Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

If the Nokia designer refers to me, I'd like to say that the Apple UI has many great features in it. Also the Palm Pre has good features, as does the Google Android design... Even the S60 Touch UI has some nice features. A whole host of devices. I can find good things from nearly any device/design, digging hard enough.

Harri Kiljander spoke in the Maemo Summit 2008 about the future direction for the UI, and spoke about the UI's going towards touch, and finger touch. Don't shoot the messenger. :) As with any changes there are people that don't like them. It's good, it's cool to raise those concerns. I love discussing them.

From my personal perspective the current UI's on the N810 are nowhere near on the level of being "good enough" that I would be scared of changing them, even drastically if necessary. If the current devices would have sold millions and millions and their UI's would have been praised universally, then there would be much more hesistance towards change, I'm sure of that. Popularity is a practical measure for success.

Then again, to me it's... odd that to say that you can know that you won't like the changes before even seeing them. There can be great touch UI's and poor touch UI's, just as there are great and poor non-touch UI's.

If somebody feels that no touch UI can be great, then I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. If somebody feels that you can do both at the same time on the same device, get the best of both worlds, based on my experience I say that it isn't so... But that's a great topic for discussion, it's not a given or an absolute fact.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

@frank.wagner: That's the same CPU core the OMAP3 will have. Looks impressive doesn't it?

@daperl: Some laptops have HSPA modems too these days: That doesn't make them phones.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

And those will be supported, if they are in the devices. So everything is cool. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

... I think there is potential in that idea (qgil note this also).

It's a really interesting idea, actually. I at least would be very interested in seeing what it would bring up, although there are many practical questions there to be solved. We are already doing things like lead user workshops.

Sounds almost like a topic for another thread, have to think about this.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Then maybe the bulk of this debate has been over semantics. :p

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It does seem that way!

Maybe we could get Buglabs together with Nokia to have a modular device. That way you could pick and choose / plug 'n play the iinput that you prefer. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The Lego approach-- I love it! :D

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I have just enough airline miles to come visit Finland again in the off-season (hint hint). :D

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Only if your aim was to be popular.

If you aimed for quality, popularity is no measure at all. (Not that popularity is an indication of low quality - it simply doesn't tell anything about it.)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Alas, some of us don't know what is in any upcoming devices, and may be overestimating the role the UI team has in ordaining hardware features, and/or the extent to which your opinions as posted here match said team's official work. (This is not meant as a request for info about any internal conflicts that may or may not be present -- just an acknowledgement that there are uncertainties here, and that many of us are arguing as though they're stacked against our position.)

From Texrat's take, (since he's "on our side", and has insider knowledge of at least the next tablet), I infer what I'd strongly suspected all along: the next tablet, at least, will still have a dpad. So I guess we can resume our pleasant flamewar after the RX-51 is out, when next our discussion turns to hardware speculation. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I like touch UI, but I don't like the Apple UI. And I don't like embedded eye candy - where selecting an item launches an unavoidable three layer translucent 3D animation that looks pretty but accomplishes nothing. I haven't said that I won't like the NIT UI changes, but I am concerned that we may go past the point of no return if there is an all-touch UI and no support for the auxiliary HW keys.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Hmmm... maybe Bluetooth remote control pod, like Wii remote... so if/when you need hardware buttons just pick that pod in hand and there you go... Great to remote control that MP3-player in pocket while jogging in treadmill...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The n800 has 12 buttons and a touch screen. Let's, for arguments sake, say that I've used my n800 as an "internet device" for 8 hours a day for a year and I still think it's excellent (not perfect) and there's currently nothing else out there that I would replace it with. Also during that time period let's say that my friends and I took the opportunity to share and sample each other's mobile technology and also other mobile technology offerings. So, for me, I think it's odd that you think something's odd. I've poked and I've prodded and I've rejected. I don't see why you're so perplexed.

As others have alluded to before, usage can have 3 equally important modes, even if these modes change rapidly:

• external buttons only
• stylus only
• external buttons and stylus in concert

So, agreeing to disagree is all good, just to the point where you remove my 12 buttons. Then, not so good. :)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Careful with interpretations of my posts wrt to the RX-51 device. Yes, I have seen its data sheet and the only thing I've shared from that is something along the lines of "WOW" and "hee hee hee". Don't assume there is or isn't a d-pad based on my posts.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

continuation of auxiliary hardware input, and that could certainly be a trackball (I like them too) or even the often-requested scrolling slider. Or any number of variations.Well, that is unexpected good news. A thousand thanks! :D:D:D

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Ah! Stupid me-- THANKS Mara!

I had completely forgotten one of my other suggestions: support for add-on input devices. Bluetooth is certainly one viable mode, and so is usb.

I had envisioned a tablet that supports a slide-on sleeve with buttons for gaming. THAT would be my ideal solution. With that approach one form factor (if properly designed) could support infinite configurations.

Win-win-win.

After all, look at (again) Nintendo's success in that area...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Wrong! It accomplishes something: hiding the delay from starting programs/loading data. This makes users think their device is responding faster. And for consistency's sake, you apply it everywhere, even for those things without substantial delay.

And that's the sort of junk that UI experts specialize in, leading me to conclude that the less UI experts are involved with a project, the more usable it will be.
^ General statement ^ (Not intended as a diss on Ragnar or Maemo UI.)
Something like this, but BT?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

This is the sort of thing that happens when no UI experts are involved:
http://xwinman.org/screenshots/fvwm95.gif

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Remember not all hardware keyboards are equal...

For me it is impossible to do serious console or chat on a Nokia E51 with a keypad or (hypothetically) a device with virtual keyboard such as N800 or a Sharp Zaurus SL C1000 with a bad hardware keyboard.

With Nokia E71 and Nokia N810 I can do it.

This is a core aspect of UI designing: testing the UI out on users. Although usually happens with mockups or much later, after the design. Err, I mean, after internal testing when developers get a preview :p

We discussed this elsewhere.

Once my tablet has 32 GB SD it will become my MP3 player replacing my Iriver H340.

But it is not as if this is a necessary for most people, and its not as if I really need all those GBs. They're part of lazyness.

I bought the N810 for its GPS (a mistake) and hardware keyboard (a sound choice; especially as compliment to phone or replacement for laptop).

Perhaps one has to realize there are different hardware demands. Differentiate them in various groups which make sense and serve different types of groups. However, do not assume people buy both devices.

Uh, nope. You're forgetting finger.

Fremantle will be optimized for finger instead of stylus.

Because else you have half-baked design decisions.

Windows NT/GNOME is of no concern in these comparisons because they are not mobile embedded UI.

Why are you sure.

Why? How big %?

People tend to work around them sooner or later; e.g. jailbreaking. Costs time and effort though.

We see this phenomenom at large? Please, some references.

Sure. Some people only want a phone to phone and SMS with.

In any case, I do not deny that a hardware_key device can be sufficient or can be good. I assert a finger-based touchscreen device can be good, but it is not something you like to hear or are even able to imagine, it seems.

You give up very quickly. I say: allow callibration of fingers.

As for choice, perhaps some device like N800, relatively cheap, with new hardware (OMAP3) but without fancy HD camera or HSPA. But then again, you MUST have a stylus mode. You MUST optimize your GUI for stylus usage.

Several changes in UI in OS200x were stylus and finger-related changes.

It merely means not everyone is suitable for every device. Not every body type is made for swimming, hiking or marathon. While a hiker can run a marathon, he'll never be good at it because it isn't his quality; even after much training.

It only has to if you want to support both a stylus optimized UI and a finger optimized UI.

Zoom in/out are hardware keys for, and double click already zooms in and out. Try it in Fennec. The other options, minus opening new tab, is not something I like to do when I'm on tablet so it should be hidden away or not be part of feature set at all. Less is sometimes more.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Thank you, this is what I needed to bring home my point.

The question for Nokia has never been how the n900 will communicate, but what purpose it should have. Things at this forum went as far as a Nokia-sponsored poll as to what to call this next device. So here's what I think:

This type of device, the "internet tablet", is having an identity crises as it's being squashed between netbooks and really smart phones. Before the netbook came out, this "internet tablet" was a good distance away (price and size) from tablets (you know, those swiveling things) and it looked like there was a future. Now, throw in some netbooks, some really smart phones and some vaporware like Pandora and the spectrum smears immediately. These MID's or "internet tablet's" have now been forced to run to the best non-overlapping corner they can find: the "multi-media internet thingy" (the Archos 5 ilk). Gross.

So, for foot print, here's what we've got in order of size and power:

laptops
tablets (swiveling things)
netbooks (some now swiveling)
MID's, "internet tablets", "multi-media internet thingys", whatever
really smart phones
smart phones
phones

And for wireless communication protocols in these devices, here's what we've got in order of ubiquity:

GSM
CDMA
HSPA
WiMAX (not really)
WiFi
Bluetooth

Nokia is a phone company. They're doing exactly what they're suppose to be doing: finding a solid home for their phones. They were able to take "internet tablet" chances when netbooks, really smart phones and other "multi-media internet thingys" didn't exist, but that gadgetscape is gone, and all that is left for them to do is compete in the really smart phone market. I get it; but I'm a geek, and thus, I don't like it. F*ck, I'm back cheering-on the Pandora. But without a cash infusion they seem doomed. My stupid fantasy is that Mark Shuttleworth would find himself bored today and help them out.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I love my mac-mini IR remote; throw in some Bluetooth and the 6 buttons could control plenty.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It indeed gives the user a warm feeling.

It also tells the user the device is still alive, working for the user. A reason why progressbars are useful.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Oh dude, that's a winner. The sleeve would have an extra primo stand of course.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

@daperl: What makes you think the next tablet will be closer to a phone than an "MID/MMIT (MultiMedia Internet Thingy"? Many other MIDs are featuring a finger oriented UI and 3G connectivity of some sort. And from where I'm sitting, Fremantle (Maemo 5) looks like a more open system than Diablo/Chinook (Maemo 4). I really don't understand all this doom and gloom just because Nokia wants to make some UI tweaks in their software and add an HSPA modem...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

But launch feedback is, and has been for years, displayed in non-blocking ways on many other platforms (including progress bars). The only advantage I see for full-screen fixed-duration animations over these is that the non-blocking indicators actually indicate -- they show you that you are waiting for some long operation to complete, and that makes the device feel slower.

When everything has the same lag, and a uniform visual distraction is used as cover, efficiency is lost, but users (especially those who don't know/care what goes on under the hood) will not have a perception that the device is slow.

To me, this is a bad trade-off, as I want to use a device, so reality matters. Manufacturers, alas, have a strong incentive to make this trade, because they want to sell devices, so perception matters.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Maybe my hardware comments have become noise with all the UI stuff flying around, but I don't care about software. I only care about internal and external hardware offerings. And the press can call the device whatever the f*ck they want. If my hardware requirements are met, I have high confidence that there will be the minimum required software there to support it. I'll take care of the rest. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Darn you, qole, I had a reply ready! :D :p

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Possibly. Maybe even an extra SD slot, to pop games in and out.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Oh man, don't even start. This is too good. You're derailing the minimal train of thought I already had. Thanks for nothin'.

[huddling] 'Okay, okay. Everybody listen up. A Beagle Board is 3"x3". Texrat, you go left. I'll go right. I'll hit you somewhere down the middle. We'll call it, "Anesidora." Everybody got it? On 4. Ready, break!'

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

:) This isn't as big a concern now :) *


*As long the N810 owners keep Craves1 happy then maybe he'd make an upgrade for the N9xx) ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Sorry, but are you smoking something? Nokia have a responsibility to aim for popularity: higher popularity == more device sales == higher profits.

Now, there are many mechanisms for delivering popularity: including balancing quality, cost, development time, release date.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I'd even be willing to go with DaPerlodora.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Thanks for reminding me again why it would be better to get my hardware and software/OS from different providers.

As a user I also have my own set of priorities...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Quoting the original context:In context, I think the point is valid. Nokia was not aiming for popularity with the existing devices (the whole step-n-of-5 deal), so the fact they didn't attain it is not reflective of poor success of the current UI.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

If only there were a delete button on my real life comments, too.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

qole, blame it on the absinthe

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Can we agree that Ragnar highly regards the iPhone? I would further guess that his respect is both inside and out. And I will go one step further that he would have Nokia duplicate it if he/they could. Big ifs, I know. But that's how his posts read to me. Anyway, if all that were true and forgetting a stow-away keyboard for a second, my 12 buttons would go to 4 (home, power and +/- volume on the iPhone). So to call 12-down-to-4 "some UI tweaks in their software" would be misleading and false. As would calling my skepticism doom-and-gloom. Again, only if I'm guessing correctly. Nokia should just say something new here.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It was in the context of why people around me had opted for the N800 versus the N810 when they had an opportunity to get either. There's no assumption involved--just a statement of fact from what they stated to me. I did, however, also neglect to mention that by the time the N810 was out, the N800 was also much cheaper in most places.. and that was also a factor that was mentioned by these folks but it was also indicated to me as ultimately not being a deciding factor for the choice. For those folks that decided not to upgrade from an N800, the price was never even a factor.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Nah. Thoughtful, but too busy. I think I've got; it has the right number of syllables and it's inline with "doing the opposite": Costanza. And yes, it will have a touch-pad with braille-friendly inserts on the battery cover.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I had, at one time, set up the Wiimote to control my Nokia remotely. I mapped out the buttons so that could pretty much do everything with it, too. Something like that without the mess of vomiting a tar file all over my root directory would be nice as a start. :)

If a dedicated dpad with controls was made just for the Nokia and it was supported properly, it would be absolutely perfect. Especially nice if it was small and convenient so that I can just tuck away the N800 in a large pocket somewhere like, say, in my backpack and then just keep a teeny remote in my front pocket. This would be great for wired headphones.

...wired! But wait! What about us bluetooth headphone people? Don't most of these headphones ALREADY have a few controls? Aren't they already RIGHT THERE on my oversized, meaty human head? How about the OS just sorta SUPPORT them so that app writers can USE them? :)