"Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Is anyone else getting as annoyed by the constant "fixed in fremantle" comments on bugzilla? OK, it's great that things are getting fixed, but that doesn't help us now, does it?

We don't have a real ETA on fremantle, and we don't enough know for definite if it will be ported to the n800/n810. Best guesses are talking Q2 next year, so best case we're looking at 4 months to see these fixes. In some respects, that's even more annoying than not fixing bugs; at least if things aren't going to be fixed officially you can start to look for alternatives.

The HTC Touch HD is here already, with a screen almost as good as the nokia's, 3G, GPS, etc... OK, so there's no hardware keyboard, and it runs winmo, but at least it's here now.

I love my n800, but I really want an update ...

</rant>

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

You rather prefer Fremantle's part of Bugzilla to be closed?

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Not really. TBH, I'm just fed up with receiving emails saying somethings fixed, getting all excited, then finding out I'm going to have to wait another 4+ months to see the fix. If we get to see them at all.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

i guess a lot of users are happy with their tablet, hardware-wise, byt want to see some software issues fixed.

with the recent economic events, and the lack of info about what hardware fremantle will run on, one wonders if said problems will only be fixed by buying a whole new tablet. something one may not be able to afford...

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Like TSO said, my n800 does what I want from a hardware perspective, it just needs a few minor fixes. Like this one.

Although I do want a shiny new toy, but then I'm a geek, so I always want a new toy :p

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Just saw this on this thread. That more or less confirms that we won't be getting fremantle back-ported, and so won't be getting the bug-fixes back-ported. 770 all over again?

At least with microsoft/apple you know that they're going to shaft you up-front (not that I'd EVER buy an apple product).

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Déjà vu... the same thing happened to OS2006 bugs on the 770 when the N800 and OS2007 came out.

This is 770-land all over again.

To illustrate, below is a question I posted to the Maemo ML last October about Diablo on the 770 as an update to OS2008HE. And Quim Gil's anwser, which was forthcoming and honest.

I think it's clear where we're headed with the N8x0 generation and Fremantle.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

This discussion just can't seem to die. Each release has a lifetime, eventually you have to move on to the next release. All software companies do this, just be happy that Nokia is open enough for you to find out about bugfixes 6 months before a release. . . .

Really, honestly, it doesn't matter as much as everybody seems to think it will if Nokia provides an official release for OMAP2 hardware. Fremantle is significantly more open in practically every respect than Diablo, and this will make it much easier to put together a community backport. Either way, let's get a little closer to the real thing before we decide that it will or it wont be released based on incomplete information. . . .

You would prefer they pull an exact date out of thin air, then meet that whether or not the software is ready? Or not meet it at all and just keep pushing it back? It's pretty clear from the SDK timeline approximately when it'll be released: Summer 2009.

Hardly, I don't know how long you've been involved in the Bugzilla game, but not getting a reply at all (which is typically how it worked) is way more irritating.

Sure, but it isn't using a Cortex A8, just another slow ARM11.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Don't compare the desktop market to the embedded one, they aren't even remotely similar (do you get OS upgrades with WinMob or Palm? . . .). Let's see what Apple does when they actually have a generational upgrade that's more than just slapping a GPS and a 3G modem on a generation 1 iPhone. . . .

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Personally, I find being told that something is fixed but I can't have it more annoying than being told nothing. Ignorance is bliss, after all.

I've not had any major speed complaints about the my n800, so that's not much of an issue. Reading email, playing mp3s and browsing a few websites doesn't require much power.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Yeah, I kinda thought open source would be more... you know... open.

(Here's where someone points me to the unusable Fremantle source...)

I was intrigued by the Mer reference the other day... http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed It sounds waaaaay more interesting and useful than Paymantle.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Who said anything about the desktop market? I ran winmo devices for about 3 years before I moved to maemo, partially in a desire to move away from the MS way of doing things. And yes, you do get OS upgrades for winmo, my Motorola Q9 has been upgraded (officially) from winmo 5 to 6, then to 6.1

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

fpp,

if i had a 770 in my hands I would do my best to get liqbase working on it.
I simply cannot fly blind and do not know what problems need overcoming.
(though I do have a runlog someone sent me, but its still not quite the same)

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

at least they shouldn't close the bugs. if they wanna put freematle and be done, ok. but only close them when there is ACTUALLY a Freemantle.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Open doesn't have anything to do with officially supporting certain hardware. What open does do is enable the community to step up and provide that support.

Same place as the Diablo sources.

Paymantle . . . clever. Mer is actually using a lot of the current Fremantle sources.

My own vision is to use Mer as a base for a Fremantle backport to OMAP2 hardware, and why would that even be possible? Because of Nokia's openness.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

We know that there will be OpenGL acceleration in Fremantle. We also know that we have no drivers for our graphics hardware (PowerVR).

If we want a backport, the community really needs to be working on an optimized software OpenGL renderer for our devices, in order to be ready for the community backport that will be required next spring. I know we could squeeze better performance out of the Mesa software renderer, it just requires some low-level programmer types to get in there and make it happen.

I've said it before; the liqbase speed hacks would probably really help us here.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Apple supports their OS on their hardware for quite a long time, you know. Leopard works on old PPC Macs from around 2002 (and can be hacked on to older ones). I don't know what kinda shaft you're talking about...

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

All this talk about the community back-porting fremantle doesn't help with the fact that nokia/maemo are closing bugs raised against chinook/diablo as fixed, when they are only fixed in firmware that won't be available on the hardware of the reporter.

"We've fixed the problem with your car, you just need to buy a new car to get the fix"

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

yes qole, we need something.
but neither I nor qwerty could get a fully buildable opengl stack together to start hacking from.
I managed to get the binaries up and running, but that really doesn't help.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Having to use Mac OS in the first place isn't being shafted enough? The way Jobs treats the fan-boys (who lap it up) looks like a good, hard shafting to me.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Support for... what? Software they can't get for 6 months? We work to pinpoint and file bugs... only to not be able to reap the benefits of the work...? Open should work two ways but it seems more like a suggestion dropbox. I guess I was kinda expecting a Debian-style instant gratification thing, with official releases being nice but unnecessary.

Of course backport implies that it's second-class. Sure it's lower end hardware with less capabilities, but we like the hardware (except the camera of course! :) ). The screen is great, the mic is great, CPU is fine, wifi is very good, battery life awesome. It's software that's too often half-baked.

I know they're more open than most, and it has its advantages, but at the end of the day, we know the current gen devices are more and more likely to be orphaned the longer the release delays. Perfectly good hardware!

I was interested in Mer because it takes the power out of the Nokia camp and puts most of it in the Debian camp. They have been through this open thing already. They know how to make it work.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Wowww someone's brain's been washed real good! :D

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

I've had an anti-apple bug up my *** since I did graphics at uni, and they forced the crappy macs on us, with it's stupid, patronising OS. Sorry.

Besides, mac bashing is just fun :p

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

why did the forum *** out my a-s-s?

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

in the end nokia is in this to sell hardware. and right now the market for tablets are being overrun by ipod touch and the oncoming mid's.

what irks tho is the thought that thhe software devs have fixes ready, maybe some thats easy to implement in diablo, but they seem to besitting on them rather then push them out by ssu because nokia management wants the focus directed towards the next hardware series.

things just go "fixed in fremantle" with no indication on how trivial or complex the fix may be.

aat times one may have gotten more info by tossing the report into a black hole...

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

prudish americans?

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Americans hate donkeys.

EDIT: On the other hand, you can talk about your ARSE as much as you want.

And Now For An Etymology Lesson:

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

You have to remember that you're going to be releasing this under Fremantle, so you should be using that set of libraries as much as possible. We'll probably have to run it in a chroot in Diablo.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Yes Gary, I know you're that dedicated, and it's good of you. But there are few others like you (John Costigan and the Canola team and maybe a couple more).

If OS2008HE were updated to match Diablo, pretty much *all* current apps would run on the 770 without their authors having to worry about it or even care. I think that would be a much saner situation.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

This is exactly the point. What they say by "fixed in Fremantle" is something like "No, we won't fix it, because this part will be replaced anyway on a different OS and we guess it'll probably work there. We won't spend any more time fixing the bug you have meanwhile."

The Right Thing to do would be to close these bugs as WONTFIX, because they're about Diablo and will not be fixed for Diablo.

There's not one single bug about Fremantle, so it's not logical to close them for Fremantle.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

I'd actually prefer updated packages for diablo, since they have the fixes available now

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Hi. I've been going around the public bugzilla for the last couple of days, wontfixing/assigning a bunch of bugs for Fremantle - I'll try to do more if I have the time - so perhaps I should also comment here.

Yes, assigned for Fremantle also means wontfix for Diablo, unless it's absolutely system critical. Yes, in many cases the fix in Fremantle is caused by Fremantle doing something different than Diablo, so on some cases it is hard to say between fixed and wontfix. I tried to do those judgments based on the whether the user need/feature in question that the bug addresses will be improved in Fremantle or now.

If the general consensus really is that it would be better for me to just set "Wontfix -> Diablo" instead of indicating that if the issues will be addressed in Fremantle (or in Harmattan) in some cases, please then comment. I personally assumed that it's of some ... aid to know that the issue in question will eventually get addressed or not, even though not in terms of a new Diablo release.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Since some people are speaking of Mer here, I'd like to do a little advertising:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint#Contributing_to_Mer

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Yes, of course it's somehow nice to know Fremantle will fix it. Better than nothing to hope for at all. ;)

Still, this can be communicated in the comment when closing the bug.

See, when I actually *read* the bug, the information is the same, no matter which status you use for closing it. I read the last comments and see what's going on.
The point is that when I only follow things via the bugjar for example, I'm always happy how many bugs are being fixed lately and how wonderful and great the next SSU for Diablo will be... until I find out.
So for these kind of things WONTFIX is more useful; you can click and read why it won't be fixed and then there'll be a comment saying the situation will improve with Fremantle.

As a side note, I find this admittedly small issue so irritating partly because what actually bugs me is

1. the fact that it will not be closed for Diablo (which I don't quite understand) and
2. the growing suspicion that I'll never see Fremantle on my N800.

I had all this before with my 770, and now history might be repeating itself. My head tells me this time maybe there are very good reasons for it (which I still can't see for the 770-disaster), but my heart says it's just not fair and I want my share of happiness here and now. So I just keep whining about everything that's remotely connected to this whole backward compatibility thing...

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Hmm, so that's two of us diehards. How comforting :-)

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

i guess that if we could agree that the "fixed in fremantle" tag would only be used on bugs that come out of a ground up rewrite that would require solid efforts to get working on diablo, then things would calm down.

basically, the community is not told the context of the fix, and is left wonder if it was a simple one liner or some kind of whole-sale replacement of the problematic system.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

No, because that's not how Bugzilla works. Now, please, stop trying to make everybody's lives more difficult by breaking the system, thanks.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

As to the argument about "embedded" vs. "desktop", I absolutely don't buy it. There's nothing conceptually different between my laptop running Debian and my N800 running, for all practical purposes, a Debian derivative.

The NIT series are not embedded devices by any definition, period. Some drivers are closed, but that doesn't make it embedded - if so my desktop computer would be an embedded device, with its NVIDIA graphical driver.

So yes, I expect a software update regime quite similar to a desktop system update regime, and not an embedded update regime.

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

Then you seriously don't understand the platform. :)

Ask the Deblet guys exactly how much of a difference there is (I'd start with: "How many hours idle battery life do you get?").

Re: "Fixed in Fremantle"
 

so maybe laptop rather then desktop ;)

anyways, i had a look at the number of bugs with milestone fremantle.

and the ones that i found most puzzling was the ones that looked like simple ui tweaks, like the size of dialog windows and so on.

these are bumped on to fremantle with no clear explanation why, unlike something like media player being able to remember where in a file it was closed, where the fremantle message holds a explanation as to why it was moved (rework of the media framework or something similar).