeover which, at first, also caused perplexity within the Maemo team. They had not learned about the Trolltech acquisition earlier than the public internet audience, Quim Gil, product manager for the development platform at Nokia, clearly admits at the currently held GNOME GUADEC conference in Istanbul where he talked to derstandard.at.

Enticements

But now it seems they’d cotton up with this perspective: "Above all, the possibility to exchange applications with other Nokia platforms, such as the Series 60, is tempting," said Gil, who was the central organizer of GUADEC in 2006 in the Spanish Villanova.

Schedule

Until then, some time will have to go by, and Gil did not yet want to specify an an exact time frame. Between the lines, though, one could hear at GUADEC that QT was unlikely to find ist way into Maemo before 2010. The release plan shows this step only for the next but one release, code-named "Harmattan". What is not yet clear is whether it will be offered in addition to GTK+ or replace GTK entirely.

Too soon

It is simply too early to answer this, Gil put GNOME developers’ questions regarding the issue off at a Birds-of-Feather session. For a company like Nokia, it is difficult to make long-term promises, as they could later get nailed down to the statements. "A year ago, not even Google's Android was in sight," Gil points out the rapidly changing environment.

Parallel

Using GTK + and QT in parallel is something he doesn’t want to explicitly preclude, the resulting increase of needed resources being hardly an issue with the mobile hardware getting better. What is clear, though, is that beyond the toolkit-question all other core components of the Maemo platform should remain the same, be it the inter-process communication protocol D-Bus or the hardware abstraction layer HAL. The multimedia framework GStreamer and Telepathy for instant messaging and VoiceOverIP will continue.

Hand Over

The fact that Nokia delegated the GTK+ development for Maemo largely to Immendio now should not be, says Gil, be interpreted as a fast departure from the toolkit. "We invest more in GTK + as ever," the Nokia product manager stresses their own commitment. It was simly the case that a number of key GTK + developers had decided at the same time to leave Nokia. Unfortunately it was not easily possible to find developers with the necessary know-how, so they decided to outsource.

Together

In general, Gil hopes for a much closer cooperation between the KDE and GNOME communities in the future, a step in which Nokia wants to play an active role. After all, their strong GTK + expertise and the purchase of Trolltech makes them predestined for this. From this point of view, merging the two developers’ conferences GUADEC Academy, which now is seen as certain for the coming year, is an important step in the right direction.

Summit

In any case, Maemo’s release plan shows "Fremantle" as ist next step, a further development of the existing solution based on GTK+. Gil will reveal further details only in the context of the first Maemo Summits in Berlin in September, only as much: "Fremantle, unlike Diablo [the recently published, latest update to the Internet Tablet OS, Red Note], will be a major release ".

Approaching

Some details can also be guessed already. Nokia has already hinted that the overhaul of the user interface plays a much more important role since the iPhone-launch. This matches the fact that the company supports the development of Clutter, a library that simplifies the creation of animated interface. In addition, Nokia experiments with the desktop search Tracker, location-based services using the GPS used on the N810 will probably also be strengthened.

Hardware

It is not clear if the current hardware generation will enjoy Freemantle at all, Quim Gil doesn't not want to make this promise. Again, we should know more at the Maemo Summit, but at the moment there are still some things to be clarified.

The Nokia manager does emphasize, though, that one will not get by on the current hardware forever: The more advanced the software, the higher the demands on the hardware, especially when multiple programs should run fast side by side.

Opening

One of his key objectives for the coming months is the further opening of Maemo development, something that Nokia needs to learn in dealing with the open source community. Thus, there will be weekly new releases for the Software Development Kit Maemo, and also the Maemo Summit is an important step in the direction of „greater openness."

Conjectures

Gil doesn’t see any contradiction between the needs for secrecy of a manufacturer like Nokia and a maximum of openness towards the open source community. "We will get this done", the product manager is convinced. You only need a strict separation between information for consumers and developers. On the objection that it is possible to derive information about future hardware developments from the software, Gil remains calm: "To have presumption is one thing, an official announcement by Nokia something quite different."

Re: Quim Gil Interview on derstandard.at (German)