Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Well.. that'll learn you guys good.

If you aren't prepared to impulse buy you must not want it!!! :P

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Isn't it weird? My buddy was a Newton enthusiast from day one. He never seemed to worry about losing software support; he was worried about hardware replacement. I get it now. But that doesn't mean I think it's cool.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Yeah, it's not as if all the power went out just as I was clicking. If that was the case, I might not be here to post this. And we all know that would be a shame.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

a) Cavemen vs Renaissance Men

There's too many mixed ways to read that, so it's really just a way for any given person to try to characterize themselves as enlightened and their detractors as backward and stupid. Ego stroking factions aren't going to help the community go anywhere useful. Grow up.


b) "What I want in a convergence device" ... Hmm....

* Open Source platform, so I don't have to worry about it shutting down and going into the nether regions. Maemo is, as far as I recall, 90% open with a few key drivers that aren't (with lots of chatter about whether or not that's Nokia's fault). Has that changed? Even still, for now, Maemo is close enough. But, with Ubuntu Mobile on MIDs, Android, the opening of Symbian, and the imminent release of Pandora ... it's hard to say that Maemo is the only current open source handheld platform.

* physical qwerty keyboard -- I kinda like the split thumb keyboard more than the side-slider format (N810) or micro-laptop (E90), both of which I like more than the "half of the face" keyboard (E71, E61i, Blackjack, etc.). The problem is getting a split-qwerty into a device that will fit in your pocket and still has a decent screen size (the E70 having the split keyboard, but too small on the screen). If I want a convergence device, one device I'll use for everything, then I'd probably have to go with something in the general format of the N810 or E90. Of the two, I'd prefer a re-vamped E90.

* ssh that has port forwarding (for use with my next requirement)

* vnc client/viewer (which will require some decent screen real estate; nothing smaller than the N810's screen, nor resolution)

* decent RSS reader (Maemo's is not yet good enough here, but I mostly like it; anything else would have to be better ... fully drivable via touchscreen or buttons, it would be nice to see it eliminate redundant articles from related sites (multiple feeds from one host, same article text, but unique URLs? either give me 1 summary and 2 URLs, or 1 summary and 1 URL ... but when they have the same article URL? just show me 1 summary with 1 URL), and have the option to have the feeds flow together; Maemo's home applet would be better if it eliminated redundancies, could optionally show you the summary text, and could be used to directly say "save the article" without having to open the main RSS reader ... or, without the article summaries, if you could tell it to JUST open the article summary for that article (instead of that entire feed), when you open the main RSS reader)

* mozilla based web browser

* thunderbird based IMAP client

* TXT based notes

* calendar with to-do

* address book

* sync calendar and addressbook to my desktop (linux and/or mac required) and/or google

* sync bookmarks to netvouz

* integrated IM and addressbook, with support for AIM, Yahoo, MSN, IRC, and Jabber (and SIP, so a SIP client, too).

* Skype and Gizmo clients would be cool. Vonage would be a nice bonus.

* usb client, hopefully for charging it, but at least for syncing and mounting as a hard drive (it'd be nice if, unlike the S60 devices, you could do both at once). As I mention below, I also want usb host capability. I don't want them on the same port though, so "1 usb client, 1 usb host-and/or-otg".

* Wifi built in (not "you must share your external SD slot for both removable storage and Wifi").

* Bluetooth (with both DUN and PAN, HID as both device and host, and BIP as both device and host) (no, I don't consider the current state of PAN support to be good enough, unless that got more integrated into the control panel wizard with Diablo, I haven't checked).

* GSM/UMTS with either variants or dual support for AT&T and T-Mobile-USA (you said convergence, which means "I wont be carrying both a phone and a PDA/IT and a PMP" -- so anyone who wants convergence can't be in the anti-phone-in-IT camp). It should have SIP and UMA support as well. Variants for CDMA/EVDO and WiMAX would be cool, but I'm a GSM boy.

* I'm not big on PMP stuff, but it'd have to have decent things here to support that if this is going to be a convergence device (as I said in my last bullet item). The ideal would be having something that directly/easily/seamlessly integrates with: "Comes with Music", iTunes, Rhapsody (stream _AND_ cache/download), Amazon's service, maybe even the Zune service, and any services offered by carriers (T-Mobile has one, for example), and self-downloaded/ripped files. I doubt that'll ever happen.

* capability to plug into a KVM switch and let me use it as a light/thin workstation. So, either a docking connector, or USB Host and Micro-DVI connectors (preferred over HDMI and VGA, since DVI with DVI-A can be converted to both HDMI and VGA, but HDMI and VGA based connectors are less flexible). And, support for more resolution than the N810 (the native device could just be 800x480, but it better be able to externally display 1280x1024-ish, and have the interface scale accordingly). (or at _least_ 1024x760-ish)

* two small batteries, or one standard battery and 1 tiny (button) battery so you can hot-swap batteries

* extended battery options (replace one of the "2 small" batteries with a bigger battery, but hopefully in a way that still leaves the device comfortable in your hand)

* external battery options (there are few products on the market for this, just make sure this device works with them, if it isn't going to have dedicated ones of its own)



However, I'm not 100% convinced that what I want is a convergence device. I might actually prefer a gateway device, and utility devices. But, so far, there is no such acceptable gateway device. What is an acceptable gateway device?

* preferably has variants for GSM/UMTS (Euro, Asian, AT&T, and T-Mobile-USA support, preferably in _ONE_ unit, and it'd be REALLY nice if it had two SIM cards), CDMA/EVDO, and WiMAX.

* has a SIP server built in, so that I can utilize its voice network capabilities from my utility devices. Possibly also being to use its SIP sever to gateway to things like Skype, Gizmo, and even Vonage. And UMA support would be cool, for those using T-Mobile as their carrier.

* has a jabber server built in, so that i can utilize its SMS/MMS capabilities from my utility devices.

* can act as both a wifi client (for paid hotspots and such) and a wifi access point (for my utility devices). Preferably with more than just WEP for privacy/encryption (that's all joikuspot supports, for example). Preferably able to do both simultaneously (so that I don't have to constantly juggle the connections of the utility devices).

I doubt that Android will be doing this right out of the box, but my biggest hope right now is that the G1 will be able to handle those last 3 things as add-ons and/or hacks. And if it has decent support for most of my convergence device needs, then it could actually function in both worlds (use it in my hand as a replacement for my N810 and E61i, use it alongside an iPod Touch and Samsung Q1 Ultra as a gateway device for those utility devices when I need something bigger and/or specialized).



If anyone knows of something that has all of either of those... let me know, but so far, no device out there meets all either my convergence or gateway desires.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

johnkzin, telling me to grow up is eqotisical. You obviously have not be reading this thread from earlier on otherwise you would know that the you-people, thoses-people, caveman stuff has just been light-hearted humor and everyone that been involved knows that, accept you.

Im all grown up for your info.

You create a new thread and put your lengthy diatribe inside there.

This thread is lighthearted and useless and not desrving of anyone coming along and taking it too serious. Go and start a new and more serious thread.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

NO U!!!

(couldn't resist)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Actually, I did read the early parts of the thread. I've followed the thread from the start (though, I think I might have missed some of the middle posts).

But, given that there have been lots of condescending and caustic things said on these boards between the "no radio, not a convergence device" group and the other side, it was rather easy for me to assume that the last few pages of "caveman" talk were more of the same ... no matter _how_ the thread started.

That said, if it was all in humor, I'm sorry for the "grow up" comment. However, I'm not at all sorry for a serious post about what I would or wouldn't want to see in a convergence device, since that IS the title of the thread.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Note for the JUST joining among us: yes--intended to be funny.. and preferably read with a nasal and arrogant Harvard tone:
I abhor these.. MENDICANTS that show up asking our opinions and then cast upon our debate the label of 'childish.' To them I say, "Poop on you.' Yes, I say, 'Poop.' So there. Now I've said it.

That's okay. Please, by all means,join in. I like the petty bickering in this thread. :)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

It might be time for a poll:

When do you think this thread will be froze

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

IBTL!!! (dang... Post is too short.. THAT blows.)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I hear ya. When are they going to get off their asses and get the xulrunner version of Thunderbird done? I'd love to have the 'Bird on my tablet.

A convergence device would always be on-line, and therefore the concept of syncing becomes irrelevant; just store your addresses, bookmarks and calendar online and consult it from both home and device. Sync is a kludgy workaround for a problem that will go away soon, I hope. I hope soon we'll all be wondering why anyone wanted sync.

I disagree. Well, I want a phone in my IT (preferrably several phones, that's what convergence is all about, no?), but only via VoIP. See my lengthy rants above.

Hm, again, I think an always-online convergence device shouldn't have any (unique) data actually stored on-device, or anything stored on it should be easily transferred to the Internet. Therefore, any old terminal in any old place should do the job to get you big-screen access to your data. My question is: if you already have a KVM, monitor, keyboard, etc, etc, why wouldn't you have a computer? And if you have the computer, why would you use your handheld instead?

Video-out to watch movies or play games on a hotel-room TV, or make a spur-of-the-moment presentation in a random boardroom, on the other hand, would be nice.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Same time as Hell.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I started this thread. I have no idea where its going now. It has been funny and I must say, its been civil.

At the same time I dont agree with freezing or censorship.

Look I just want the last freaking word. I think thread starters should always have that right.

Therefore I propose everyone post to their hears delight in this thread about any crap that they want however at 3PM Friday 8/29/2008, I will come in and get my last word in okay. Cant say what that last word will be however everyone should agree to not post behind me. My last word may be as simple as "Last Word". Or, it could be a cut/past of the New Testament.

However, no admin should come in and give me a false sense that I got my last word and freeze this post at 3:01PM.

Additionally, no admin should freeze this thread before 3PM.

Its obvious that I have a lot of time on my hands here right ?

Imagine the amount of free time johnkzin has for him to have been able to type all the stuff he typed.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Is that about the same time when there's nothing left but the rats, the cockroaches and Keith Richards? No...wait...that's a heating event.

What will you do then? Oh, I know, you'll be with Keith back in the stone age...

Thank you. I'll be here all year. Tip your waiters and try the browser.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Oh, my last word could also be, "N95 8G roooooooooooooccccccccks".

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I think quoting Russell Hammond would be more appropriate.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I saw that before.
lol.
hehe.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

There is a Hell, Michigan (go ahead, look it up). And, being in Michigan, it is prone to freezing over in winter.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Nothing is _always_ on-line. Even my DSL line (or someone's cable modem, or my work's multiple T-3's) goes down. There are cellular dead spots and areas outside of cellular coverage, etc.. If I'm in a dead spot, and want to call someone on a landline, it'd be nice to be able to look in my addressbook to do so, but your concept wouldn't allow me to do that. Devices that depend upon being online are "part-time paper wieghts", and I sincerely do not want to _ever_ own such a device. That's not what convergence means to me. Convergence means "brings together the functions of multiple devices", not "becomes braindead because of an over-dependence upon the unreliable features of one of those multiple devices".

Or what if netvouz is down, and I want to find that bookmarked but not quite remembered site? (don't say "use google bookmarks or delicoius" -- folderless/tag-only bookmarking systems suck posterior orifices; but even setting that aside, it IS conceivable that google could go offline, same with delicious) Even if they don't crash, it's nice to know that I have my own copy in case I switch online services, or one goes out of business, etc.

From there, it would be nice to know that all of my addressbooks (and calendars, and to-do lists, and bookmarks) are in sync with each other, so that there aren't confusing conflicts (or omissions) between different pieces of data.

OR.. what if I decide to let my data plan lapse, and just have voice/SMS/MMS for a while and just do wifi for data? It'd be pretty annoying to not have a local copy of my addressbook just because I'm outside of a wifi hotspot.

Even you say "anything stored on it should be easily transferred to the Internet" which says "I need a way to sync the convergence device to some other thing", whether that other device is a desktop or a cloud service. And, what about those cloud services that are inadequate or undesirable to the individual? There is going to be data I want to put on my handheld and not on an online service (non debatable). And I want those files to be backed up, in case the handheld dies.

As for "if I have a keyboard, monitor, and mouse, why wouldn't I have a computer, and why wouldn't I use that instead of my handheld device". Well, for one, if my handheld device is up to the task of processing/storing everything I need for email, IM/SMS/MMS, web browsing, and ssh keys, and things like that, why would I need to offload that to a desktop computer? When I want a bigger/faster _input_ method, what I need is not "a bloated piece of sand, plastic and metal that does a great imitation of a space heater" ... what I need is a bigger screen, a bigger keyboard, and maybe a different pointing device. Why not attach those to the handheld? It's already up to doing that job just fine, it just needs a bigger screen and faster keyboard for a little while. Shutting down the handheld and moving over the desktop is pointless (and has an annoying side effect of leaving around multiple out-of-sync chat logs and multiple devices, for the case of IMs).

That doesn't mean I wont also have a desktop or laptop, for those tasks that really can't be done on the handheld (long term personal/private/sensitive file storage, backing up the handheld, CAD work, rendering, home email server, home media server, etc.). Which is why I mention the KVM (why not re-use the same monitor, keyboard, pointing device that I'm using there already?).

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

For 69 Euros / Months .... hum ... i don't want that !

I use it mainly in the train and subway ... where network coverage is not so good.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Troublemaker.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Or he just types really fast.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

THE convergence device is the Nokia 9000.
Forever.
The rest is b*llsh*t.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

A GRAPHICAL LCD!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!!1!!11!11

Sign me up!

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

johnkzin & Khertan: I may have mentioned before that I don't believe there is such a thing as a True Convergence Device yet. Why? I'll say it again: BAD INFRASTRUCTURE. We don't have everywhere Internet yet, and until we do, everything is a crummy hack job.

I was going to step through your arguments one at a time, until I realized that you're still not getting it; convergence hasn't happened as long as you can talk about voice, data and text messaging as different things.

Yes, in the future, we are going to become very very reliant on the Internet, and we are going to be fairly lost without it. I know I feel pretty lost without it already, and we aren't anywhere near everywhere Internet yet.

I think in a few years the concept of syncing will be very low priority. Occasionally someone will want to do it, if they're going to a boat-access-only cottage or something, but most of us will not even think about such a thing. Our handheld devices will be access points to our "application/data set," and everyone will have "a set", but most people won't be able to tell you where their data and applications are actually stored. Some geeks will still keep a home server to hold their data and serve their apps, but most people will just trust someone else, Google or whoever replaces them, to take care of that stuff for them.

Also, you should never keep the master copy of any data on your handheld (or laptop, for that matter). Not now, not in the future. Believe me now, or wish that you had later. ;)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

We'll never have what you're talking about. I live in Silicon Valley. I work on the coast. In the mountains in between there are tons of nooks and crannies where there will simply never be wireless coverage. And, yet, people live in those nooks and crannies (one of my IT coworkers, for example). What if you're stuck in one of those canyons, with one of the many luddite mountain folk, and you need to use your device? (like the example I gave, where you need to use a landline to make a call, and you have no connectivity options at all for your handset)

With _YOUR_ convergence device, you're screwed. No addressbook, no local notes store, etc.

With _MY_ convergence device, I'm fine. I can ask to use their landline real quick (just because they're luddites doesn't mean they're jerks), and everything is great.

Further, if your convergence device was even on the market, I wouldn't buy it. I'd keep using my convergence device. And, I bet you'll find people like me would at least continue to make enough of a niche market (if not bigger than a niche) that we'll always have our devices available to us. After all, X-terminals, Javastations, Thin-Clients, and their like have yet to displace low-end computers. The balance between these two perspectives is a constant ebb and flow, I'll give you that. But neither ever eliminates the other.


So, you're talking about idealistic pie in the sky theoretical convergence, and I'm talking about here-and-now practical convergence. (which isn't actually a criticism on my part, I often talk about that kind of "theoretical/idealistic/as-it-should-be" type of technology as well, but as Mahan pointed out wrt naval warfare, if you don't keep yourself fully immersed in both the theoretical and the practical, you're going to have problems .... practical beats theoretical, but the balance beats the pants off of both of them)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I will say though that qole, while being a really smart guy and a real lover of the N8XX, has a really warped sense of what convergence means to 99% of the people.

His first criteria is his "always connected" proclamation.
His second is "infrastructure being seemless".

There nothing wrong with all this but its just not going to happen for 10 years.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Qole is talking about the "perfect convergence device," the topic of this thread. His idea may seem weird now, but it makes perfect sense. In the future, there won't be any "dead spots," internet speed will be a thing of the past (aka everything will be instantaneous), etc. etc...

But more interesting to me is the real convergence device. In the future, I don't think it will even be called a device. Just an extension of the body. Probably some sort of implant so we become augmented with a computer inside our brain in a sense. (Bad example: Halo).

For example, if I look at a ice cream shop, a list of items sold will pop up in my head, a list of people who I know who recommend the shop will pop up, and anything else you wanted (maybe a list of the ingredients and nutrition facts, a 3d video of the inside of the store in real time, etc...). If I want to "call" my friend across the globe, I just think of his name and I can talk to him, video chat, play a game, etc...

That is the "perfect convergence device"

(Oh snap, its the LAST DAY of this thread. Get the bomb shelter ready)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

You don't need Internet everywhere in order to call a convergence device a convergence device. I don't give a rat if they have WiMAX in Antarctica or if they use penguins as carrier of information because I won't visit that place any time soon. For me, the same counts for the USA. For an American, the same might count for Japan or Europe. And I bet 100% of the ItT visitors don't care whether they'd have connectivity on the Moon or on the Sun or Pluto.

You need Internet to all the places you're usually visitting or are planning to visit. If connectivity isn't there it matters whether how important it is that you don't have Internet connectivity on that moment. This is for example related to how you use your NIT (or `convergence device').

For example, Amsterdam now has about 100%* WiMAX coverage while a flat free data plan costs IIRC 15 EUR a month. If you're in Amsterdam 90% of the time you wish to use the Internet this might be worth it, but if you're in Amsterdam a week of your whole life this probably won't be worth it although if you're on vacation in Amsterdam those 15 EUR a month might be worth the hassle you'd have otherwise.

(* Outdoor, indoor is a toss up for now, but soon this problem is solved.)

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Actually, I live in a very mountainous place, too. All the little "nook and cranny" 400-person towns have high speed Internet now (just in the last 5 years). A weird thing is happening; in nook-and-cranny places where you can't get cell phone reception, you can find open wi-fi APs. My co-worker told me of a story where he was camping and he couldn't get cell phone reception. He was walking the dog and he discovered that his N810 picked up an AP from a cottage nearby. The old guy in the cottage came out and asked him what he was doing, and he told him he was checking his e-mail on the guy's Internet. The guy said, "Ahh, so that's why people keep parking in front of my house and just sitting there."

Nah, thin clients were a bit of a dead end. You definitely want all the computing power you can stuff into your device.

Agreed.

As for here-and-now can-be-done convergence, I still want a little bluetooth module that ties my tablet to some kind of high-speed data network. It should be the size of my Holux M1000 and it should come as part of a $40/month unlimited data plan. Is that so hard?

Technologically, no. Politically, yes.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Is it a political problem? Or just lack of market? (About the data plan side, IDK. You've heard the sum total of my knowledge of T-mobile's data options, which is the closest I know of; it fits your criteria if you can get it with no device or with a BT modem only.)

But on the device side, there's a number of very similar devices available; they differ only in using USB vs. BT. The BT is substantially better than USB with precisely three devices I'm aware of: Nokia 770, Nokia N800, Nokia N810. Everything else that wants high-speed data either lacks Bluetooth (e.g. iPod Touch), has USB (i.e. Eee701, netbooks, UMPCs, etc.) or has it built-in (smartphones). Wikipedia suggests a single Zaurus model (probably with less market penetration than the Nokias) that could use it, but that's all I know of.

Not to mention there's a lot more room for politics on the network/plan side anyhow; anyone can produce GSM hardware, and if they see a market, somebody will.

You could conclude that there are political barriers to these few devices, and not to the whole world of netbooks, laptops, and UMPCs; you could also conclude that the market is small enough it's not they don't realize it's profitable to develop the hardware.

Of course, I am still looking for such a device too, but the (painful) absence is, IMHO, a simple result of the small market for a BT modem.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Yes, Benson. That's what I meant. I was just trying to say that human factors are the problem, not the technology, but you're right, "politically" isn't the right word... "capitalistically?"

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Thesandlord, I kno u d'int say:

"Qole is talking about the "perfect convergence device," the topic of this"

This is not to topic of this thread.

I started this thread so I should know what the topic is and you don't.

Perfect or future is crap, pie in the sky and I did not start this thread to discuss qoles perspective on a convergence device.

I just wanted to say the N95 8G is cost effective, small, and available right now. It is not perfect though.

qoles ideal device, if he ran Nokia, would drive the company into the poor house cause his idea of a convergence device will never happen for almost a decade.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

In todays market, no one would buy qoles device.

They would be sitting on the store shelves.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

btw, anyone know of a bluetooth heart monitor device that works with my Symbian N95 8G.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Hmmm... topic of this thread:

Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.

Oh, I get it; the real topic of this thread:

A troll and his money would be soon parted if he had to pay 1¢ / view.

Oh, BTW, forum threads aren't IRC channels; funny how that works.

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I didnt mean

perfect as in "perfect".
I meant
"perfect" as in perfect

Huge difference

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

What do you mean?

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

Hou R thei diffrent??

Re: Found perfect convergence device. Its not a N8XX.
 

I'm not talking about towns. I'm talking about "no more than 2 or 3 houses in that nook and cranny". And they're all luddites. And, yeah, those exist. Even less than 40 miles from the center of Silicon Valley.

Yet, the device you're talking about is essentially a thin-client. Which doesn't mean "lower CPU power" it means "little to no local state". There are plenty of thin client devices out there that have currently moderate consumer device CPU speeds. They just don't have local storage (the better ones give you a card slot, or support for USB drives, though).

Technologically, not very hard at all, if you're willing to go slightly larger. Look up the CradlePoint routers. One of them has an internal battery and will work with USB dongles. Another one has an ExpressCard slot (but not an internal battery). My problem with them is that they don't give you support for the voice and messaging aspects of the (current) WWAN environment. I'd like to see them add a small SIP server and Jabber server, for the reasons I outlined previously. And add a model to the lineup that has a battery AND an express card slot.

Oh, and they're 3G only (HSPA or EVDO, they disconnect when you're in an EDGE or 1x area). That's the other thing I'd like to see them fix.

The hard part is probably the $40/mo. But that's not technology nor politics. That's sales. But the current price from the carriers isn't TOO much more than that ($10-$20/mo more).