Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

Well, one of the big reasons for non-sincere voting (practically the only one) is that there are consequences; Vote for the guy you like, and the guy you hate will thrash the guy you mildly dislike.

In a poll, it doesn't work that way; there are secondary ways to game with polls, I know, like trying to persuade your opponent that to sit on a "lead", but they're much less prevalent.

The primary outcome is seeing your candidate do better in the polls, so you're most likely going to vote for your candidate. Especially on the ones that ask your vote for each of a series of possible pairings, so in each case it's a pure two-candidate race, and there's no issue with "do I help my real candidate or my practical candidate?".

In fairness, C doesn't apply here because it was not meant as a prediction of election results, but as a measure of the itT crowd, including those who were ineligible to vote. Would it be wrong to try to predict the election outcome with this? Well, only about a half-dozen different ways! That doesn't invalidate it for it's purpose though...

Maybe I'm a one-trick pony here with my election methods, but I don't see polls as being that big a problem. Are they unreliable? Yes. (Some are decent, but assume they're unreliable unless you know the methodology, the whole questions used, etc. Then, if they're clean, assume they're semi-reliable.) But they're nothing locking us into a 2-party system. It's the voting system, the whole voting system, and nothing but the voting system. :p

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I thought it was very clear? The options said I will/would, would implies "if I could"

As Bensons points out, this is not meant to show and prediction of election results. Its more of meant to show the minds of the people that hang out around here.

That there is only 10% at this point that voted down the conspiracy line is almost shocking from some of the crowd around here. I kind of thought that it would be higher :)

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

If you like going to the DMV, you'll love government run health care.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Pol
 

And that was a good thing, just as the ads with Dukakis in that tank were effective (and a good thing).

I wish the Libertarians weren't so extreme, some of their stuff is right.

I voted for Perot, big mistake in hindsight, it put Clinton in office. No more protest votes for me.

Don't be a Sarahphobe !

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

Today's Washington Post cites a poll that puts Obama up by 9 points among likely voters. This is the biggest spread I have seen by either side in any poll in this campaign.

In fact, I have coined a name for it:

The $700 Billion Bounce.

It's ironic that what is going on now is that the Republicans are in disarray and the Democrats are united. Many Republicans hate the $700 billion proposal made by the Bush administration, but others support it (for example, the Bush administration supports it, I think).

I offhandedly suggested that the Bush administration be nominated for a Nobel Prize for proposing Socialism for the US, but I was joking.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I already wait at my doctors for every appointment longer than at the DMV.

I also suppose if you do not have healthcare the DMV line would be welcome. Most people with insurance, dont use it unless they absolutely have to because they cannot afford it. Its health insurance not LIFE insurance.

Call it socialized medicine if you like. THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK. I'll take my chances on socialized medicine. Seems to make more sense than socialized stock market.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I'd put some thoughts in on relationships between socialised stockmarkets & medicine, but if I light in, we ain't dodging a flamewar nohow. You can probably guess where I stand, anyway. ;)

So I'll toss in just one thought: can any system work?

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I think that all the systems in the world deliver healthcare of one sort or another, so the answer is yes, ANY system works to a certain extent. The real question is, can our system work better.

I have a pragmatic point of view on this. I suspect it can work better, and I would like to see various fixes tried.

By the way, a big deal has been made about having a bureaucrat imposed between you and your doctor.

Do any of you NOT have bureaucrats imposed between you and your doctor already? My impression is that most people have one variety of HMO or another, and HMOs do have bureaucracy, does anyone disagree? Remember that big list of doctors you have to choose among? That is called bureaucracy. Before doctors can get on that list THEY have to agree to the rules of the bureaucracy.

So we are not so much talking about establishing a bureaucracy as improving it. Most of us don't make the rules about how we interact with our doctors, we abide by those someone else made up.

One more thing. People talk about the evils of government bureaucracy. I have had occasion to interact with Social Security bureaucracy lately. I found the bureaucracy nimble, fast, easy to get in contact with and reasonable. It was MUCH better than many private companies I have dealt with.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Pol
 

Lying and distorting details to win an election is a good thing???

...

No thanks. I guess I'll look for the more honest candidate and do the "bad" thing.

As for Palin, I don't fear anyone that wacky. She'll self-destruct, just like Dukakis did.

/me awaits customary misrepresentation of my ideology

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

"I choose not to run!" It reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld in the episode "The Race".

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I have to agree with you. The "bureaucracy" argument against universal healthcare is a wash. You'll get it in government, you'll get it in business. Considering that both evolve into hierarchal systems, it's an inevitable evil.

So I laugh off those arguments.

It's also true that ANY healthcare system can be made to work. I was treated for an emergency in socialist Finland and had no problem finding competent doctors and receiving excellent care on a business trip-- at a fraction of what it would have cost me here. That's actually support for your argument, geneven-- bureaucracies add cost, so the current US system sure looks less efficient than it could be.

I've received excellent care in the US... but then, I've been treated extremely poorly as well. I've found that maverick doctors are the best for me. These are the lone holdouts against the coziness between medicine and Big Pharma. My two main doctors (DO GP and urologist) both despise the status quo because it comes between them and their work. I love those guys for that.

The absolute best care I've received was, interestingly, in a Catholic-run hospital-- back before they all sold-out to for-profit enterprise. It's anecdotal, sure, but that impacts my opinion on the subject. I think a return to the nonprofit approach would be better than either of the 2 diverse proposals often discussed these days. But, as usual, it looks like common sense and patient interest never make it to the table...

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

Back to the topic.

2 news items today:

1. McCain suspends his campaign to ostensibly focus on the financial meltdown that Bush wants solved really quickly.

My analysis: pure grandstanding on McCain's part. How idiotic. His campaign pumps money back into a faltering economy. Suspending it sends the wrong signal. And Bush's eagerness to wrap the matter up before the warts are exposed is just more of the covert crap for which his administration is infamous. Vet the debacle thoroughly, and put safeguards in place TO KEEP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

2. Obama/Biden were found to have supported the idiotic "bridge to nowhere" that is also tripping up Sarah Palin.

My analysis: pure hypocrisy on their part, just like Obama's flimsy reasoning for voting for a war he doesn't agree with.

I'm tired of candidates' words not matching their actions. I'm tired of the top 2 parties getting elected despite (or because of) spin and malfeasance. I'm tired of dinosaurs like Ted Kennedy who won't step aside for new blood.

Vote for an alternative. Those guys are trying harder and have more integrity. Your vote is only really wasted if you keep supporting the same tired old insanity instead of using it for real change.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

I don't think we've seen a response to the charge that Obama/Biden supported the bridge to nowhere, so we don't know how accurate it is. Supporting the bridge was part of Palin's campaign, not just part of some vote. Recently the 'road to nowhere' that went to the bridge to nowhere was completed for tens of millions; local residents say they might use it for jogging or something.

It would be wrong, I suspect, to assume that members of Congress are always aware of everything they are voting for. It's not a matter of hypocracy but of complexity. People sneak in pet projects all the time.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

Voting rolls are public. It's accurate.

I have some choice words for anyone not at least marginally aware of the major components of a bill. This one was subject to much public debate, which is the one thing that killed it.

Obama and Biden knew. Just like Obama knew every time he cast a yes vote supporting the insane debacle in Iraq.

Sorry, they don't get a break on this one. Wrong is wrong.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

Despite your best effort, TR, the server is still up. I just read this thread and was surprised at

a) how civilized the discourse remained despite the obvious differences of opinion, and

b) despite being eager for an end to the desolation and despair that the 'neo-cons' have brought to the world, the consensus appears to be an absence of trust in the voting system, especially (two) parties.

As for a), I can say that I should not have doubted the ability of the members of this forum to discuss a volatile subject, especially given the rather rough evidence that those of us who care to vote in this little poll already heavily favor one party. In general however, notwithstanding a few (potentially legitimate:-) posts flaming TR, members of this forum generally adhere to good decorum on a daily basis.

As for b), I concur with the yellow-dog democrat in the group. Two parties ain't the best, but I ain't seen nothing better yet...right on dude.:p

Finally, I think everyone should vote. Red state or blue. Rain or shine. Even if you think it won't matter. If it doesn't matter, what's the harm? Vote anyway. It's both a privilege and a duty, and we don't get many of either anymore.

Re: US Presidential Candidate Poll
 

So the government can run something as complex as the military, but it can't be trusted with running an insurance program? ( btw, Medicare is already a whopping success when compared to most private insurance in terms of percentage of dollars spent on care ).

So we can socialize banking, but not health care?

I too wait far longer to see my doctor than I have ever waited for a DMV agent.

I live in Upstate NY and I oppose *any* bailout even though it will affect me personally.