Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

This is getting off the central topic, but those of us who HAVE managed to live within our means don't need that much credit. It's the businesses that are constantly borrowing money to get ahead quicker, the people with low-income jobs buying houses I'd like but cannot justify, the janitor with the new Lexus on a loan that's almost his entire salary that need the lines of credit.

I was raised to live within my means and am slightly jealous of all those that have been able to borrow far beyond theirs. I don't see why we have to bail out the overspenders like we did eighteen years ago with the RTC.

Let them come to my bank and borrow my money at my banks rates and rules.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Do not believe the hype my man. This whole thing has been a long time coming and started under the Clinton administration. The people on the inside knew full well where this was all going. This whole "we have no credit" stuff is a public hold up. Just you wait.

Credit card companies are already payday loan outfits. Have you seen what Interest they can charge now?

Did you catch what happened with bankruptcy laws?

Do you think these things were accidents?

SEC allowing "self regulation"

Bush signing rules that allowed "certain" banks to not report certain securities and debt to the SEC?

Job growth that occured mostly (as in upwards of 90%) in retail and service and jobs that lead directly to middle class status slowly offshored?

These are the same MOFO's that tell you that so called "Socialized medicine" is bad?

The same MOFO's that wanted to privatize social security because it would cost too much to fund NOW have 700 billion to throw around?

Ain't nobody peeing on me and telling me it's rain.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Thank you. Count me in as one of those who live within my means.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Just because this whole economic crisis was caused by deregulation and "free market" antics doesn't mean that it doesn't need fixing. How many people do you think are going to buy a car with cash? How about a truck? How about a CT scanner. This has nothing to do with living within your means.

Palin's chant about "Government get outa my way" is the exact problem. Palin and her ilk want lots of rules for everyone but themselves.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Age: Annual mortality Rate: Cumulative Mortality Rate: for a 72-year-old
72 3.30% 3.30%
73 3.61% 6.79%
74 3.95% 10.47%
75 4.34% 14.36%
76 4.78% 18.45%
77 5.25% 22.73%
78 5.74% 27.16%
79 6.28% 31.74%

The typical man of Senator McCain's age faces a one in seven chance of dying before finishing his first term, and a 30 percent chance of not finishing out a second one.

You could argue both sides of, well he is rich so he has an above average chance, or he has spent some hard time in his life.

Regardless of which side you are on, you have to admit the presidency adds 20 years to any president. I can't imagine how old he would look could he actually survive two terms.

McCain and Palin may have energized their base but they are not bringing on anyone else. I think even his base is scared of a possible Palin presidency. God knows it scares the s h i t out of me...


As for the debate, Biden clearly was the winner

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Checks and balances are critical. Gridlock and political antagonism are actually good things, contrary to popular opinion. They force TRUE negotiation rather than cloakroom collusion.

Impeachment is not a "bs gesture", and such a blithe, dismissive comment bespeaks an ignorance of the process. Impeachment is yet another crucial tool of checks and balances, and a necessary one. Its rare use is a testament to its effectiveness, ironically. Hopefully I don't have to explain why...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

[QUOTE=Texrat;230302]
Tell you what, let the Dem's have both for 6 years so we can get back to even. Then you can put the checks and balances back. For now, I for one am ready for 6 years of running the other direction, as fast as freaking possible!

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Sondjata (and gemniii42) was correct. A great part of our current financial crisis WAS the result of both businesses and citizens living beyond their means, banking that the good times would roll forever and that each individual involved would be smart enough to get out while the getting was good.

I think we see now how wrong that thinking was.

And now not only are those like me who lived within their means screwed by the collapse (I won't be refinancing my house for a while), we get screwed again by bailing out those who didn't.

Sorry, that's bs of the worst order, and it pisses me off. Too bad I seem to be in the minority...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

If the belief that main street needed a bailout due to a credit crunch then why not have the govt. take over WAMU and Wachovia and turn them into "the peoples banks" and extend proper credit through them until the "crisis" is over. Put the money right in front of the people who supposedly need it and not in front of the people that committed fraud.

That's just one idea.

Up the FDIC insurance for the people.

Give tax breaks to those who's employers required contributions to 401K and 403B's so that they can recoup some of their inevitable losses.

There were all manner of means to deal with this "crisis" without buying the fraudulently gotten "assets" of speculators.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I agree with you about the causes of this fiasco. I couldn't believe what was going on in the States. No Income No Asset loans? What were they thinking??
I really don't think doing nothing is the right tactic, though maybe a full scale depression would teach everyone a good lesson.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Since 1975 I have personally bought (for our family of 5 drivers) 4 new cars, 3 new vans (don't like trucks) and 3 used cars and all but the last car was paid for with CASH. I still have 1988 van, 1993 van, 1996 car, 1998 car, 2004 car, 2006 car. The last car the credit union loaned me money at 3% while I deposited the equivalent at 3.5%, thus I was actually making money. They all have been or will be driven basically into the ground, as long as they can be maintained.
Have not tried to buy a CT scanner, but an older used one only costs about $20K.
http://www.dotmed.com/listing/563828..._campaign=Base
/edit - but it probably won't interface with my N810

But for $20k I rather buy another 50 acres of farmland.

I'm trying to get a full square mile.

A good fix would be for every one to learn the freakin' lesson of living within their means. Instead of this no-risk, no penalty capitalism.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Well, in fact it wasn't; it's a complex situation, but simplifying the causes to that explanation is about as wrong as it can get. The main explanations are government regulation (demanding banks issue more high-risk loans to "help" the communities), and banker folly/greed (issuing too many high-risk loans without heed to consequences, or (cynically, but probably true) expecting to be bailed out. To sum it up briefly, I'd simply say we wound up with a hybrid system of privatized gains and socialized losses, which makes people take more risks than is prudent and poleaxes economic efficiency. (And helps generate artificial crises that help the government justify excessive authority, in case you're wondering why there was no effort to stop it.)

Hmm... A lot of people for the car, actually; you don't see us driving brand-new Mercedes-Benzes so much (although maybe the people who afford them can pay cash!), but in cars we can afford. It's called living within our means, and has very much to do with itself.

As for trucks and CT scanners, for business purposes, that's not where this problem started, and AFAICT it's not substantial in that area. Generally, especially for established businesses, getting loans or leases for capital equipment is not hard, because you're making money with the equipment, which greatly increases the odds you can pay it back, so they will be / are one of the last regions to get bit.

People like her are a problem; the chant is not a problem. Economically, government activity always impairs efficiency, so we should have only enough government to stop worse economic inefficiencies. Pretty much, that means real crimes (you know, the ones with victims forcibly deprived of their property rights). Most of the things the government does these days are clearly economically harmful. While it's complicated to transition from the government we have to a more efficient level of government without inducing harmful transient responses, that's no excuse for not trying, and even less for paying lip-service to the idea and still not trying.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

"It's not Wall street that's getting bailed out. It's Main street."

I agree with the wonderful NY Times columnist Gail Collins, who said (paraphrase)

'What about the other streets? What about Elm Street? What about Broadway?'

As far as whether Impeachment is BS, I would have been willing to bet $10,000 that Clinton would not be convicted. I bet no one here would have taken my bet, because it was obvious. When a DA is sure there isn't going to be a conviction, does the DA take the case to court? No, because the DA is charged with saving the taxpayers' money as well as enforcing the law.

That's right, even if the DA is 100% certain a person is a murderer, the DA will normally not take a case to court if he is certain the person being charged will win the case.

Credit is a terrible thing. When I think of all those pioneers who came West in search of free land, it makes my blood boil. And remember the Gold Rush, when huge numbers of "prospectors" were trying to get free riches. Americans have always been a bunch of freeloaders. (Wait, maybe the story is more complex than that! Maybe there is a reason for credit and borrowing money.)

By the way, every time McCain says the crisis was caused by "greed", I wonder if when he gets in office he is going to repeal Original Sin. If he read his Bible more closely, he'd realize that human beings are sinful, and governments try to set up systems that work around that problem. Announcing in a shocked voice that people are greedy may have surprised people 10,000 years or so ago.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Personally, I couldn't possibly compare presidential impeachment to any other case. Different scope entirely.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Politicians are students of Political Science....

...which is the science of deception.

go figure...
Omega

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Yes and no. Interface should NOT be that complicate. You do need USB external HD for data collection though.

bun

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

What exactly is the will of the people? Last I checked, it was whatever the last 30-second ad they saw told them to think. How is this good?

I know it's not fair, but if you can't devote an hour or two to becoming an informed voter and showing that you have some critical thinking skills, why bother claiming that that "will" is anything more than what someone much more powerful is telling them to think? Blame the corporations or blame the people, either way it's the same result. No way we'll ever get around it as long as it's ok to be uninformed.

I actually think Obama's not bad, and I used to think McCain wasn't bad either until he selected Palin. Maybe it's just the last 8 years... I would be happy with either if I knew that it was informed voters who decided the election, and that would have the added benefit that the gutter crap politics everyone complains about wouldn't be so effective. Well, good thing we have our free market political style, and we know that it's the right choice because it's made by The People. Right?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Credit is fine - but What I object to are people (and institutions comprised of people) that gamble knowingly and are not willing to take the consequences when they lose.

It's like going to Vegas, losing a million dollars and asking for it back. Should we start a program to bailout all baccarat losers?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I dont know about you, I am pretty sure Vegas would NOT permit bunanson to lose a million $ there...

bun

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

If Beiden is top of the ticket, I would vote Democratc. Obama can do some good work as VP, and be president next time around. He can certainly talk, but I want to see a few more years worth of records. Then we can see if he is presidental material or not. Has the media seriously looked into his state records?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I'm still thinkin' Guns and Religion will pull us through. :)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Before you vote McCain, you better think. He has a 1 in 7 chance not surviving hist first term. If he were to have a second term, it would be about 1 in 3.3 chance of not surviving

Are you ready for President Palin?

God help us all!

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Isn't his mother... ehm... 96? It appears that heredity may be on his side...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

The will of the people is generally the same now as it was a hundred years ago. We want to be treated fairly, we want our leaders (and neighbors) to follow the law, and we want an opportunity to become better (and wealthier, and more powerful).

You clearly meant the will of a person.

A statistic on the topic of "uninformed voters" would be lovely, unless that's just your little thought...

And just look at this latest insane bill to go up to Congress. The bailout? The Senate and the president want you to think it's good, and to just shut up and go with it. But, the majority of America doesn't like it at all, even though these very powerful people want them to.

And, well, even if your right about voters being uninformed, that's why we have an electoral college anyway. The people really don't get to choose. (Thank those old Virginia aristos for that.)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I don't know if his Mom has had skin cancer, but probably not; and she certainly didn't suffer 4 years of torture. I've never heard anybody say it does a body good. Not to mention, ANYBODY could die in the next four years. (An athletic, robust husband of a friend of mine, for example, died at age 36 of a brain tumor. We all know of cases like that.)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Did you see her at RNC, she looked completely confused about where she was. I am not sure that's helping your case.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I have no idea about the validity, but this letter is certainly getting some attention:

My Holiday with John McCain

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

To all you guys who think you are doing us common folks a favor by touting analysis, calculation, voting with country, future, blah blah blah in mind: save your breath! You are overestimating yourselves. Think about it: there is nothing wrong for, let's say, a 70 year old with no education who just wants someone he can trust to look after his interest. And guess what: his one vote counts as much as yours, even if you have a Ph.D. Everybody gets to vote any way he likes. Both sides have Ph.D.s, lawyers, doctors, experts, etc. Do'nt tell me your side is better than mine. The way I see it, there is not much difference between politics and spectator sport.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

My side is better than yours !!! :p

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Who just farted?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

He who smelt it, dealt it!

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I take this as a break for you to get away from software development. Fine. Just don't take politics (and yourself) too seriously. If everybody makes contributions as best as he can to his own field, and only pay attention to politics proportionally, everything will be alright.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Well I am not a developer, I am a hack, technology hack, political hack. Insert adjective here hack.

I will go back to my mundane existence once Obama wins. I am not a avid Obama supporter. I have been known to refer to Obama supporters as sheep. Obahhhhhma!

However, if my choices are McCain and Obama, I choose Obama.

If my choice is helping millions of families get access to healthcare, or making healthcare worse.

I choose helping families

If my choices are putting a timetable on extracting ourselves from Iraq or staying there until we "win" whatever the hell win means?

I choose ending the war.

If my choices are common sense or stubbornness, I'll choose common sense.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

"Before you vote McCain, you better think. He has a 1 in 7 chance not surviving hist first term. If he were to have a second term, it would be about 1 in 3.3 chance of not surviving "

One in seven way understimates the chances of Palin getting control. During 9/11, Cheney was running the government for a time, and it wasn't because Bush was dead. I don't like Cheney, but he is a lot better than Palin. So death is not the only thing that would put the VP in power. Illness could too, or anything that keeps the President away from the levers of power at a critical time, and all times are critical these days.

I have always like McCain, but it's my impression that he is getting less likable and less trustworthy as time goes on, whereas Obama seems to be getting cooler and smarter. Maybe it's the way McCain reacts to the kind of pressure he's under. Just because you react ok when being tortured doesn't mean you do well under political pressure -- it's a completely different thing.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

No kidding. Use the $700,000,000,000.00 to provide the needed credit to credit-worthy people/businesses rather that using the $700,000,000,000.00 to buy bad loans. The former goes directly toward solving the problem, while the latter basically gives those who made terrible loans a do-over on the backs of the taxpayers.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Mr. Penguin, as I said earlier, you are entitled to your one vote. You can cast your vote under any pretense, any one of those "I choose... " deductions of yours. Nobody can question you and nobody cares. Just don't kid yourself into believing that your way of thinking is always right, and someone else's is always wrong.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I am not always right, nor did I say I was? George Bush thinks he is always right and look where that has gotten us. Well no matter how you vote it will not be a deduction of mine. I live in Michigan, a blue state. So no matter how may red voters there are, they don't count here. :)

I would love to see it changed to be every vote is counted, dump the electoral college.

So, your vote will not count against mine in this election. You may not like my beliefs, opinions or thoughts, but that won't stop me from expressing them.


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

However if one has the right connections only or two votes decide the outcome. Witness the Supreme Court election of George Bush in 2000.


Unfortunately the voters in this country are to easily swayed and in some cases dissuaded from voting (Ohio 2004).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Un..._controversies


Any politician can and usually will say anything to get elected. The distribution of knowledgeable voters is heavily skewed and the rest are easily swayed by falsehoods (WMD, Global Warming doesn't exist, the economy is sound) which they believe until far after the election.

Many of my coworkers are STRONG republicans and continually argued with me on those matters (WMD, Global Warming doesn't exist, the economy is sound) and are just now starting to question those premises. They made fun of me buying small hybrid cars, choosing to live within a mile of work and taking my investments out of stocks. They lost their shirt on their SUV's, their pants on their stocks, and now can barely afford to commute.

Friday they were trying to justify things such as why it doesn't really matter if the future VP knows who the General is who commands Afghanistan, or if the future VP knows what the VP does.

I sincerely hope they do not have to worry about that on November 5th.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Exactly^

If, during a future 9/11 type event the President is in the air and can not land because the risk had not yet been assessed and the VPOTUS has to call the first response shots; does anyone here really feel comfortable with a Joe Sixpack or a Hockey mom chairing the Joint Chiefs?

I know I don't...

I don't want someone "just like me" running my country. I want someone better. Just like I would want someone better educated than me performing surgery, designing and building the home I live in, or even cleaning my freakin' teeth.

No first term POTUS has prior presidential experience. I would only vote for one who at the very least knows enough to get the education that's needed before they attempted to do the job.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

May I repeat gain: do whatever you want! Frankly speaking, I skipped the two long-winding comments above. I am not a fanatic in politics, and also have other hobbies beside work, so no need to waste time on reading political comments. If this is your favorite passtime: good for you. Simply put, I may not be able to argue with you (since I don't follow politics religously), there is always somebody equally fanatic on your opposite side who can shout you down. That's why I said that this is all spectator sport to me. Don't overestimate yourself into thinking that you are right and the other half of the population is wrong.