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Re: safety and politics
Nah.. just was clarifying my opinion of what is "work". You said IF it's labor of any sort then you'd disagree.. and I was agreeing with you. Building a shed is quite a lot of work.. but I wouldn't consider it so if it was something I wanted to do. Same with the network analogy.
But doing something for somebody else in which the only benefit you get is the "happy" feel-good sensation of being a kindly neighbor.. and/or money... that's work. The last paragraph was more to sungrove.. He made the comment some people actually love their jobs that also happen to provide their lifestyle. They do what they love as he says. And I agree that there are SOME.. I just don't know any. But like me.. I love computers - I work with computers - that doesn't mean I love my work. I absolutely despise life at 06:30 every morning that I have to wake up and trot off to this god-forsaken vortex of hell... (I work for the gubberment :D). Loving the object with which you do your job.. doesn't necessarily equate to loving your job. I guess really what I'm getting at is this: If I inherited 600 million dollars today and made a 1 million dollar salary every year for nothing.... there is quite a bit about my life I'd change. Someone that can honestly say that they would be doing exactly the same thing they are doing right now; even with all the money in the world; well... IF you're being honest... I salute you. |
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Well, you sort of know ME, and I enjoyed my work with Nokia immensely (I actually looked forward to going in to my job at the local factory before it closed) and at times it was more fun than play. One reason why I am very, very unhappy at being let go...
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Re: safety and politics
So.. if some uncle you never heard about suddenly died and left you everything.. and you instantaneously became a billionaire overnight of an established company where you get constant royalties and income from now until forever...
given the choice - you would have continued to work for Nokia anyway and just used the money you got as play money? Does suck about the lay-off though dude... it would be doubly worse getting fired from a job you actually enjoy.. as opposed to one you did because you had too. Also is a negative to Nokia as well though.. since firing employees that actually like their job is never in a companies best interest.. |
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If I came into that sort of money I'd become a full-time writer.
But that's one hypothetical I can count on being unrealistic. ;) |
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Well ok then... you may have enjoyed your job.. but you did it because you needed the money :).
Money is the driving factor that propels almost everyone in a business. I think the one exception I've heard of is Pat Tillman.. who left a career of fame and fortune to become a military special forces soldier. Granted, he died, but still - I admire the man for doing what he wanted to do.. not what he had to do to survive in the current money-driven world. |
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you had said something like- 'why work if the government is just going to give you money-' I said, paraphrasing myself something like- 'well because you can get more out of work than money.' I guess we could make a list, but isn't it pretty obvious even the most boring job will end up giving you something - at least something to go home and complain about, right? Many people seem to have a major part of their social life as a result of it for one thing. But really what I was getting at is that, to risk getting a bit esoteric here, ( btw- I just found a bit here- http://www.kheper.net/topics/esoteric.html on the subject of esoteric as opposed to exoteric. ) work is about your dream(s) and can be about your highest self. But I think, because of the various complexities of life ,the need to pay the bills and the endless emphasis in this world that you are your job and your job is your status, we easily lose track of our dream even if we are lucky enough to find it in ourselves. For example, I took on the ridiculous dream that I wanted to be a musician. But as with most musicians, I wasn't good enough to be able to earn money doing it. But still it is my dream. I love to do it and the few times I have been paid to do it have just been a fantastic experience. I mean also that money needn't change hands in order for this sort of 'dream work' to happen and be real. It was just a great combination of doing what I wanted and getting paid ( or not) to do it. It is this sort of experience that I think all our lives are capable of being like at least part of the time. And this is part of what makes me continue to hope for a safe country and a cleaner environment. What good is my dream of playing the piano if when I step out the door I am faced with gang members who want to sell me drugs or I have to breath dirty air from auto emmissions, or I hear that the oceans are dying as a result of global warming? Neil |
Re: safety and politics
That actually goes to further my argument sungrove...
Most everyone would wish to be doing something else... but we do what we do because it's what pays us the most, or what offered us the job.. and we have bills to pay. Since the government is just going to be handing out cash on the street corners.. paying for my food for me.. paying for my medical for me.. paying for everything I need to survive... I don't need to do the job that needs to get done anymore - because I don't want to. I'll go do what I want to do.. whether I'm good at it or not.. because money won't be a factor anymore. Like you, for example. You can go be a musician now. Whatever job it is your doing now.. all of sudden won't be getting done.. but you don't need to worry or care about that - the government has your back. How many people actually enjoy farming or being farmers?? How many do it because it's what they know and what they can do?? Well.. government will subsidize them. They can opt to either not do anything anymore, or do less work and make the same money.. What do you think the economic impact would be if all the farmers decided not to work anymore? Or the IT guys that are tired of telling people to "reboot" and then proceed on having to explain that to reboot, you click the start button... How many janitors actually like their jobs?? And they are usually on the lower end of the pay scale... they truly COULD quit and likely make as much money from all the government programs as they are at their current jobs. Obviously people on my end I'm a being a bit exaggerated.. even with all the government handouts planned in a truly socialist society it's unlikely I'd break even by quitting my job... but all of the jobs that nobody really wants to do?? Those are typically necessary, but dirty, jobs that all of a sudden the one factor that gets people to do them, money, is no longer a factor. The cities will be dirty.. the trash will no longer get picked up.. the sewers will not be maintained.. people with septic tanks will be unable to call anyone to come fix it.. floors won't get swepped or mopped.. you (generalized, not you specifically) won't be able to dial 1-800-DELL and get someone willing to put up with ignorance to get help with your PC... Instead... we'll have an abundance of.. Writers and Musicians; for example. And I hate to say it.. but the only way you'll get rid of the whole "gang members that want to sell me drugs" ... is to legalize drugs. That will make the black-market value for drugs plummet. Quite evidently, making it illegal isn't doing a damned thing - it's still everywhere.. I was able to buy Mary J in Middle school.. I'm positive it's into our elementary schools by now. There really isn't ANYTHING the government can do about that.. except to finally STOP trying to control it. |
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(not specific to the post above)
Welfare is a form of modern slavery, disguised as assistance. It entraps desperate people and once they're caught in its web it is very, very difficult to get out. Many assume otherwise but I daresay they've never been in the welfare hellhole to know. They should look up Whoopi Goldberg's recount of her experience to get some perspective... it sure helped me understand. I also bet MOST people not working do WANT to work; they just encounter near-insurmountable walls of resistance. People who cast stones at the subject from a comfortable distance trivialize what can be a painful experience. There are always factors in any given situation that only those close to it can understand. It's easy to lob trite, pithy and derogatory comments at a situation rather than put effort into understanding it... lot of irony there. Until someone has, like I did few years ago, gone 9 straight months without full employment and eventually dependent on the grace of family then IMO they are ill-equipped to pass judgment on those in dire straits. Just as I was before I experienced that hell first-hand. I remember after 4 months when things got bad (just before Christmas 2002) I was seeking assistance. I had donated to gas and electrical emergency funds for years and now it was my turn to benefit-- right? Nope! Gas company said I had made too much money while employed to qualify (county said the same thing about house payment, food etc) and electrical was a co-op that said they refused to participate in community outreach (more irony). So we almost lost everything and just scraped by. If I had made a lower wage, I could have been entitled to all sorts of programs (benefitted by the high taxes of that former high wage) BUT I would have been sucked into welfare hell so in the end we were better off for not qualifying... but when I say we just skirted complete disaster I am not exaggerating. We are still dealing with collectors of unpaid accounts (more irony: we had cut up our credit cards and embarked on a payoff plan months before I was laid off). And now I'm facing it again (possibly even worse) and though I'm trying to be positive and unemotional I will say I damn sure am not very tolerant of the dismissive attitude of those who have never known true struggle. /rant |
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Well.. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously.. but my life story is as follows:
I was married at 17 with a baby on the way.. I worked in McDonalds and the wife worked as a telemarketer type. For the first couple of months we lived with the parents, and then moved into an apartment. It got particularly bad towards the 6th month because my wife quit her job.. we got on WIC. (Woman, infant, Children) and received coupons to get Milk, Eggs, formula, etc. We were unable to pay the last 2 months rent in our apartment so I had to beg my parents for the cash. I also lost my McDonalds job due to a big political problem.. I joined the military shortly there-after.. we went 2-3 months without income. I sold two motorcycles my parents had gotten me growing up and gave my wife the cash to survive.. because for the first month and half in the military you don't receive a paycheck. Then we got a pitiful paycheck that was supposed to "back date" what we were supposed to have gotten the past month, except that they took out the "uniform" costs. After Bootcamp I went to A-School where the navy wouldn't move my family.. so for a little over 8 months my wife and child stayed in my parents basement and the bulk of that we were on the WIC program. It wasn't until AFTER a-school, and me getting top of my class, that I got an immediate promotion to E-2 (which was still pitiful paywise, but at least we had housing at my new location), and after 4 months of evaluation - thanks to the accelerated program for getting top in the class - I got a promotion to E-4. And within a year to E-5. My navy career flew. Then I got out... and unfortunately we never saved anything. Just before I got out of the navy we applied for a credit card with an insane credit limit because we knew we were going to need it. So for 6 months we lived on a credit card out of her parents basement (my parents no longer had a house) until I got the job I'm currently in. So I'm not exactly pointing fingers at things I don't understand. That credit card is still nearly full and we're trying to pay it off.. we live to paycheck to paycheck as it is and if I were to lose my job tomorrow we'd be screwed. |
Re: safety and politics
fatalsaint, did you see the first line in my post? I'm thinking maybe not...
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Re: safety and politics
I did.. You said it wasn't directed at me.. but I figured since I believe in what you were saying.. I should spell out my qualifications to speak on the subject.
Granted, I've never been homeless or lived out of a box, or in the bathroom of a closed store.. but I have had some relatively difficult times. But at no point did I think the government should be required to pay for me or my family.. and it took many months, and to the point we literally couldn't afford food for day to day eating.. before we finally went and got on the WIC program. I think like you in that way Tex.. people shouldn't speak about what they don't know.. so I felt the need to explain myself. Much like this war in iraq... for example.. |
Re: safety and politics
But-- the government is US.
If I pay in taxes, I'd damn well better receive a benefit. I happen to be a taxpayer who thinks I've been screwed in that regard by my so-called representatives. I think the income tax system is counter-capitalism anyway but I already explained why. And I disagree about the Iraq war, because that's not in the same vein as what we're talking about above (personal experience). We have every right and indeed a DUTY to protest what we see as malfeasance and ineptitude on the part of our elected officials, and I defy anyone to try to take that right away from me. I will respond with the same vigor as those decrying 2nd amendment infringement. ;) |
Re: safety and politics
lol.
When the facts you are using are coming from the media.. I file a serious grievance. I've seen first hand the lies and BS that get's spread on our so-called "news" stations.. the bias, both ways, and the jumping to conclusions and non-fact verifying stories that they run.. And too often I get into arguments and debates with people that seem to think their local FOX anchor knows everything and he said Bush was a crack job. Not to mention people trying to tell me what the iraqi people think of us. By raise of hand.. how many people on this forum have actually walked through the streets of iraq shaking hands with the people that have lived there for the past half-century? I've been thanked more times than I can count.. had tears on my uniform from grateful women and children.. and even got the god-send opportunity to save a few. I refuse to be told that anything I endured wasn't worth it.. and that includes if the price for it had been my life. Hell, half the time I think the people I met over there were more grateful to me for my service in the united states military... than the people in the united states. ETA: And regarding the tax thing.. I don't think taxes should be used to benefit individuals. We already got into this discussions.. I think the Government needs to butt out of the things that go on within our walls, and pay more attention to those outside our walls. Taxes should be for things that benefit every person in the US.. not a handful here, and a handful there. I'd even go so far as to say that street taxes might be pushing it.. sure, most people get use out of a well maintained road - but some people don't drive. I live on the west coast now, but did live on the east coast where toll roads were common. I don't like tolls.. but a toll road makes more sense to me than a mandatory tax that supposedly helps keeps the community roads fixed... that never happens to be my communities road.. |
Re: safety and politics
You can get at facts, even in the "media". It just takes more effort (that includes broad coverage, an open but critical mind, and some education) than most Americans seem to want to expend. It definitely requires reading objective, analytical pieces rather than the populist hype (search for the Smithsonian article "Iraq's Unruly Century" -- that should be required reading for every adult American who can read it IMO).
And you seem to misunderstand what I'm saying about taxes and individuals, but we tend to agree with certain caveats. But I already went into all that. |
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Thanks Tex... I'll take a look.
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Try to not live on credit. For a mortgage I can understand it (provided you're able to pay for it) and ironically I don't see it that different from renting, but beyond that I feel little empathy for people who live in credit: you save up until you can pay for what you'd like to buy. E.g. a car. And then you buy it. Not before. I hope the current 'credit crisis' (as it is called here) opens the eyes to some who live on credit... but I don't hold my breath...
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Take away those support systems and how would your story ( thanks for sharing it, don't mean to pick on you really) have evolved do you think? And why do you feel the empathy for the Iraqis and apparently not Americans? Like Texrat said, we are tax paying Americans. It always ticks me off when I hear about tax cuts. I pay about 6k on a net income of about 25 k. Gee, do you think we could cut a bit of slack for me and folks like me in case things don't work out quite right? I'm not talking about sitting around wanting the government to pay my bills while I play my piano. I'm talking about a safety net. Something to grab onto for a breef time while we work to make needed improvements. This, ironically, is exactly what you discribe in your post. I think the problem is that , as usual, the spin machine and echo chambers churn away dayly from the likes of Rush Limbah talking about how lazy Americans want socializm so they don't have to do any work. That is far from what I am talking about. I give you my work life as an example. I wash windows as a self employed guy. This is a part time job. It's very seasonal. At the moment I have no work on my schedule because of the time of year. As a self employed person I can work for whoever I like and just ignore people I don't. I can work as much or as little as I like. And this sort of thing can be started by anyone capable of doing the work or even someone who is not if he or she can employ others. But when I was homeless and living in my car I couldn't believe how hard it was to get any kind of support. As I said in an earlier post, the most I got was a small amount of food stamps and a few food bank visits. This is the type of support we need to be willing to give our citizens imo. Short term support that is easier to access when truely in need. And the same could be done as a micro loan to help people start very small businesses like I did. The thing is, I was lucky I made it through all that without much worse happening. I was very fulnerable and it was mostly because I was young and had good energy ( and I was honest, that's important because people need to trust you) to be able to persist and keep fending for myself. But it did take three years to get to the point I could get an apartment. Back then an apartment was $160 a month. These days, well, way more than that. What seems to be misunderstood also by right leaning folks, sorry, how else do I say it, is that we who oppose the Iraq thing don't have empathy for Iraqis. We do. And truely I can understand how fatalsaint feels about us not knowing what Iraqis really feel. But there hasn't been much chance for much objective ground reporting to go on there, has there? Ask Kimberly Doshier about that. But I remember feeling a lot of empathy for Iraqi children before we started this war. That's why I wanted us to try other ways to deal with the perceived threat or find out more about it instead of rushing into it. I'm not being revisionist here. This is how I felt seven years ago. Neil |
Re: safety and politics
My arguments dealing with iraq usually don't come into play if two people want to bicker whether or not we should have gone. They can have fun all day.. unfortunately it's a futile argument in the end for two reasons:
A) We did. and B) They'll never have all the information that was on the presidents desk when the decision was made. Period. A lot of that was classified at the highest possible security levels. Hell, for all we know Bush went to settle the score Daddy left hanging. :shrug: My arguments more lean to being pissed off at the arse holes that were standing in front of the military base in which I lived.. holding signs and screaming at us.. and throwing **** at our cars as we left the base every day. It got the point we just stayed home until they left. And to those that want to just up and bail right now with no thought to the fact that we created a power vacuum in that country that needs to be filled first because it's "not out problem". Bull sh**. They damn well are our responsibility now.. whether it should have happened or not. Whether it was American soldiers that should have been tasked or not.. we were. And I wouldn't trade any of my memories there for anything. And, IMHO (this is just my opinion), I believe a homeless person on the streets of America has a lot more opportunities, assistance, help, and anything else he or she needs, than your average person in Iraq had before we got there... and even now it's not significantly better.. but it's at least a little. To address the other points, I do know that I would have been in a seriously worse condition without parents and without WIC. As I said, before I got on we couldn't afford food from one day to the next. But once we were on WIC it was ridiculous. We got something like 2 gallons of milk a week, dozens of eggs a week.. we couldn't eat it fast enough! We actually started giving milk things away. I already stated this when we debated earlier... I do understand a difference between a "hand up" and a "hand out"... There are already too many loop holes in our welfare system to allow people to do nothing - and get anything. More welfare is not the answer IMHO.. much like a lot of you are saying you don't want to ban all guns - but you want tighter controls?? Well.. I don't necessarily want to completely demolish ALL forms of welfare.. but I do want it regulated and controlled. Mandatory community service for those on it.. things like that. I know this goes into the area that Texrat was complaining about, the social workers making random stops on peoples door to micromanage what you can and can't do with your food.. etc.. but honestly - the human race as a whole has proved countless times it can't be trusted. Hell - we just paid 300 billion dollars to give 3 CEO's the severance packages of Bill Gates' wet dreams for crying out loud... and we're about to cough up another 25 billion to greedy car manufacturers. Now that the government is just giving people money.. I mean why the hell not?? It won't take long before every business in the world is going to "require a bailout for the government or we'll file bankruptcy". This cracks me up: Note: There's a cuss word :). |
Re: safety and politics
I'm with sungrove: the hell with handouts. The hell with welfare.
What the US needs is a bridge system, that recognizes the reality of a safety net requirement to get laid-off workers from one job to the next. Yes, there are pocket programs here and there, but as I found out a white collar worker is more likely to disqualify than qualify. There seems to be this perception that government services are only for the poor. But for those of us who used to be poor and fought our way up the ranks, we wind up having more at stake when things go sour, and pay higher taxes to boot. Only to be denied a place on the bridge when our jobs are sent elsewhere. One thing I don't want to hear is how companies don't owe communities. They damn sure do. One clear reason is the tax breaks and subsidies that became the norm starting in the 1980s. But in a more traditional sense, there had been a longstanding tradition that companies benefitted from their communities in myriad ways, including tax-funded education. There used to be an understanding that the payback was along the lines of steady employment (and ultimately pensions) for the citizens who committed their lives to the success of those companies... but in recent times the loyalty became only one-way: the rank and file were expected to fully commit, but company executives no longer had to. Companies grew to international status and became stateless... they no longer had allegience to their own nations much less local regions! I knew the writing was on the wall when a former US employer reincorporated in Bermuda, admittedly to reduce taxes. So they wanted the benefits of tax-funded efforts like education but didn't want to participate in the funding! That sort of disconnect is what pisses me off. Corporate executives want all the benefits but none of the responsibility-- all the while flipping that around for their employees! ********. And we have allowed it-- this new advent of itinerant CEOs drawing disproportionate salaries, wrecking one company after another only to escape with golden parachutes each time and no real punishment from stockholders or boards. And I'm not just ranting-- that's real. It's like there's now a CEO farm system, a good old boys network looking out for each other but not those working stiffs who enable their egregious lifestyle. I'm all for capitalism, but dammit, the unregulated market is a failure. Bring back responsibility. Bring back accountability. Bring back due punishment for corporate crimes. Because if we don't, we're just gonna keep stupidly relearning this 1929ish lesson again and again and again. /rant 2 |
Re: safety and politics
Yes, the hell with welfare. Just let those kids starve. And those old people. And those disabled people. Let them all die.
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Re: safety and politics
Feel better, Mr. Kaczynski? ;) It always feels better when you write it down, doesn't it?
Some nice stuff in there; keep workin' it. Use more cheek, less tongue. |
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Its pretty simple. You need to throw some kind of fuel in the body so that it functions. If you don't do this, you get weak, and you die. By giving people food which would otherwise have been tossed away you make society more efficient. And all the things related to economy nobody has still explained why banks are allowed to only have 9% (or even less) of the money they have in liquide form, and are allowed to lend money to customers which they don't have themselves. Study how this started and you will find out this society is sooner or later doomed because the **** has to hit the fan some time. Plus, we pay our tax one way and the other: income tax and sale tax, and inflation. Edit: holy **** this forum doesn't even allow to use some kind of regular expression... |
Re: safety and politics
I have no particular disagreement with any of the previous couple of posts. (well, excluding geneven :))...
One quick question though Tex... this "bridge" system of yours to aid from one job to the next - isn't that supposed to be "unemployment"?? I don't mean unemployment as in - no job.. but unemployment as in, the check you file for the state and they base your income off how much you made at the job; and they only require you send two resume's out a week. I was on this for the 6 months I was without a job in the Navy.. the unemployment check was how I paid the bills, and the CC was used for Food, Gas, etc. The only time you don't get unemployment is if you quit your job, AFAIK... so if you put yourself into that position.. that's your fault.. but if you're fired - there is at least SOME kind of assistance there that isn't "government" assistance.. it's a state thing. Unless that Ion Storm is affecting me again =-\. |
Re: safety and politics
Unemployment doesn't cut it. And yes, I collected it when I've been laid off (not fired). It's a pittance, and not enough to support a family for 9 months.
I think you'd be better off not assuming so much about what others write. |
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Thank you, peanut gallery. |
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I didn't say it was adequate Tex.. just wanted to make sure that that was what you were getting at. If unemployment was raised to being an adequate amount, wouldn't that cover your bridge?
Obviously I know Unemployment sucks pay wise.. considering I had to use the credit card for food :). The best I could get out of my unemployment was a car payment, the CC payment, and something else. If we'd had rent on top of that; we probably couldn't have done it. (they don't let you pay bills with credit :D) |
Re: safety and politics
Sorry for blowing a gasket. I had received distressing news about a job I wanted.
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Re: safety and politics
That sucks man... keep the spirits high; someone of your caliber is bound to land something good.
http://www.fangamers.net/images/smilies/thbeerchug.gif |
Re: safety and politics
Why does the automobile sector get huge financial injections while in the same time other businesses in all kind of fields go bust?
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Neil |
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The issues are completely un-related at a basic level.. if I was petitioning to have the city purchase my rifle that's one thing... I'm not. I merely want the ability to buy one myself. Welfare on the other hand.. is asking the entire community to chip in to feed another. So while I believe your guys' arguments work for Welfare... they have no relation to gun control.. since guns and their ownership are (or should be) a personal choice - not a collective one. One of the reasons it was written into the Bill of Rights - which is largely regarded as a list individual rights.. not collective (or group) ones. Don't get me wrong.. I believe a compromise is needed somewhere... just - a compromise regarding at least two fundamentally related aspects would make more sense than applying the same logic to completely different foundations. |
Re: safety and politics
(a) Texrat, I agree that my last post was wrong.
And (b) "And, IMHO (this is just my opinion), I believe a homeless person on the streets of America has a lot more opportunities, assistance, help, and anything else he or she needs, than your average person in Iraq had before we got there... and even now it's not significantly better.. but it's at least a little." But the fair comparison would be between how things would be if Saddam had been ousted peacefully, which could definitely have been done by natural aging, eventually. We don't really know the answer to that; we can't exactly run a comparison test. As I said in a post far back in the thread, we allowed the Hitler ally Franco to reign in Spain, and not only on the plain, for 50 years. Spain has turned out well, it seems to me. I am dramatically decreasing my participation here, which my un-fans can rejoice in. I predict that with the new atmosphere, you will get fewer disruptive forces like me and fewer newbies. The people who are left will agree more and more. |
Re: safety and politics
Geneven... I like your direction there... the problem I see with that, however, is that typically in history - when you let dictators and rulers rule.. when they die out - they tend to place people with their same idealogical views into the throne as their successors. Typically their children.
in most cases (that I know)... evil dictators and tyrants line of villainy was usually stopped by violence.. either a revolution of the countries own people - or outside forces breaking them down.. With one obvious objection being the Roman Empire.. which collapsed on itself due to the inability to maintain stability throughout the massive empire it built. |
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The problem, fatasaint, is that our leadership is inconsistent on a grand and undeniable scale.
We dislodge this dicator, ignore that dictator, and support yet another. Yes yes, there are allll sorts of rationales and reasons... but IMO they don't wash. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend-- he's a potential future enemy. Understanding that is not rocket science-- but it seems to be beyond the grasp of the neocons. |
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Definitely in agreement there. We either need to be the world police.. or butt out. Half-asked gets us no where .. and causes unnecessary strain and stress on everyone involved.
I don't really think it's our job to protect the entire planet... but then - there is the whole "Responsibility" with "power" saying... ETA: However.. the enemy of my enemy can be a useful "asset" now. |
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Re: safety and politics
Nobody can fight everybody at once ;). The only way to win global domination is to get the enemies of your enemies to help you destroy your enemy.. and then the enemies of your new "friends" to help destroy them.. and so on :D. Till you widdle the world down to a manageable size and THEN kill everyone left.
Not that.. I've planned this.. or anything... :D |
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