Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Look M5, evidently I don't like Apple either, but some of their features are interesting, and it is in wise to look at a (growing) competitor. If Jerome saw more potention in the iPhone he wouldn't make his point here; it'd be a waste of his time.

Apple is, as far a I'm concerned, one of the market leaders when it comes to usability. They also have some clever solutions (e.g. Skyhook Wireless instead of real GPS was a clever hack). The GNOME and GNUStep teams are inspired by Apple, and Maemo is partly by GNOME.

People who are into marketing related subjects would like to disagree with you that he was a genius (not that you don't honor him as genius; who you honor is up to you). I've seen a documentary about him. He was, before CoS, widely regarded as a good hypnotist. He made thousands of people believe in his fairy tales, not in the way of George Lucas or J.K. Rowling; no, he actually made them subscribe to his bullocks. He was also friends with some people in the higher echelons of USA before he started CoS. He'd probably have been a great asset for the MKULTRA project. Likewise, you might be able to admire a German WWII officer like general Rommel or admiral Dönitz for [some] of their qualities while disagreeing with the ideology they were fighting for.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Okay.... you make great points, plus I have had my morning coffee now and am much calmer.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

A close friend of mine just sent me an email saying he purchased a Google G1 yesterday. I am going to go over and take a look at it right now.

Have a nice day All.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

There are some nice things about Apple products, but they come at a high price (and I'm not talking about €/$). But still: most of what's hyped as "superior usability" is just superior cosmetics and most of the time much worse usability than any other comparable system... People just don't realize because it looks so nice. (Do you still need to go to the lower right corner of a window to change its size in OSX or did they fix this meanwhile?)

The good thing from my point of view is total integration. Total desktop integration and total integration across devices using iTunes. This is really sexy. I have to admit I love the idea.

But: It only works because they force end users and developers into certain constraints. You could have the same amount of desktop integration for, say, contact data if somebody would force all GNU/Linux developers to only use the evolution data server and, maybe, telepathy on top. Would be convenient. But we'd loose all the freedom and flexibility.
Same with sync services: There are many services out there that each do a part of what iTune does. Maybe if you're clever you find a combination that does most of what iTunes can do, and still you'd miss a lot of features. So would be want iTunes? No. I wouldn't want to be forced to use one way of data exchange. I want choice. I want to be able to use separate services for business data and private data. I want to do it my way.

So, as sexy as all this Apple-style integration is, I wouldn't want it as long as it takes away my freedom of choice. So what we could do is get close... at least offer frameworks developers can use, offer an application store they can upload their projects to. But this is already happening. There is a consistent framework for contact data on Maemo - only developers don't use it (or does Gizmo access the EDS? No!). There is the "Extras" repository - and while the situation has much improved since my last rant, still there are packages that are not in it. So, that's life. Freedom of choice also means freedom of choice for those who don't want to make their own product more sexy. I'll gladly live with this as long as the alternative is an Apple-style closed universe.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

whats needed is some kind of generic data exchange system, so that software can talk to each other independent of what they use internally.

so that if you want to, you can pop out the existing contacts app, insert a new one and still have all the others that expect a contacts app to be there to find the data they want.

iirc, google was aiming for a system like that in android, so that third party programs could replace existing systems in android without any lack of bindings.

dont know if it got into the final version tho, at least outside of a a vendor/operator only lock...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

@ Benny

Not only integration in that sense. The interface is coherent. Its object oriented, so e.g. interfaces and shortcuts are coherent. If I ask you what F5 and F7 did in DOS applications I know what your answer will be. Sure, Windows and open source DE have this too, but Apple takes this one step further. There are some nice NextStep/OpenStep/GNUStep demos which demonstrate this.

Something else the iPhone does right is allowing full screen focus to the user. Wayfinder/Navicore, Carman, OMWeather, Fennec and some other applications do this as well; but definetely not all.

An abstraction API for Google, Facebook, etcetera which can be used by an application such as Pidgin plugin as well as Bitlbee, a blogger program, or a Firefox/MicroB/Fennec extension is a Good Thing.

If you want sexy and good performance you can learn from Enlightenment DR17. If you'd study that community you'd notice how they care about optimizing and how these people are artists (besides being programmer), and have a hard time releasing a stable :p

XFce wasn't mentioned, but they go more for performance than GNOME. Yet, you can see the 'Mac' influence in both.

(Please note there are also influences by e.g. AmigaOS, BeOS, NextStep; its just that Apple has survived whereas these OSes either vanished or got cloned or integrated into new products.)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

tso: this would only shift the problem to another level. now, as a developer, you should use the EDS backend. - when they move away from EDS to some more generic data exchange system, what would you gain? you could choose not to use EDS but some other system that understands the same data format and calls defined in a generic data format. but you'd still have to adhere to those standards to achieve the integration.

so whatever you do, its always some kind of constraints. you can't just do as you like and still have a fully integrated desktop.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I don't understand.... what do you mean by "allowing full screen focus to the user"?

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

So long as you are on the same type of network nothing untoward happens. I have a Chinese iPhone knock off that works on the ATT network. I have another Chinese phone with better features that also works on the ATT network. I can put in a T-mobile sim and go to town with that too.

The real problem is finding a no-name phone that supports the 850Mhz band which is crucial for indoor reception.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

neo freerunner?

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Thanks for watering down the flames here in this iPhone comparison again.

But again as a topic of the future of Internet tablets - I think the iPhone and the future NIT should not be that far apart in trems of basic functionality.
I want a tablet with Maemo (or QT) which does all it does today, better graphics rendering, better audio/video codecs handling for Multimedia, better GUI management (finger support etc), ease of development as a platform, a interchangeable SIM for data support (HSPA) and a phone to make a call as well (I am getting a bit tired of the IT/Phone combo to carry always).

That does not sound too far apart from the iPhone - of course it sounds better. :) And thats what I want.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I think he means when applications run in full screen as against running in the reduced screen mode with the side menus and bottom bars still showing.

Example is Canola (and the others allnames pointed out). Canola when it starts is a full screened app (full screen focus) and stays that way.
On the otherhand MicroB is not a full screened app when it starts. You can make it full screen by pressing the full screen button.
Now a full screen app by design should not need to be minimised to access any function from the side bar menus at all. They should be self contained in its functionality totally.

(ex : MicroB needs to be minimised to access the close button from the top bar, else its not closable (or quitable) in full screen. Canola - which is full screen is closable from full screen mode).


I don't dislike the minimised apps - since after all I can make it full screen by a click of a button - but I do like Canola (and Fennec) interface enough to like the full screen by design choice.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

not entirely correct, hold the cancel/esc/return button for a couple of seconds, or bring down the menu with the menu button and select close->close (all) window(s).

also, the home menu allows one to close a window.

the problem with full screen apps, imo, is that they quickly become "swiss army knifes" or mini-os's, as people want to do more without having to leave their ui.

heh, as one start to think about it, a canola plugin and a hildonized app i fairly short. both integrate into the ui of their "parent".

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Oh my god... So he doesn't like being able to seamlessly switch between applications and access brightness settings while browsing? Not even die-hard iPhone users like this aspect of Apple's UI.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

No; the assumption is that the user runs one application, and runs this application well. The user is allowed to run an other application, but it is assumed the user prefers focus on the current application. When one is writing a thesis one does not want on the left a radio speaker, on the right some hottie dancing, and on the back kids yelling with 1 kid putting hands before one's eyes. One wants rest, focus, and use the screen one paid for.

If you use Wayfinder/Navicore this is usually the case as well. If you browse with Fennec, too. Coincidentally, there are either I/O applications (video, audio, Carman, Navigation) or heavy touch-based (Fennec, Canola, ...) with touch buttons, gestures and/or sometimes keyboard shortcuts.

Now, if you take MicroB or Modest. With those applications it isn't feasable to use them full screen because the functionality withers. MicroB does not support tabs, and the settings or favourites aren't easily accessible.

BTW, we'd also need some standardization on gestures.

Why I would want to access brightness settings while using an application is beyond my understanding. Its definetely not something I'll be doing daily. Besides, brightness settings should be static, like a good pair of glasses does with sunlight.

Addendum: Keep in mind this topic is about the future of internet tablets. Therefore, you must keep in mind options which have the potential to attract new users while not alienating the current userbase. The touch paradigm is attractive because most people use the visual part of the brain; and therefore icons make more sense than text. (Something one can learn from iPhone.) Seems like someone, besides Google, is adopting some design principles: Purple Labs: $100 Linux 3G phone. Note the colours of the icons, their simplicity, and uniformity. This makes a user feeling comfortable.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

the setting used on my N800 for daylight readability will turn me blind when doing bedtime reading ;)

yes, i know the N810 fixes that with its "fancy" light sensor, but i much prefer the ability to have two full sized SD cards in there, thank you very much :p

and i have found myself surfing while having a media app running in the background for things like streaming music ;)

or maybe im, browser, rss at the same time...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

FWIW- I carry a very small cellphone (almost don't know it is in my pocket) and the Nokia N800. I am fortunate because where I am there is an abundance of WiFi clouds. Most everywhere I go I can access the Internet with the N800. I take advantage of this and use free VOIP for calls regardless of where I am. The cell phone is only for those times I MUST perform a call and I am caught between WiFi clouds...and this is very infrequent. I don't need, nor do I want my Nokia NiT to be a phone. I know this isn't a popular view with some folks here but that is how I feel.

If the future of Internet Tablets is one which includes cellular (or is influenced by things "Apple"), I won't be buying one. Certain people here need to cease worshiping the Apple iPhone as something Nokia must move toward. The iPhone is not something to be seen as a standard. Anyone who has been around portable devices for more than two years knows Apple didn't create a revolutionary device, in the iPhone. My Dell Axim did almost everything the IPhone does, and I had my Axims 7 years ago. Before that I had the Casio PPC. Yeah, Microsoft's OS on those was sucky, but my point is the iPhone isn't the breakthrough ignorant people believe it to be.

If the future of the IT is an iPhone then you have ruined what could have been a great thing. The Nokia/Maemo platform will be over as we current know it. I know select others here don't see it that way...but I do. Stop worshiping the iPhone, will you? It isn't justified.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Again, nobody is suggesting a clone, and nobody is arguing Apple is some kind of magic inventor who we need to follow. All what is said is that we can learn from competitors, with examples. For example, I mentioned how I liked that the iPhone v1, while not having a GPS, was actually quite usable for navigation using Skyhook Wireless + WiFi (quite frankly it beated the **** out of my N810 with internal GPS and I wasn't happy with that). I named examples of the iPhone (or Mac) paradigm I like, and suggest to consider. Some of which are already being added in Fremantle, BTW. What examples, besides cellphone, you don't like about iPhone? Do you realize HS*PA would be data only; not for phone calls? Also, a slick interface doesn't mean you won't have power with e.g. console; in MacOS X you can configure the OS using the command line. Why wouldn't this be possible in Linux like Ubuntu or Maemo? Are you aware of projects which try to uniform things like /etc configuration files? Freedesktop.org projects? Also abstraction, and its a Good Thing indeed.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

We think alike and have similar modes of operation with a small cell phone in my pocket. It can be very destructive to productivity to let the cell phone and email direct our daily lives and processes. In addition, I don't want to give that much control to any service provider. I prefer to manage my own time and select those that I chose to communicate or do business with. Cell providers, including iPhone and many ISP work hard at controlling us for their profit with our benefit taking a back seat.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

this assumption is wrong. right now i happen to run the rss-reader, the email-client, 2 browser windows and 1 IRC chat window.

i have them open because the workflow led me from IRC (watching channel, not participating) to RSS (see whats new while chat is boring) to microB (open link from RSS) to modest (incoming mail while browsing) to another browser window (get URI of a video i want to include in my response mail). this is quite common while i'm on the couch with my N800.

again, i don't understand. neither microb nor modest are harder to use in fullscreen mode. why wouldn't settings or favourites be accessible? if i run an application in full screen mode, i never had any loss of functionality. (although i have to admit i very rarely switch to full screen, only sometimes with microb.)


gestures?

i change brightness settings quite often. keep it low for surfing, high for videos and image viewing... even more often i change volume settings, sometimes only because i feel keyboard clicks mights be too loud for the person next to me. it would be very annoying if i'd have to quit or minimize a running application to do this. (or change my presence settings while typing or whatever)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

If such an assumption is true, why Stevie is not running only one application on his desktops and laptops too? What is the reason for your application to be killed whenever you receive a call? And does everyone wants to sacrifice background applications to have only one application running good on a processor gathering dust? :D

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

• no multitasking (ok, not correct technically, but from a user's point of view)
• UI is finger-only, which means overly simplified (not even copy/paste!)
• UI doesn't scale well (like nested menus do), which again forces applications to be disturbingly reduced in functionality

i find it surprisingly useless. most of what i do in my daily routine i cannot do on the iphone in a practical way.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

So, IRC is only input. RSS is only input. Browser is interactive. In that case, it makes sense the browser is full screen. But the interaction between RSS and browser is minor. So these can run full screen as well, or transparent in a sortof gadget mode (difficult).

If you compare the way how settings are changed between MicroB and Fennec, or the way a bookmark is accessed compared between the 2, how can you not understand most people will prefer the Fennec way once they're used to it? Because they think visual, in pictures? Maybe because programmers and geeks are bad designers!

I use the term gestures instead of mouse gestures because not necessarily a mouse is used.

If I want to not harass other people with my sound, I simply put it off. My brightness I would rather not touch back and forth because I have better things to do than that.

You misunderstood.

(And, actually, some computers do what you describe, both GNOME and KDE support this; kiosk mode; often used on thin clients.)

Various applications always run on the computer. Some might run in the UI. I'm not arguing only one application is allowed at a time. I'm arguing a user, in general, wishes to focus on one application instead of seeing multiple.

IOW, a kiosk mode which does allow (several) background tasks [multitasking] and does allow non-full screen [desktop environment] but not by default. It is assumed the user has full focus on the application. This way, the application can take more advantage of touch screen, finger-based and there is more space more e.g. virtual keyboard besides the actual application.

Speaking of the virtual keyboard. Have you tried the Python + QEdje virtual keyboard? The focussed key pops up, and its not selected until the user leaves the finger off the touchscreen. This is also a good, usability related feature. The designer can assume the user approaches the key the user wishes to tap, but not necessarily accurately. Hence, this is a good solution for this problem. Here is another demo, showing QEdje + QZion (by INdT developer). This shows even more the powerful possibilities of QEdje. And don't forget... Edje is fast!

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Nah, i didn't :) There are many apps running in the iPhone too, but the you're not allowed to utilize more than one user-made. You have no daemonized IM client, you can't have a simple copy and paste replacement (doing Apple's work). And every user at some point needs to use more than one application at a time.

I'm not arguing that you can't accept and live with the limitation. But it is still a limitation. At least they dropped the stupid NDA lately.

And don't forget - Python is slow :) Doesn't matter how fast the Edje is, you're still using it from an interpreted language. Simple things will be fast. Big applications will be slow (if you're relying only on Python that is).

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Only IRC and mail are "input", I don't add text to the feed reader. Anyway, this isn't relevant at all because the point is that I need to switch back and forth beetween applications quickly and easily. The Maemo side bar does a great job here. Kiosk-mode applications like Canola don't.

Bookmarks: Whats the deal? You click on a symbol, get a list and choose one entry. Same principle in both Fennec and MicroB. Except that in Fennec I guess I can't group bookmarks in folders, can't rename them, delete them... not so good. (And, as I think of it: The bookmarks-symbol can be made always visible in MicroB, but not in Fennec.)
Settings: Clear menus in MicoB, somewhat ambiguous symbols in Fennec. Still, you always tap on a hotspot to activate the menu and - oh, no, wait a minute! In Fennec, you need to scroll past the edge of the page first. Very intuitive.

Over-all, I think MicroB's UI is superior to Fennec because it gets you where you want quickly and by using well-established patterns people are used to. Fennec might look sexy, but: Try to go back more than one page. Scroll right beyond page, hit "back", scroll right beyond page again, hit "back", scroll right beyond page yet again, hit "back", .... What the heck is all this scrolling around good for? (Except getting you used to the fact that all the controls are out there beyond the internet, which is not intuitive!) - In MicroB, you see the "back"-button, you hit it three times and that's it. Good user interface. Clean and simple.

That's what I access the volume control for! And then I put it back on when the people are gone.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

the only issue i have with microb bookmarks is the way one scrolls the menu...

but then its a issue with the finger-friendly menus in general.

i suggested (bug reported) a page-style "scroll" to help with the lengthy wait, but i dont think anything will come of it...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

you're talking about the bookmarks you get when you press the browser icon from the home screen, right? i never use them for this very reason. i only use the small ones that come up when you press the icon to the left of the URL-bar. there's no scrolling involved because of the font-size. i organize them in folders so they don't take more space than available.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

you dont have the number of bookmarks that i have on that menu then ;)

still, i use a subset of them on regular basis, so after i found that javascript homepage someone made that shows my last used bookmarks, i only tuch the microb bookmark menu to reach the homepage ;)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

heeeyyy.... how many inches is yours? :D

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

about a full screen height, with scroll arrows ;)

i cant be bothered enough to attempt to sort them all into folders...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

oooh, that's cheating.

i only have folders on the first level.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

On my desktop I use bookmarks like my blog
Barring the top 10 or so items I rarely go back into them unless I recall something.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

With a little basic HTML you can create a page with multiple columns of links/bookmarks. Granted adding more bookmarks isn't as strait forward as what the small world icon to the right of the address bar does but you don't have the formating freedom HTML will give you.

FYI: you can also create bookmarks for files in your N8x0 that will give you visibility not available with the File Manger or Open functions of your applications. "file:///home/user" will show you the "native" Linux file names and let you see the hidden configuration files not available to the GUI.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

fragos,
thanks for that little nugget :) i've made a note

its read only access, but simpler than explaining commands to a user, if a configuration or log file is wanted I can simply give them the address to open and copy directly from there :)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

A fear and a hope:

A fear: I was flown to Toronto for training by Commodore as part of a big push to get store owners trained on selling the Amiga. They were really ramping up all things Amiga, and pulling in enthusiastic community members to play a larger role... Shortly thereafter (a year or two), the Amiga disappeared, as did Commodore. :( I hope Maemo doesn't do this, a year or two after the big Summit in Berlin.

A hope: I see Symbian slowly slipping into the background, and the standards-compliant Maemo stepping up and taking its place as the mobile OS for all Nokia's devices; it is very scalable and robust, and built entirely on open APIs and technologies... Perfect for dropping onto all sorts of devices.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Nowhere did I say the future of the IT is an iPhone.
I only said the iPhone and the IT are comparable in some ways (in response to the parent post about it being as different as water and fire) if you include the Phone in the IT (and I am only comparing the functions, not features in hardware or software).

For that matter the IT with a phone will be comparable to the iPhone or the Axim, or the G1, or the Samsung or any other PDA/computing device with a phone on it too.

So I think you are baised in your vehemence in refusing to see similarities in function and denouncing iPhone so religiously when even the Dell Axim or the O2 are similar in function to the iPhone - the only difference being each device is geared to a particular function more than the other (and this is true for any electronic device).

For me personally since I don't have access to wifi everywhere and I rely on the data connection on my phone, I would prefer the IT to be my phone too. That does not mean it has to copy the iPhone. It copies any device with a phone on it - and there are countless such devices. To each his choice. And no, nobody is saying the iPhone is the gold standard, so don't put your own prejudices (against the iPhone) into a topic where functions are being compared and not the devices themselves (or the religion for that matter).

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

The simpler the UI the less control the user has. In some instances that's not a user issue because the device meets their needs and expectation. IMHO, a computer that can do phone is a more useful device than a phone that also does some computer. I prefer the Nokia but for my taste I see some artificial limitations that have been built in by narrowing the function to Internet tablet. Not that Internet tablet is bad, just that other root PIM capabilities are needed for any device to be a constant companion. For me, open source is also important because marketing oriented artificial limitations can still be overcome. Mcalendar and gToDo overcame some of those issues for me but I'm still a bit disappointed that the contacts ignores physical location and flexible free form notes so the contacts can do the most basic of CRM.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Since the Nokia tube came out - Nokia's first touchscreen phone, this is what I have been thinking too - only if Nokia makes Maemo as the default OS on them instead of S60 - then that would be the N900 maybe (though I would like to have the hardware keyboard too of course).

And I do hope that the N series of tube devices will someday have Maemo on it and that will be the future IT/phone device.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Atari was way better anyway. :p
A-ta-ri! A-ta-ri! A-ta-ri! A-ta-ri! :D

(They died even before Commodore, didn't they? Oh well... good old times.)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I saw it from a different layer (communication layer between device and Internet). But yes.

Why do you need to do this? Are you hyperactive? Do you think normal people like to do this every 2.603 seconds? I can tell you: they don't. They write one e-mail, and are dedicated to finish it. They, in general, don't want distractions such as "oh, my daughter just send me an IM" or "perhaps Joe is on IRC". Or at least want to keep the temptation to the minimum.

Why, do you think, GNOME does not by default show the CPU and memory resources in a panel or desklet? Why, do you think, Windows allows one to hide the taskbar when there is no focus on it?

The deal is this: you're one of the many here not using the right side of the brain well enough. However, most people do. If you want to make these people feel comfortable on the NIT you have to give them a UI which works for them. Incidentally, this is also why Apple is popular in artistic circles. I bet a scientific study would prove iPhone users very much use their right side of the brain.

For example, I never remember street names. I know how to get somewhere by driving and recognizing the environment. Hardly by counting, names. Ofcourse, cities have names, but thats about as far as it goes. When you name a city, I have a picture in my mind, and a feeling about it. This is also why I'm glad I have a GPS system in which I can add favourites!

So, instead of links which contain a name, you want a picture (or maybe both to satisfy the left side of brain people). That is how most people remember a website. An example of this principle is Opera's Speeddial. It makes sense too. People have a limited amount of websites they visit regularly. The other links are archives or irregular visits. The latter, people probably want to have synced with their desktop/laptop.

The visual solution would be to allow users to group bookmarks based on icons which represent their categories. Because the icons aren't available on the NIT they'd have to be downloaded. SVG artwork would be best for this. If people would prefer a smiley with glasses to represent the 'geek' category then it could grab this icon from the Internet and allow the user to categorize this way.

In the end, you'd get a Finnish NextStep :D you'll enter a learning curve like there is in Chinese and Japanese but once you understand it, its very logical. Finnish is also like this (very modular), but text-based instead of symbol-based; that is to say the number of symbols is rather limited to a limited number of characters, or combination is characters.

Usually people go back 1 page only.

Bug or design flaw. Left -> Right does it.

These paradigms are changing. During a change, there is a learning curve, and mistakes will be made (look at the Enlightenment 17 development).

If you believe that is what this is about please disregard my messages because then our correspondence is utterly useless.

Yes, perfect example. Exactly what I mean. I'm lazy. I don't want to pitch down the volume to some level where others don't hear it. I either have it on or off. The magic keyword here is profiles.

(Don't worry, Maemo 5 will have new interface and if I understood correct also profiles like these :D)