Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

and there are ... but you are talking about hardware ... not software ...

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

How strange. I don't know too much about the financial side of software/licensing etc.. But I would assume that if you had 2 identical pieces of hardware, but one had Symbian running on it and one had Maemo, the latter would be cheaper...? Of course Nokia now owns Symbian completely so once again, would this not affect the total price of a handset?
Ha, I can definately say I've not heard that one before!

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

An interesting conclusion to jump to, though not one backed up by a whole lot of evidence. Remember, RX-51 doesn't have the same carrier expenses as a real cellphone, and, besides, several Nokia representatives have repeatedly stated their intention to keep the next tablet inline price-wise with previous generations.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Generally yes, although software can be licensed for free even though its proprietary. Open source generally implies unrestricted use and ability to make modifications. And remember maemo is not completely open source, although open in many ways that foster sw development. But we are talking about a niche product here in the NIT and so there are many other factors affecting price. Since Symbian is licensed to other OEMs, and maemo is not, that probably affects the price. IOW, there are no competitive devices that also run maemo, but there are competitive phones that run Symbian.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Open source is free as in beer when you grab what others have done and integrate it as is. Which is not the case of Maemo, where a lot of OSS features and bugfixes are developed, funded, integrated and tested by Nokia.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Ahhh, yeah that makes sense :o

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Why not?

That's interesting! Where? Can you post a link?

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Because it doesn't have voice? This one should be pretty clear.

Here, from the Summit, and elsewhere. I don't have links handy.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Clear to you; I suspect the carriers will be less clear on the subject.

[citation needed]

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Voice adds another layer of certification requirements. These certifications cost money, which shows up in the cost of the device. . . .

Take it or leave it, I don't have the time to dig up the quotes at the moment.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

[citation needed]



That's too bad. Guess I'll have to say you're wrong then.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

What, you want me to pull up the FCC requirements for voice certification?

[Citation needed] :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Well, show me evidence that it costs more to get "certifications" for 3G modems that provide voice + data, as opposed to 3G modems that provide data only. You can't tell me that you can say, "my intent is to only use this for data," and the FCC will say, "ok, then, you get the special data-only reduced rate," if the hardware for both is the same.

Well, I say it's going to be more expensive than previous maemo devices. This just makes sense; the hardware specs are significantly higher. They're adding a nice camera and a 3G modem, and probably not taking away any of the stuff already in the current generation of tablets.

You are vaguely appealing to authority, but then you can't cite the authority. The burden of proof is yours, so until you can provide that proof, I win.

By the way, I really want to lose this. I don't want to pay $500+ for the m5.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

If they make more devices the money it takes to make one decreases.

Hardware becomes cheaper over time, so that they aren't taking anything away doesn't mean that this costs the same; it probably costs cheaper in 2009. So you don't know if the OMAP3 with RAM and blahblah costs the same, less, or more as when they manufactured the OMAP2 with RAM and blahblah. So that part is moot.

Nevertheless, you have a point because a 3G modem, high quality camera, new OS all are new, and do cost a considerable amount of money more (based on other devices which do have these features added). Still, these prices go down too, and how this would add to the price is not clear.

Does HSPA provide seperate channels for phone and data? I thought GSM is for mobile phone, and 3G is for data. If thats true, then a HSPA chip not supporting GSM would be OK...

I bought a E51 today (for PIM, phone, and 3G). If I like the N97 a lot I will buy it and sell my E51. Else, I keep my E51 and consider to buy the new M5 because I can put off my data plan monthly (which is good cause it costs only 10 EUR a month, max speed, while the FUP & its known limit is acceptable for me; Vodafone BloX ftw). But both N97 and M5 seems overkill... still, warms me, to see Symbian and Nokia heading to this direction... :)

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

We all want to lose this, but it ain't gonna happen that way.

Faster processor, 3D chip, extra row of keys on the keyboard, bigger battery, and so on. But even more so because the tablet is not a mass market product like the N97, so the development costs must be amortized over a smaller number of devices.

I'm reminded of what Steve Jobs said when asked recently whether Apple might still launch a tablet. He said, dismissively "We've looked into it, and we couldn't find a way to produce anything for under $500 that wouldn't be crap". I take this to mean "Yes, we're going to produce a tablet, and you can be sure it's going to cost way over $500".

Nevertheless, if Nokia releases an awesome device it will sell well. You only need to look at how many people are buying UMPCs and MIDs in the $750 to $1000 price range.

Roger

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

The next Maemo-based Nokia device will be more popular, or at the very least, aimed at a more segments therefore potentially getting more customers. Stage 4 IIRC.

The iPhone is basically a tablet albeit with some (serious) restrictions here and there. The difference between a camera, smartphone, DAP, tablet, and netbook will become more vague and vague. Only dedicated high-end solutions will survive. For the rest, a combination (convergence) device will usually be 'good enough' for most people.

The iPod and iPhone are Apple's tablets. The cheapest Macbook is their netbook. Apple cannot compete with the cheap netbooks, and they won't bother to either.

If I were Apple I would look into something like e-book readers, or solar energy.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Clearly, this I was not disputing. I [i]was addressing the assertion that the next tablet would cost more than the N97 ($700 USD), which I don't believe to be remotely true based both on past comments by Nokia employees and based on the featureset of each device. You seem to be arguing that it'll be more expensive than $500 USD, and seem to think I'm arguing that it wont be—which I'm not.

My own estimate puts it into the $450-$600 USD range, much less than $700 USD, but likely more than $500 USD.

Well, what I think we've actually come down to is that we're mostly in agreement, just having one argument over two vastly different price points. :)

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

I'm sorry, that wasn't clear from your post:

A $550 device will not be "in line price-wise with previous generations" of maemo devices.

I'll accept your estimate of "up to $600" for the m5. That seems to be a strong possibility, even if it is not in line with previous NITs.

(I still would like you to take a moment and provide citations for your assertions)

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

You've got to be kidding me. It's that easy to do an end run around the (supposed) costs and certifications required for mobile voice devices? It seems to me that, if this were true, the carriers would all be taking advantage of this and selling handsets that used the ostensibly data-only standards to do voice. Wouldn't that be cheaper for them?

I don't get this.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

The MSRP for the wimax edition N810 is $479 and wimax chips are supposedly much cheaper than GSM/HSDPA radios. All things considered the price point will probably be around $599.
The 5800 tube has an MSRP of around 279 Euros and that has all the same connectivity as the N79 but a lower spec camera (3.2 mp which I think is fine for 99% of purposes without a xenon flash) and no keyboard.
So it basically comes down to what Nokia want to achieve with the Maemo 5 device. They can aim at a bigger market with a price point of around USD$399 or shoot for the high end market at around USD$650.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

All phones (to my knowledge) that have 3G also support EDGE and GPRS connections which is a separate radio on GSM. In the US just by observing my 3G indication waiver between EDGE and 3.5G in the middle of NYC I would hate to have just a 3G radio without a fall back to EDGE.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

It was quite clear if you had payed attention to the post I was responding to:

The N810 was $479 at launch, that's not a huge difference. There's no point quibbling over degrees, though. . . .

After my Maemo-filled afternoon and evening . . . not bloody likely (it's been non-stop for the past 4 hours). Find it yourself or wait for somebody else to. <_<

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

The data and voice are independent in HDPA. GSM is considered 2G and HSDPA is 3G backward compatible to 2G.

It's not as easy as just popping in a new radio chip. There are an awful lot of codecs, handoff algorithms, etc., in 3G that have to be present and supported by suitable drivers. Evidently, its basically a severe retrofit to get this to work with a linux kernel and not easy to do. I think Nokia (and others) are working hard on it thought.

As for the carriers, VoIP over the 3G data channel is much less efficient than separate voice channel with its dedicated codecs, etc. Aside from device costs, it wouldn't be cheaper for them because of the network management issues.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

I seriously hope the n900 supports voice and data, otherwise for my use it's a complete waste of money, and I'm getting excited about buying it!
At the moment I have to carry around a phone and my tablet, if I still have to carry around both, what is the point?

It's not like VOIP on 3G is going to be cheaper than phone calls, as that would mean it would use less bandwidth - in which case the phone companies would have already done this surely?

If it didn't support it when it came out and they added this a couple of months later I'd still buy it as soon as it comes out.

Tell me it ain't true!

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

With "just larger" I mean exactly this. It is not very likely either but I would like to have that option - a super convergence device with 4.x inch capacitive touch screen and maemo os. And this would be more expensive for trivial reasons...

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Do you mean HS*PA? As in, HSDPA and HSUPA?

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Big Business (telcos) meets Big Bureaucracy (FCC) and you expect anyone involved to pick the cheaper route?!


I don't really know this stuff, but I am rather skeptical of the notion that the silicon will be incapable of voice. I'm not sure what effect that will have on certification, but inability (even from firmware) to make GSM calls can't hurt and may help.

But next-generation systems (HSPA+) will be all-IP capable, so the telcos are actually headed that direction, if not necessarily for this reason.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

That was quick! I can't really determine anything. Hard to say they are widgets in any way uniquely drawn from NIT and not just generic J2ME widgets. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widget_engine
What I found unique about the homescreen widgets in the NIT was that they were movable about the screen and easily selected on or off by the user, and I can't tell that from the N97 video.

There really isn't enough there for me to say how much "scheme and programme" there is. And I have to say I am not familiar with the Tube, so I just don't know at this point.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

Well if you see the original post there's a link to a video demonstration that I put there, you can get a pretty good idea of the interface from that video (it's the quicktime movie) :)

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

And here I thought that I was the only professional philosopher around here. Boy o boy do informal fallacies warm my cockles!

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

I think nokia may be had a chance if they shipped N97 now instead of 5800 express music. and I definately agree that hight screen resolution is best part of N810 and I'd loved to see an upgrade to at least 1024x720 and 5"screen and still got low weightree that screen res. that would a real compitetor in the market.

Re: Nokia N97 Announced
 

I was only fighting fire with fire. :D