Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Also, this discussion is worthless unless we state our objectives before saying one device is better then another device.

For me, small size rules the day and thus my ideal device is the size of a deck of cards and fits my front pockets.

For someone that always carries a backpack or always wears cargo style pants, then, if I were them, I would carry a lot of different specilized devices also rather than the N9X which does evrything however doesnt do any of those things without a lot of compromies.

For instance I was blown away by the N8XX flash player with a webbrowser feature which is something the N9X just doesnt have.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

qole, if you are serious and do not have a cellphone than I have to say I truly admire you.


fatalsaint, you should never refer to the N8XX as having a camera. It makes me think your quality standards are low and further makes me wonder if your word processor is of the same quality.

Also, if you are talking about using your wifes camera then I know already you have no interest in divergence.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Ah.. well.. I do wear cargo's.. so having 1 phone on my hip and the 810 in my leg pocket is OK with me... and that's it.. all I need from home to mobile.

ETA: I do not do anything with a camera that warrants having some super high quality cam in my phone. A quick snapshot to send to buddies to giggle at is not something you need 1080dpi, 8 megapixel, 35mm, whatever resolution for. My wife has a professional multi-lense camera because she is a photographer.. I would not try and even remotely ask her to use any form of phone for her "camera" to take real photo's... And anything I would use for just a "funny" camera can be done just fine with a crappy n810 camera.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I see. You never said whether or not the word processor or other desktop app are practical to use on the N8XX.
Are they ?

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

That's a personal preference.. they certainly aren't as fast a Dual core amd64 with 4GB memory is going to run them.. but I use them just fine..

OpenOffice takes a minute or two to load all the way up, same with gimp, but once it's loaded and running I have little problems with them.. but YMMV and you may be less patient than me.. I am a rather impatient person though.

It also has a lot to do with what desktop environment you pick.. KDE4 or Enlightenment and you are killing yourself.. IceWM or running in maemo under chroot would be the fastest.

Personal preference.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Thanks. Thats all I need to know.

I can say unequivically the the N8XX is very awesome. If phone capabilities were added I have no doubt it could rule the universe as we know it.

I might do without hi-rez camera capabilities however I cannot do without phone capabilities.

I hope you are listening to me Nokia.

Oh, Nokia, please dont listen to thoses requesting phone capability be left out. They are wrong : )

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

If you really need OpenOffice you... like... run it on a faster computer on which you log in with SSH or whatever. Although unfortunately given the N8x0 only has WiFi it isn't a device which is perfect for travelling being online 24/7.

Symbian has rdesktop and ssh support for ages. The maemo platform also provides different applications than the Symbian platform.

All in all, I agree with the general tendency you outlined, and I will seriously consider to buy a N96 soon (or buy an older model like N82 or N95) because these devices provide more capabilities, and DVB-H is a very nice add-on because some broadcasts are for free.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Why??? It isn't unusable on the tablet for on-the-go document editing. It's great for sitting at a starbucks or something and working with what you need to work with...

For major stuff you COULD use X forwarding I suppose from a desktop machine.. I don't anymore though... I only use my tablet. Sometimes I go to the basement if my tablet is busy compiling or installing something but *shrug*.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

The N810W is a better convergence device than the N95, hands-down. It can make and receive phone calls as easily as the N95 (and it can do it for "free" via GrandCentral), it can surf the 'net, watch movies, run OpenOffice, etc., etc...

What's that you say? It doesn't work outside a very limited coverage area?

Well, you can't blame the fact that the support infrastructure isn't in place on the device! The problem is that there's no homogeneous high speed global wireless data infrastructure in place... yet.

Convergence, in any meaningful sense, can't really happen until you can use a single radio & protocol for all of your data and voice needs. "Smartphones" are, at best, hack jobs on the same level as my Debian chroot hack. They cleverly disguise the fact that they are putting two separate worlds (voice and data) side-by-side, and make it look like those two worlds are "converging". They aren't. The fact they are living on the same device doesn't make them "converged". They're not truly united, they're only uneasy roommates, always jostling each other around in your tiny box.

As I've said before, I blame the entrenched telcos for this. As long as they control the infrastructure, you're never going to see true convergence. They know that if they were to create a widespread, high-speed wireless data network, nobody would use their voice networks, and more importantly, they wouldn't be able to charge 15 cents a text message any more!

To put it bluntly, there's no profit in convergence. The only chance we have at convergence is a rogue third party to enter the scene, someone with deep pockets and no history in the wireless voice marketplace, someone who sees a profit in undercutting the telcos by creating a huge wireless data network... It would also help if they had some kind of infrastructure in place for something else, where they could piggyback their antennas on their existing infrastructure... Perhaps an association of cable TV companies, or maybe power companies? They could put the antennas on their big electrical towers...

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Or... a telco? one that realizes having the whole pie is better than having one-fourth of a pie twice the size?

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

No, you are wrong. Pthth :)

Personally, I would prefer that they don't hardwire one in and instead make it a card or slot radio device you can plug in, so that you can upgrade from one wireless generation to the next or so that you can go from one TelCo to another. A SIM card isn't enough--not every TelCo uses the same radio standards and a SIM card doesn't let you go from, say EDGE to G3. You would need a whole new device if it's integrated.

Myself, I'd rather tether over Bluetooth and use a PHONE form factor for talking on a phone. (Although BT earphones/headphones resolves that as well.) But the important thing to me if not getting stuck with a component of my device that I can't use.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Hahahahah! You're so funny! :D :D

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Why? Because OO.o isn't made for the tablet. Its too bloated for that. So you use Abiword and Gnumeric as alternative, you live with the slow speed of the application, or you use a remote desktop to a server (which you already use for document editting). If you sit at Starbucks I hope they provide you WLAN access, if not there is 3G (which is a reason I'd like to have 3G).

8 years ago, 8 years ago. Nokia Communicator. Telnet and remote desktop, later PuTTy as well. After receicing SMS had to wake up early saturday morning to do some work on the AS/400. Over GPRS no less!! And this device had 24/7 connectivity. Don't give me any bullocks a mobile device shouldn't have 24/7 connectivity, or not aim at such.

WiMAX isn't rolled out well as we speak, and AFAIK the WiMAX edition is only for US market. Here, WiMAX is only rolled out in Amsterdam while 3G has almost 100% coverage (KPN, Vodafone)! Europe, in general, has good 3G coverage. WiMAX and LTE are new and still competing to see which one will be the next standard.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

qole, are you kidding me ?

The N810W is a better convergence device than the N95, hands-down ?

It can make and receive phone calls as easily as the N95 ?

Please explain what you mean because Im always open to learn new things.

As it stands right now though those are the most "imaginary" statements Ive heard in this discusion.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Did you only read the first two sentences of my post?!

It is an amazing convergence device, if you are inside a Wimax coverage area. You can make and receive calls on your N810W using GrandCentral, Gizmo, or Skype, anywhere in the Wimax coverage area.

The problem is that Wimax has only a relatively tiny coverage area.

EDIT: The Wikipedia page is supposedly a "List of Deployed WiMAX Networks" but many of them aren't deployed and many of them aren't strictly WiMAX (like the thing Bell Canada calls "Wimax in Home")

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Sorry qole, I didnt read enough. But you also failed to include a camera as a convergence feature that N8XX is lacking. But just the lack of phone and camera capabilities is enough to remove the N8XX from anyones list of a convergence device.

allnameswereout, if you can, get an N95 8Gig. If you can use ATT I would get it because you get 1.3 download speeds for $14.99.

The N96 is just not that much better.
Ive only used up 6 gig and when I need to I move some things off.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I can't imagine how a camera could be considered an important feature. Cellular cameras are bad enough that they aren't even worth shooting with (even my mother's N93i was absolute crap). If I'm gonna take pictures, I'm gonna take pictures, not jpegs that I'll have to cringe at and delete later. :\

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Yeah.. I really don't see a camera as a necessary feature in a phone. Maybe with taking pictures of cards and uploading them to evernote. Then again the cell phones I've used usually get near 1 megapixel. But having seen the specs on most camera phones and used an iPhone I still don't see what's the hub bub about a camera phone. I'll take my Canon anyday. :) I guess it's if you want to take pictures when you see something random.

Then again I'm biased considering I take pictures that are usually 3000x3000 pixels. *shrugs*. I can also record video with it (yay for having big sized SD card slots).But for me my n800 + camera + cell phone works perfectly. I can even take the pictures from the camera and see them on my n800. :) Portability isn't a problem (n800 + case goes into pocket, cell phone on belt clip). For my camera, my gf bought me this nice camera carrying case that goes over my shoulder. So when I do carry my camera I just use that.

Now if only there were a good photo editing program on there. =P

As for cell phone capability, it would be nice to have it. Though personally not for me. You see I use the n800 for pretty much everything so if I actually needed it to make a phone call.. well I can guarantee you there would be a time where the battery would be dead when I need it.

But everyone's case is different.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Its tough agreeing on whats important in a convergnce device for everyone.

I would just say though that bear essentials are web browser, phone, camera, gps.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Agree, GA. I use a Camera or HD camcorder to take photos. If I'm caught without a camera, I might use the Nokia's built-in camera app to snap something in 640x480 but by no means do I consider it a photo-quality device. More often than not, dedicated hardware INTENDED to serve a purpose tend to serve that purpose well and a 'convergence device' tends to, at best, do only a reasonable job. That's my experience, anyway.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I agree, cellphones with camera can at best take crappy snapshots that you will throw away. Good photographs are taken with real cameras like DSLR or point and shoot. There is nothing like using my Nikon D80 with real lens. By thhe way, I bought my 1st cell 2 months ago, for 1 reason: emergencies. Finding somebody actualy stealing my car was the trigger. It will be useful when my girl friend will give birth soon...Otherwize, I prefer IM than phone.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

There is no AT&T here. Data plans cost between 7 and 10 EUR here for mobile phones (above the other costs) although these do have a FUP. IMO its very unwise to buy a N95 right now because in less than a month the N96 is released and this will lower the old stock of N95's considerably (at least -1 and -2 versions). I saw this happening with N95-1, too.

You're right about the differences between the N95-2/N95-4 and the N96. With software updates you can get your N95 a lot better (I heard even supporting DVB-T?) at least say A-GPS support. And, speaking of which, the on-board GPS on the N95-2/N94-4 series is also _very_ good. The difference between N95-2 and N96 is, all in all, not huge but if you look carefully, there are some small changes which quite change the usability. Improve (better form factor, good GPS when 'intact', better battery life with less strong battery), or in some ways perhaps even negative (slower processor, no 3D acceleration). I am definately waiting for reviews first.

As for the camera. I always want to carry a camera with me, and always do. Policeman beating an old lady and you want to photograph the event? N95/N96 is more than good enough. N8x0 isn't. Car crash, wanting to quickly take picture including license plate? N95/N96 is more than good enough. N8x0 isn't. Basically, the mobile phone of the N95/N96/N82 is good enough for most people. Heck, it even allows flawless integration with social networking sites. With geotagging. Would be hard to censor that. Professionals carry better, dedicated cameras. Sure. Worth the extra spice, time, and effort. Well, unless someone asks you to remove the picture, "or else..." :eek:

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Good point on the intention.

Clearly this doesn't make the camera on the phone useless unless you keep always using the other dedicated camera. Just because laptops and nettopts exist doesn't mean a NIT is useless. Even if you own both. It really depends on all kind of factors like the situations, purposes, your values, and how much you wish to invest (or might have already invested). :)

The camera on the N95/N96 is, for a phone camera, very good, BTW.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Yeah I see what you mean. Though it is possible to take pictures of a car and the license plate with the n800. I did it once when I saw a Bentley. But the picture would've looked alot better with a real camera (or even a camera phone. Though preferbly a camera). (not the n810 because the camera is in front and I'd have no clue how you'd even position that properly lol).

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Wow.. I sure am glad I'm not the only one going out of their way to take pictures of policemen beating on old ladies! Is there a Flickr pool for those yet? :)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Police brutality never gets old.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I guess the point of my post is that there still really isn't any such thing as a "convergence device" because there's no infrastructure. Anyway. Carry on everyone.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I will say this guys.

The N8XX must change or it, the device you and I love so much, will die.

There is only a small niche market for N8XX without phone features and I guarantee you that Nokia will not continue making it unless it picks up a broader appeal.

Listening to some of your comments about a 5MB camera being no good while 8MB phones are starting to hit the market, lets me thinks most of you have your heads in the clouds. Even if a camera were left off of the device if Nokia does not add phone features then you can kiss the N8XX goodbye.

And remember, "You heard it from me first".

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

qole, there is such a thing as a convergence device.

Its is the N95, N96, the iphone.

Statements like those let me know you are not thinking straight or somethin.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

You aren't reading what he said..

The N95, N96 and the iPhone are hack-job wannabe's that attempt to trick you into feeling a false sense of togetherness. A lot of work goes into to making it APPEAR transparent to you... but that doesn't mean it's actually transparent.

And still with the N95, N96 and iPhone you are locked into a specific carrier and stuck with a monthly bill on top of the $400 price tag that comes with it. With the N810 there is no monthly requirement.. and anywhere you find internet connectivity it does everything the N95, N96, and iPhone can do..

The N810 does it the right way, and i hope it continues, in that the device itself is a internet tablet starting point.. and anything else you want can be added - thus making a universal device. Want constant internet? Tether to a phone.. or in the next release maybe they'll make some form of insert chip/module that you can add to it - similar to the USB broadband modems running rampant in telco businesses now.. Want more software?? Load a new OS... Thus allowing the user to customize to their specific needs... not Nokia trying to guess what every user out there wants but allowing them to make it the device they want.

Freedom; not limitations; is the way a free, open-source, framework is supposed to be maintained. You're trying to stip the very reasons I prefer the N810 over something like the iPhone... Closed, locked down, require $$$ for everything, monthly payments....

Truthfully.. if the n96 and iPhone are your gig then great.. they are your gig and you can make suggestions for those developers to improve their platform... but don't try and get a completely different mindset to "improve" their platform by moving the direction of another platform.. The N810 is a wonderful device that is extremely unique in that it is essentially a Laptop that fits in my pocket. All I hope for is them to expand on the available software base for the default OS (which the community is helping in strides) - and the most important upgrades will be Better Hardware (CPU, memory, storage space, etc) while keeping it this size or similar. Nothing more need be added IMHO. With more stuff like Cell Phones come more restriction.. I get enough of being told what I can and can't do with the crap that I buy on a day to day basis.. I like the fact I can do whatever I want with my N810.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I think you meant 5MP vs. 8MP ;), but the point the camera nuts are making is not one of megapixels; I have a 12MP point-and-shoot, and it still takes pictures like a point-and-shoot. Not terrible, but not great, a good 5MP camera beats it for all practical uses. Fortunately for me, that's good enough; even a 3-5MP on a phone would probably do quite well for me. Not that I don't know the difference, but that photography is not a hobby for me, I get my wallpaper more from db than my own pictures, and I don't want to spend the cash on a good camera I don't have time/interest to properly enjoy.

(Which might be drifting OT, except that it makes a good point; since different people have different levels of need for a camera, some people might be cool with a convergence device camera; the same applies for internet device and telephone.)

As for phone capabilities, or at least GPRS/UMTS data connectivity, Nokia's dropped hints that those are going to happen in some model. WiMAX is coming already, so it's obvious that Nokia is interested in ubiquitous data access. If WiMAX does go belly-up, I think they'll have little choice but to refocus on GPRS/etc. access. Otherwise, those may come later, with a focus on the European market. (The reason they're involved with the Xohm push in the US first is probably because of their limited market share here; everywhere else, the N95 is probably the biggest competitor to the N810gsm, and so they don't stand to gain as much by that.)

And I'm with Qole this far: given a good data infrastructure the tablets can access, VoIP can give all the phone capabilites needed; actual GSM voice calls are as necessary to a modern convergence device as AMPS on a phone.

Bottom line: Maybe you totally need a telephone, and somewhat need an internet device and camera; N95 is a great fit, a phone with converged (=compromised, in some ways) internet and camera capabilities. Qole and I totally need an internet device, and somewhat need a phone; we'd like an internet device (N8x0) with a converged (=compromised, in some ways) phone solution like VoIP. The only problem is that there's no existing combo of thoroughbred internet device and ubiquitous network; the only way to get around that right now is to include a phone/modem as a second device. That's why Qole says it doesn't exist. (I'm willing to accept the N95 as converged; I'm working with a different definition of converge than Qole, evidently.)

(I also differ with Qole in pessimism about the possibility of such a network; I see e.g. T-Mobile USA offering unlimited data-only plans at $40/mo, and unlimited quantity data add-ons (for voice plans) at $6/mo (with port-filtering) and $20/mo (w/o filtering); if they achieve decent 3g coverage (which they seemingly plan to) that looks like they're headed there.)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Sorry. I disagree that convergence has anything to do with your carrier/service provider. With all due respects, and I really do respect you guys completely, thats another weird statement.

Thats like saying a convergence device has to be yellow or it has to be made in Greenland.

Sure, having no service fee is "cool" however not being able to make a phone call when you are out of wifi/wimax range is "not cool".

The N8XX is like a laptop in your pocket. The N9X and iphone are also.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

N9X and iPhone cannot run full Debian Linux and give me access to all of my desktop software in my pocket.

No matter how poorly they do or don't run.. the option is there for me to use any software on my Laptop on my N810; with zero learning curve. It's the same software.

Finding "equivalent" software for a n95 or an iPhone, if it even exists, means a learning curve and means it's not actually my Laptop, in my pocket. So that statement is as weird as the statements you find from us weird.

ETA: Not to mention.. I can add 10's of 1000's of software to my N810; space permitting; without spending a dime. Amazingly like my laptop. I can't add 10's of 1000's of software, space permitting, to an iPhone without spending money. I can get "free", "basic" trial versions.. but not full blown, completely developed software. At least, not as many.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Yeah, I'm pretty bitter and pessimistic, I know. Without an obvious fountain of profit, I can't see any of the current carriers offering true high-speed data networks any time soon... They're only offering these things they call "unlimited data" because they know they can squeeze you in other ways.... Can you do good VoIP over this data-only plan? Is that $40 all you have to pay (no 3 year contracts, etc)? How much do the devices to access this network cost?

I hope you're right Benson. I really do.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

fatalsaint, what is your point. You sound as if you think, that I think, that the N9X is a better and more robust device than the N8XX.

That is not what I think at all. I would throw my N9X away in a heart beat if the N8XX allowed me to make a phone call via the cellular networks.

The N8XX is a far more superior device however if you are looking for convergence, and most people are (except the niche internet tablet folks), then walk right past the N8XX.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I guess... I suppose if carrying one device is worth the compromise then it makes sense.

My BB pearl is 3 inches long and 2 inches wide, give or take, and just sits on my hip; not in anything's way... so I prefer not to sacrifice or compromise functionality to get rid of a device that isn't bothering me anyway. If my N810 needs internet.. it's available via the pearl.

I just don't want nokia to move into locking the tablet devices down. I enjoy doing whatever I want with it.. including loading a new OS. The more proprietary hardware that is added the harder getting any normal OS to run on it will be. That trade-off isn't worth it for me =-(.. and I would not bother upgrading if the N900 did it. We are already experiencing the draw-backs of proprietary hardware by having a 3d accelerated video chip - and no way to make it work.

Moving into the cell phone market will just make it worse.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

OK, I agree that there is such a thing as a convergence device; and I have had a few of them for a while now. It is the Internet-connected PC.

I have a server in my basement, tied into my phone line (so my wife can make cheap Skype phone calls to her grandma in Germany, also so my friends in other countries can call me for free by Skyping me), and holding hundreds of hours of music and video, and thousands of digital photos that we've taken over the years. I have another computer behind my TV and an old PIII laptop on the kitchen table (or folded up on the bench when not in use).

When my wife makes a long distance call on her cordless phone via Skype, sends some digital photos to the local supermarket for printing while sitting at the kitchen table, or presses "play" on the remote in the living room so my daughter can watch Thomas the Tank Engine go off the rails yet again, she's using my "converged" network of PCs. When I put Radio Paradise on the speakers in various rooms in the house, it is coming from California via my "converged" network.

The reason why I believe the N8x0 is a better "convergence" device is that it is a hand-held, Internet-connected PC, the very essence of "convergence" for me. You can make phone calls on it and you can be on all of the IM networks, so it is a great communicator. It plays media fairly well, and it can do most anything a PC can do. Some people use it to tune their cars, some use it to tune their guitars.

I truly believe the whole mobile phone industry, as it currently stands, is an evolutionary dead-end. True convergence won't happen until they discard the whole idea of closed, proprietary communications entirely and everyone is carrying around hand-held, Internet-connected PCs. I don't care who makes them, I don't care who provides the services, as long as I can get on the 'Net with my device (for a reasonable flat rate of course) and use any application I want to do what I want.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I just dont think Nokia can continue with the Nokia N8XX the way it is now cause the sales guys in the Nokia store in Chicago whisper to me that the N8XX just doent sell much. If this is true than dont expect to see the N8XX around long in its current incarnation of not making phone calls

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

your impossible.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

We like being impossible.

It makes the companies that want to sell to us come up with new, innovative ways to provide us what we want.. the impossible.

If people were always happy with what they got... there would never be any moving forward.