Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I have the same 2 customers at all times: Barbie and Urkel. They're equally important, so please stop hating.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I can't code. I could learn it, but I'm lazy and prefer to just pay... Pay the company that gives me what I want. (Or, to be more precise: That offers the best compromise.) Boring consumer attitude, I know. ;)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

fat fingers? i just hit the power button, down ones on the dpad, then center dpad (offline mode). then its power button and center dpad (lock screen) before i but the N800 down.

i guess its a bit harder on the N810 tho as one have to extend the keyboard to get at the dpad...

want to go back online? fire up whatever i want to use (browser, mail, rss for example), hit refresh or select page i want to go to, hit center dpad on the message that pops up, select network in dialog (thanks for not fixing that one, nokia!).

and even then im perfectly able to use the nail on my index finger as stylus for most ui tasks where the thumb or full finger would be to large.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

err, even tho its legal, does not mean its smart...

its starting to seriously sound as if some people are replacing religious texts with law texts, in that both should be the complete guide to how to live ones life.

and here i thought humans where equipped with something called a brain...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Just?

more like annoying for both.
My reset button is behind the screen.
Whether I have to reach for a stylus or press a power button, the effect is the same.

The ACTIONS of the current wireless configuration applet are perfect.
Its the UI to open it that I don't like.

I mainly use SSH with my machine (i do all on device compilation) going online is simply that - making the device accessible to the network.
I shouldn't have to reach round the back just for that, again the network configuration applet works its just not easily accessible.


You don't bite your nails like me.

I use my tablet all the time, and I have a great experience with it but then when I need to do silly things it frustrates me.

It doesn't matter anyway, i've started building myself a brightness applet inside liqbase :)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Well, I don't know about Norway, but here you get stuck for long time during traffic while commuting to work. While being stuck people read entire papers. They work on laptops. They put on make up.

And, in Amsterdam including the ring motorway around Amsterdam (A10) you actually have WiMAX coverage. So if I were living near Amsterdam and commuting to Amsterdam I would for sure sign up for 15 EUR a month WiMAX. And I would for sure do all kind of things in my car whilst 'driving'. And according to your pathetic defintion of 'smart' I'd be stupid. Heck, even someone who is phoning non-hands-free while in traffic jam can get a fine, but is it really not safe?

Smart people can do unbelievably stupid things. Law is not always justice either. What happened to responsibility? Sometimes its smart to drive less hard than the maximum speed allowed, sometimes its smart to drive through a red light.

That is what I had in mind. I had in mind some kind of keybind (or sensor ;)) which changes between stylus and finger mode, using some simple gconf2 settings.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I also find Ragner too dismissive and I am not convinced that it can't be done, especially if we are just talking about the basic stylus vs. finger differences - icon sizes, etc.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

SD69,
"icon sizes, etc" are what got us into this trouble now.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Look at 7710 - switch view key, pp. 12-13

http://nds1.nokia.com/phones/files/g...7710_UG_en.pdf

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Right. However, copying a competitors style du jour is hardly a way to "innovate by differentiating".

What's wrong with niches? Somebody has to sell things to people who are not content with mass market products. I mean... Ferrari is a niche product, isn't it? Should they become more like Toyota and VW?
(Oh, and thanks for implying I'm a nerd.)

citation needed
citation needed
citation needed
.. Pandora or Atom-based MID, one of those nice netbooks, ... whatever. There are companies who are not afraid of "catering a few nerds" as long as these "few nerds" pay enough. Obviously they do.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I like the idea of the desk key as well :)
That could be the gateway drug to a more touch friendly UI

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I think when you hear Internet access - you only think Browser, search, email, a little bit of chat which the phone caters to in some way (not too efficient still).

But Internet access can mean more ..
a) Photo updates to online sites (Flickr)
b) VoIP - Skype / Gizmo (with video support too), GTalk
c) Blog tool
d) Podcasting
e) Chumby agent (Grumby)
etc , most of which are not present on the cell phone or are very limited on the cell.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg - with some imagination and hardware and software support - there is more possible with the IT with internet access than just the regular stuff you get off the cell phone.

Nokia's marketing is spot-on - and when they said Internet access - I am sure they didn't mean just the browser and email either.

And anyways, the interpretation of "Internet access" has got nothing to do with UI decisions anyways. Its just a gateway to a vast array of information and data and how to process it while online. So Internet access can exist on the cell phone as well as the tablets and the desktops and in each device they mean and function in different ways - and this is primarily because of the form-function of each device.

The way I look at it - on the tablet the apps should compliment the form-factor and function of the tablet design itself.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Copying you call it, Benny. My goodness. I hope you don't any IBM clones. They're such lame copies of the Real Thing. I told you a million times what we do now is based on history, and we learn from what other people do right or wrong. If you call that copying, I guess we're all copycats.

Ferrari is actually copied, and constantly has to innovate in order to stay ahead. Unless there are patents. In the case of open source software its easy to copy. The main issue of lack is usability research (and Nokia had job possitions open for usability experts; they are aware).

This was announced around the time of the Maemo summit. Speaking of which the 'N900' will include a HS*PA chipset and will be more finger-based. You can find that information on the Maemo summit summaries. Nokia also has a 5-step plan for the NIT, they're now on step 4, and now wants to more cater to the masses.

I can guarantee you that non-user friendly, half-baked ports of Linux desktop utilities are less attractive than user friendly ports specific for a finger based touchscreen.

Yes, I see your point about RSS applet, but you are a power user. You have the power to install your stylus-based .deb. The normal user using the NIT just wants the thing to easily work out of the box.

(Sorry if I copied any English words previously in use :rolleyes:.)

Also possible is a touch-based settings menu, but quicker accessible than the current menu. Could be a hardware button on the device. From there, important settings like this one can be easily managed.

Indeed, when I think Internet access, I think using RSS to check out some podcasts instead of checking the 30 or so FM frequencies on the radio.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

The 7710 ran Symbian OS, which is -- and I'm being civil here -- slightly more mature in the touchscreen UI department than Linux, even if Series 90 was a bit of a mess.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Don't waste time judging the person or the reckessness of driving while using the IT - they are quite a few posts explaining why and usage scenarios where it is appropriate.

I only highlighted a usage case to explain the UI difficulaties - its got nothing to do with what I am actually running on the IT while driving - the stylus UI problem I mentioned is actually applicable to the GPS also.

And it is applicable whether you are driving or walking down the road, or using it while riding the subway train standing in a cramped car.

So be constructive and judge the UI issue instead of the driver judgement issue.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I have a) and b) installed on my phone. c) and d) is available, but not interesting for me ATM, so I don't have it installed. (Chumby - what was that again?)

Your're right, though, that some of these apps are more limited on the cell phone than I find acceptable for everyday use. They're only meant for the casual use while on the go.
But that's the whole point I'm trying to make: I'm afraid that by further "simplifying" the Maemo UI, applications on the tablet will be as limited as their cell phone counterparts - functionality stripped for mass market appeal and a simple user interface. It's not what you can do, it's how you can do it. Simple interfaces that reduce functionality are acceptable on the cell phone, not on a ~€400 "secondary device" that's really a very small netbook.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Okay, now I know you're joking. Are you the one nokia consulted about where to put the dpad on the n810?

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

please let the future be simple and intuitive.

http://liqbase.net/liq.20081102_235650.gary.scr.png

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Well, with a 4" screen, there are so often times when compromises have to be made in the display that it is a big advantage to have one always available key to toggle between views. That's the UI concept. Putting it into a menu, you have access issues that peope are sensitive to.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I appreciate your concern - even I wouldn't want functionality to be reduced and become something stripped down to a cell app variant in any way - with only a bigger screen to show for it.

But I think you are mixing 2 things here - UI design and functionality.

Making the UI simpler doesn't mean function will become simpler and reduced. The UI is a design element of usage - while function is what the application can do. UI is how you do it (on the screen).

So I don't see the two to mean the same thing. At least I am also like you - not wanting the function of the applications or platform becoming simpler and reduced - but I do want the UI becoming simpler - to make it easier to use on the tablet form factor - as a mobility factor.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

[QUOTE=lcuk;238875]please let the future be simple and intuitive.
Exactly my sentiment too ...

I thank you mostly with your effort with liqbase to show what possibilies are there with the existing framework )hardware and software). Most of us are only throwing out talking points - with nothing to show for it (sadly our inability to code and laziness), but you have demostrated many of what we are discussing so frequently in these forums in liqbase.

Simple menus - clean interface - wins the day - in fact liqbase has demoed more functions (multi-touch, screen resolution, kinetic scrolling everywhere feature etc while keeping the interface so simple (and finger friendly).

I only hope Nokia picks up some of these concepts and integrates into Maemo platform for the future.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

tso,
my tablet lives inside a wooden crate.
Its annoying and fiddly to get it out, even when its not in there, if I want to go to bed I disconnect the net.
Currently that involves grabbing the stylus and fiddling.

stuff it - I can't be arsed explaining why its right, I'm just gonna try and add it to liqbase.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

ah, so you mostly use your N810 with keyboard extended. should have figured. guess its yet another reason for getting the N800 then ;)

oh, but i do. i find that it does wonders for my ability to use the onscreen keyboard ;)

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

whiskey tango foxtrot? whats it doing in there?

oh and sorry, i found that my original post was not really complete so i deleted it and posted a new one...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

as finger friendly as I am, as a personal preference I loath an on screen keyboard.

The device is just too small for me to comfortably give up so much space for it.
If it was an 8inch+ device I wouldnt care, but its such a sacrifice.

I loathed adding it to liqbase, but know the 800 owners needed something.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

busses, trains, heard of those things? most norwegian cities have quite usable public transport systems.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

hold down the home button...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

With a simpler UI you attract more casual people. The hackers and power users can still use the device and modify it to suit their needs (unless they cry over paying 50 USD more due to HS*PA chipset). Heck, they'll be running Deblet by that time. Point is that these casual people don't get vendor locked-in by some evil corporation, and they're able to dabble more into the world ov Linux and open source, or at the very least the Extras repositories.

Good point, but the question to ask is: do you often change your mode between stylus and finger? I believe the answer is no. Optionally one can bind a hardware key to this functionality.

LOL while commuting? Are you kidding??? They're overcrowded you can't even sit. Sometimes you can't even enter the damn thing because its too full. Then stupid kids are trying to steal your stuff, or playing music out loud. No thanks. But if you can enter it, you can use your NIT while standing. With some kind HS*PA sharing user you even got connectivity. Anyway, its not really an argument against responsible behaviour in a car. Some people drive a car while they shouldn't. Some are good drivers. Some situations are safe; some dangerous.

If you still don't get why using the WiFi applet sucks with finger, maybe go try it out, perhaps you understand then...

And someone who sees 'touchscreen' as 'just another pointer device' simply does not understand how different the UI of a stylus and/or finger based UI is compared to conventionel (desktop) usage. Suggestion: install some finger friendly applications and try 'em out...

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Well, it's not limited to stylus v. finger, as you may want to switch views for other reasons. This happens all the time and may also be desirable for reasons as yet unthought of. Instead of binding a hardware key to the functionality, the hardware key and its binding should be a part of the UI and then app should provide the functionality. In some apps (media player) you may want different view switch than in others (such as PIM).

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

i keep wanting to use the [menu] key for exactly that.
a great number of input dialogs would go well with a simple/intermediate/complex UI option, just cycle round them.

also there is the Code/Design/Run cycle that the on device IDE should have..

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Interesting discussion here, thanks. Sorry if my previous comments felt dismissive, I would hope some other words would characterize them better... "realistic", for instance.

First of all, there is nothing that cannot be done, given enough effort. However, I didn't try to talk just about the basic differences... Yes, you can do a system with a reasonable effort that shows different size icons and buttons for the UI for stylus and finger, but at least I'm not a fan of doing things halfway, I tried to talk about "optimal" UI's. Optimal UI's should not feel like compromises.

Information density is basically split in half for finger vs. stylus, meaning how many controls or UI elements you can put on the screen. If you have a plan how you could design a system-wide style that would automatically accommodate the UI's so that the amount of information and the amount, size and placement of the UI controls in any given view would work for both stylus and finger optimized formats, please let me know about it. :)

My full quote tried to be: "It is not possible as a system-wide issue to design UI's for all the applications that would be 'optimal' for both stylus and the finger at the same time, unless nearly doubling the design and implementation effort." (emphasis added).

Yes you can do it by doing the design and implementation twice, and yes there are some small parts which you don't need to design twice, hence the "nearly". But just trying to squeeze stuff, have the same design, same components and same thinking for each of the UI views, will not be optimal for both stylus and the finger. The stylus does permit to place "more stuff on screen", whereas for the finger minimizing UI clutter and therefore having a bit more hierarchy works better. (Of course it's not as simple as that, but...)

A finger optimal UI won't be stylus optimal UI and vice versa. At least platform-wise, since people are going through different applications, in and out, switching between them, doing different tasks, different views and windows, having some apps stylus-driven (hey, i need to take the stylus out) and others finger-driven (damn, i need to put it back in) will not create a satisfying user experience.

Also the example about advancing touch UI's further with things like multitouch (nothing announced, sorry :) ) run contrary to trying to hold on to a dual stylus/finger UI style. (And multitouch is just one example, not a main driver.)

But also as noted in some of the comments here, nothing basically prevents "you" as the developers from doing otherwise.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I'd be more than happy to live with a UI that I find a little clumsy if functionality isn't reduced. As I stated above in an answer to qgil: It's not that I'll find the perfekt device anywhere on the market. It's all about compromise. I already live with a half-hearted compromise on OS2008, and I probably could live with Maemo5 if it doesn't restrict me any further.

The whole thing here took off not because somebody wanted finger-friendliness in general. The argument started because of suggestions like "only run applikations in full screen mode; only nerds switch between applications, anyway" - this is a simplification that reduces functionality.
Same goes for Fennec, which (at least that's my impression) is something like the Holy Grail for the finger-painting crowd at the moment. Compare the features (and how easily they are accessible) of MicroB to those of Fennec (few features, but hardly accessible).
Canola is another example... Easy to tap, difficult to use overall because of its tree-like navigation concept which doesn't scale to allow more functionality.
Also, I consider it a matter of functionality, not of UI design, if an application fails to present a decent overview of the information available, such as the RSS reader or the modest inbox.


I'm not arguing against the abstract concept of "finger-friendliness" as such, even though I don't support it either. I'm only against some of the more precise points made in this thread that I think are serious threats to the potential of the platform.
Also, I have yet to see a UI that is widely considered "simple" and does not achieve simplicity by dropping functionality. UI designers are lazy nowadays. They don't design UI anymore, they take them away (and with them everything that was driven by the UI). But I'm eager to learn and see what Maemo5 will have to offer here. I'll certainly not go and buy whatever netbook right now only because there's this vague threat of an over-simplified Maemo version in the future. Nokia will have to shoo me away with it if they don't want my money any more.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

as to the topic of the thread, from the comments so far here and elsewhere I think it can be safely assumed that

1 there will not be a stylus with n900

2 the finger friendly ui is the main thrust

3 "fat scroll bars" will be gone, I personally see this as a pointer to a general canola style/pdf reader "arrows appearing" style

4 there will not be a d-pad

and most likely there will be a multi-touch announcement at ces!

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

1) I hope there is a stylus.
2) no qualms
3) ditto
4) i like hardware keys for different reasons

why would they jump up and give a "me too!" announcement at ces?
i will be very sad if they stand up and say "we can do what iphone did a while ago".
I dont even know where this ces thing came from anyway, but if they do you would think it would be a bit more classy than that.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

I don't know about the lack of a d-pad, but otherwise I'd agree to this...also, no stylus hopefully means a capacitive TS, otherwise it makes little sense.

This forum would most likely burn with indignant outcrys after such an announcement, I can already sense that :D

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Fingers on a capacitive touchscreen... What a great combination for selecting text for copypasting.

There's a reason why you can't do this on the jPhone.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Actually, there is at least one very simply and handy way to do that: the way a BlackBerry Storm does it.
http://gallery.techarena.in/showphoto.php/photo/16021 - finally a real-life benefit from multitouch...

And that's actually a good example why I think that going finger-only is a good thing (maybe not short-term, but after a while): it forces developers to come up with better thought-through UIs, which ultimately means better apps.

The only real casualty I see when going finger-only is sketching apps.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

Finger friendliness doesn't go hand-in-hand with reduced functionality. I think, especially when you move away from a UI built on compromise, functionality will actually go up, rather than down. Don't think of finger friendliness as tripling the size of all default scrollbars. Think of it as smooth, inertial scrolling right from the view, which is certainly an improvement for both stylus and fingers.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

What Ragnar `announced' is basically what we heard on the summit already. :p

So, it appears you both agree, and want a hardware button which takes you to the configuration screen of an application. Am I correct?

But this is one of the things where Linux is weak. Application developers do put 'Cut' and 'Paste' in the 'Edit' menu (often with key bindings to them) but something like Settings or Preferences changes throughout the UI. Worse, it should be easily accessible from the computer using a keybind. I don't know if GNOME HIG concerns this... but IMO it is important.

Its the same with /etc. Its a mess. Heck, some UNIX systems even put binaries in there. Now there are some projects to abstract /etc (with backwards compatibility), even so far, that the configuration format is all the same. Like on MacOS X which heavily uses XML for this purpose.

(As for multi touch. Apple didn't invent this. It was already in use in research projects long ago. There were demos about software synths using a touchscreen with multitouch long ago. There were demos about RTS game using a touchscreen with multitouch a long time ago.). Anyone who has been at Siggraph knows this :D Apple didn't invent this! They bought one of the innovating corporations in this field, and implemented the functionality on one of their popular devices. Multi-touch history. (Here are some nice touch screen videos: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.) Still just another input device? I remember a time where I had only a joystick as input device because I had no mouse. Well, the mouse did open my eyes. And later, a trackball did, too. Now I use mainly a trackpoint.

Re: Future of Internet Tablets
 

chlettn,

of course its not the only casualty, in different environments having to use a finger is futile. Its getting cold round here, I can't imagine many people playing with their iphones stood at the busstop with their gloves on.

Same for driving gloves and gps.

Coming up with a vulcan mind grip for something thats as naturally intuitive as text selection is just stupid.

Thats not innovation thats backtracking and trying to replicate already existing well understood common functionality with something that takes a whole page to explain.