Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

The "maemo" usage is a good example of how programmers (as opposed to regular people -- joke!) treat language.

Maemo, to some programmers, means one thing and one thing only. In fact, maemo means what people are using it to mean, not what it once meant. That's what I mean by shorthand.

In order to communicate effectively with people, you need to figure out how they are using words and deal with them on that basis. In order to write a program effectively, you need to refer to the rule book and stick strictly to its specifications.

This is why tablet users should have a site of their own like this one, not one dominated by a bunch of specialists who have special rules and preconceptions.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

> The "maemo" usage is a good example

It's also a good example of anal retentiveness at it's worst.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I'm a programmer. Maybe not a great one, or a super experienced one, but am one.

GeneralAntilles' comment was not prototypical of programmers, it was prototypical of GeneralAntilles.

I said the "Maemo website". That would be equal to someone saying the "Microsoft website", and being "corrected" because Microsoft is a corporation, microsoft.com is the website. Or saying the "NFL website" and be "corrected" because the NFL is an American Professional Sports League while nfl.com is the website.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

It is, though I suspect we're not all working with the same definition of "end user", "power user", and the like.

To accompany the release of the Maemo 5 lead device, Nokia is working on a new user site. I expect it will replace and improve upon both Tableteer and the OS2008 User Site. And, just as past tablets have included various pointers to Tableteer and the OS2008 User Site, new devices will ship with pointers to this new Nokia site--not to maemo.org.

New and, I dunno, casual users will be able to read about, and click install links for, additional games, utilities, and other add on software on the new Nokia site. There will also be basic guides, tips, and tricks, I imagine. Some of the content--the best ranked apps from Extras and their reviews, for instance--will really be pulled in from maemo.org, but users of Nokia's new user site won't know or care.

At the same time, Nokia is expanding the channels it uses to interact with, and support, its commercial Symbian developers to also support commercial Maemo developers. Wage slaves who do Maemo nine to five will find Maemo resources equivalent to what commercial Symbian developers have had for years.

Fitting in between and around those two Nokia efforts will be maemo.org. It's being updated to make it more friendly to end users, but it's still not going to be for the guy who pulls his new Maemo 5 device from the box and thinks, "Boy, all this thing needs is a Bejeweled clone." That's Nokia's user site. maemo.org will be for anyone who wants to step beyond what Nokia provides there.

And no, "stepping beyond" doesn't necessarily mean programming whole new apps, becoming a command line goddess, or any of the stuff many people seem to associate with "power users". Sure, those folks are welcome, and maemo.org will hold resources for them, but as I see it, we all buy and use a frighteningly large number of products in our modern, daily lives, and anyone who chooses to devote some of their precious free time to becoming a participant in a web forum for a particular product has moved beyond being an average, casual user of that product. They've become an active, participating member of the community, and maemo.org is for them too.

The Community Council represents all of the maemo.org users, from forum denizens, to theme makers, to wiki editors, to bug reporters, to programmers, to whomever. They're not a governing body, and they have no power over those they are elected to represent. They're a funnel, collecting issues from the community, organizing improvements to maemo.org accordingly, and presenting clear ideas from the community to Nokia. They're expected to attend regular meetings on IRC, but there's nothing stopping other community members from also attending.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

What? No!

We'll see about that when my storm troopers move in!

Mwahahahah!

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

The subject of the topic has moved on, but... I went with "Other" because -- due to various reasons -- I haven't been able to devote much time to development or these forums lately, so I thought I was out of touch and should not vote. <_<

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

geneven,

This may be your impression, but it's wrong... There are several user-prompted initiatives that the Council has/can/will fight for concerning future development of Maemo devices. If you think that there is something important that these devices needs to achieve, you can either (a) take it directly to Nokia (which may or may not be heard), or (b) ask the Council to take it to Nokia (which will definitely be heard). I'm not saying that anything we say will come to pass, but it really is a good start.

Likewise, users can always open bug reports and feature requests at bugs.maemo.org. If this is the case, the Council is constantly trolling there in order to suggest priorities to Nokia.

I see that I'm responding a few pages short of the current end of this thread, so someone may have already responded to this, but I feel that it is important for NIT users to understand that we are your advocates. Don't assume that we aren't trying to figure out what's best for the future of Maemo. Also, don't assume that we can do this without you.

Tim

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

You are right saying that the Council is not directly representative of the Maemo user base. It is an approximation, just like any body elected. Note that ITt is not fully representative either, it is again an approximation based on the most vocal and involved users.

Actually users have an influence that is much bigger than the Maemo community council and ITt. Users talk here and in maemo.org, but they talk as much and more through the retailers, the customer care lines, the surveys, the focused groups, the market studies... And they talk with their purchases, as many people point out here.

So yes, having a competent community council backed by a significant amount of engaged users is very useful for both sides. But hopefully nobody thinks that the destiny of Maemo will depend on who has been elected in the council, how many have voted or what is the URL and theme of this forum.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

A couple of phrases have emerged in the above useful (for me) discussion.

"They've become an active, participating member of the community"

and I think the other was "engaged user".

Great, but what makes me blush and wince about the whole Linux community, and this community is similar to that group, is what happens to the vast array of clueless users, NOT engaged users.

Who is the spokesperson for them? I don't think they have one, yet the huge, overwhelming ultramajority of users are in this category. They are the ones who, when you say they need to switch directories, wait patiently for instructions on how to do so.

Someone enlightened said that that is what the Nokia forums are for. No, the Nokia forums are (a) pretty much worthless, and (b) for selling products, and (c) for giving you the impression that you should buy a tablet, and if you have a tablet, that you should tell your friends to buy one.

This is a place to tell newbies the truth, without really caring about Nokia products -- a place where, if everyone were to decide that the iPhone really WAS the ultimate gadget, a lot of people would say so. Yes, we are prejudiced in favor of Nokia products, but we are not serfs bound to them. We have moved from serfdom to surfing.

The new environment seems to be heavily populated with people who like ranks and hierarchy -- people want "karma points," and want to be rewarded with labels like "moderator" and "community leader".

But the only way the momentum is going to swing away from Windows products ...

Oh well, you've already decided -- have fun.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Read the post above yours, then get back to us.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Doesn't being a spokesperson automatically make you an active, participating, engaged user (or member of the community)? I can't figure out how somebody could become a spokesperson or have whatever role in a community without being active/engaged/...

The point is to make those who don't want to take part so actively (99,99%) understand that they can - if they want - vote for somebody they trust and then forget about the whole thing again for 6 months. This way they can still be "users only" but have their voices heard. (If the ones they voted for deserved their trust.)

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I also think it's worth mentioning that, in general, this "huge, overwhelming ultramajority of [disengaged] users" are not posting, reading or even aware of websites or fora devoted to their device.

They're represented by consumer protection legislation, assisted by Nokia support and aren't aware there's a community; let alone a community council.

Anyone reading this forum is engaged, whether they're technically literate/care about the community/vote or not. It's just a matter of degree (which karma partially captures).

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

One more point, because you used the word "literate" (this is getting more and more off topic now, anyway):
Let's not forget that whatever is discussed here refers to those who read and write English well enough to participate.

I don't have statistics at hand, but I'd roughly guess that while 100% of the people i know manage to order a beer and a burger in English when abroad, only 30% would be able to read this forum (=find help and useful information here) and only 5%-10% would be able to actively participate.

This is relevant if we discuss the "how representative is this community and its council?"-topic: Markets are different in each country, consumers react differently, and an online community that uses English only will never represent the needs of all users worldwide, simply because too many participants from English speaking territories distort the image.

So we find that the people here on ITT and on maemo.org are only a subset of active and engaged users. You may have folks blogging about their tablets in Italian or gathering in whatever Spanish forum we never heard of... And we can't help it. We'll have to take what's there, do what's feasible. Then, in the future, find mechanisms to invite those who want to participate, but don't speak English. Which will make the community and its council more representative, but still will not help with those who just happily browse the web with their tablets and never even think of going to a forum. They are, as you say, bound to use other feedback channels.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I did read the post above mine. If you read mine, you will see that I quoted the phrase "engaged user" -- where do you think I got that phrase? I got it from the post above mine.

The users I am worried about are NOT engaged users. They are just regular, low-octane users. The post above mine focuses on "engaged users".

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Why didn't I vote? Nobody asked me. The reason probably is that I have only posted something like like 17 posts since Jan 2006. This doesn't qualify me for the honor. I do however visit internettablettalk quite often without logging in.

Perhaps the Council should aim to have part of its members drawn from the unwashed masses of users. If a newbie writes a post and gets a perfunctory search the forums first, they would have my vote ... but of course I don't get a vote.

You might want to seek membership from folks who are interested in using their devices, but may not be an advanced user, developer, or not someone who posts a lot.

I can see why Nokia is interested in having the face of the community to talk to -- but unless the majority of the community gets a say in the council, or the council is drawn from a representative cross-section of users, it doesn't seem to be representative, and given enough time may tend towards elitism.

The Zaurus community never had a Community Council -- maybe because Sharp ditched the users early on -- but it has been able to still be a more or less vibrant community over the years.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

My perception of all of this conversation must be edging on insanity, because... When I bought my first NIT, I was just an average user who wanted a new device to replace my stolen iPod. After using it for a couple of days, I discovered itT. After a couple of days on itT, I discovered maemo.org. And, the rest is history (i.e., I'm not an "engaged user."). My 'insanity' must come from thinking that anyone who buys one of these things and doesn't, at some point, become an "engaged user," must not really care about the future of the device. So... Make your own judgments there.

(Yes, I'm just pontificating. I know that this isn't going to always be the case.)

Tim

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Evidently you didn't read it closely enough, then. Here's the relevant paragraph:

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I did not vote because I feel I ve been not on the tablet boat for enough time. Is like living in a country for enough time, you have to gain your rights.
I missed to follow all the maemo meetings, the evolution of the tablets philosopy, the probal painfull progressive obsolencence of 770,n800 and now the n810, each new os released.
I joined pretty late the family (end of 2008) and the hype around new maemo5 and new tablet is always being high. My 1st and only OS is diablo and will probably be the last
I like to learn a device and have to deal with hw/sw limits and manufacter choices. I dont stop playing with the actual hardware (and os) just because (maybe) in the future another piece of hardware will 'solve' everything :).
A lot of works being done on tablets and ITT is a great source for nearly everything I need to keep doing my s*its. Im not an OS guy (I think the os should be as minimal as it can and should be ROCK SOLID) so im not really involved in OS developings, Im not a linux guy,opensourceobsessed philisopher, so the (amazing) stunts to bring ubuntu,mer,debian dont really appeal me. Im not a gadgeeter follower so what happen outside is preatty meanless (android,iphones, window mobile, palm,palm???? :) ) just inspirational source of ideas; im not a marketing freak, i cant care less of articialy build hype, wacky laserlight show on tittis in latex or follow random speechs of douche designers and mamagers (lucky seem there are not so many in Finland but they have imported someone from the rest of the world).
I dont have any real reason to use a tablet, I cant use for my job, I dont have a budget to buy next tablet (s*it i dont even have the budget to buy any decent n60 device to replace my dying motorola).
I can't see any good reason to vote the council since Im the worste customer and community member Nokia and Maemo could aspire to have.
One request i have would be to have access at every documents/manual/file nokia have about the hardware and software of the N810 (god how I loved the old computer/tv manuals with the componets schemes...)
Anyone in the council insanily brave enough to ask this to Nokia for me?

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

There's a (low) barrier of entry to vote. Anyone who really cares enough is able to with very little effort. There has to be a line somewhere, but it doesn't mean anyone below that line doesn't have overlapping interests with those above.

And, to re-iterate, the council was not dreamt of - nor conceived by - Nokia. I hope, however, they see this self-organisation by the community as something which has been beneficial.

With whom would the council commune in a community with no leadership (or corporate overlord)?

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

What's a Community Council, and why should I care?

Seriously?

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

The Council is 5 people that visit these forums and talk to Nokia about what's important to people like you and me based on what we say here in the forums.

So, you should care because it's kind of neat that Nokia allows us the opportunity to communicate with/influence(?) them in this way, and because, in theory, it should be more effective than complaining to a customer support person or sending them an e-mail or filling out an online survey.

(perhaps an explanatory sentence or 2 like this could be sent with the next voting invitation e-mail, to prevent confusion and encourage people (like rcsteiner) to vote.)

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Well, the surveys and Nokia Care calls are really more effective in aggregate than the Council. The Council's great for community issues, but users are really better served by user channels.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

The fact of having a council helps e.g. moving maemo.org to community ownership, having a Maemo Summit in the terms wished by the community, having the maemo.org team wished by the community, having a succesful Mer project, organizing the Fremantle unstable releases and having all in all a better understanding from Nokia and the community about what is going on and what are the topics that really need discussion.

You could do all this without a council, but the fact of having 5 elected members trusted to find consensus and a single voice when needed is very helpful. No call center or customers survey will provide an equivalent.

The council plays no major role when it comes to have a d-pad here or there, a full PIM suite, soft-poweroff put upfront, screen rotation, Canola or a webkit browser, etc, etc.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

"Evidently you didn't read it closely enough, then. Here's the relevant paragraph:

Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil
Actually users have an influence that is much bigger than the Maemo community council and ITt. Users talk here and in maemo.org, but they talk as much and more through the retailers, the customer care lines, the surveys, the focused groups, the market studies... And they talk with their purchases, as many people point out here."

Ah, I see! The non-engaged users don't need a spokesperson because they speak for themselves, through purchases, etc!

That's not quite as straightforward as saying "we don't care about them at all, except insofar as they buy stuff," but it's close enough.

I hope that clueless users are not cut off, regardless of that reasoning, and despite the fact that they speak for themselves through the sound of one hand clapping.

As I said too many posts ago, it is apparent that you have a coalition of people ready to support you, and my opinion makes no difference.

I'll stay here, and I'll continue to support the tablets or whatever they will be called as long as they are any good, but I don't think that the road to success is paved by elitism and handing out ranks and medals to everyone. But I have been wrong before, and I hope I'm wrong this time.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Apparently imploring you to read what's been written is no good, since you just read it as whatever you want it to be. Good to know. I wont spend more time trying to convince you otherwise.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

@geneven: maybe I missing something (forgive me in case) but your point seem a bit ungenerous. I don't get completely the council either and I stil don't know exactly the point (and that why I didn't vote) but I think their role is to keep balanced the discussions and cohesive the community (and I feel they did, until now, a damn good job) and only in second instance to be a filter for reasonable request or coordination with Nokia.
I don't know if they have any second goal, if they receive or not money, if they hope to be hired in Nokia (and honestly since they move their a** could be reasonable) and Im fine with that. Maybe something is not completely trasparent and there are some 'shade' I dont know about but I can't see a real reason to complain.
I feel the google ads on the ITT a way to keep the comunity completely independet from Nokia (and motivate the mainteiners): I have no idea how many people visit the ITT but I suppose the council should receive part of that money for their work. I hope the coming sinergy with maemo.org don't change too much the balance that seem works so well: they should keep some indipendent way to make some money (google ads or maybe a Nokia sponsorship but related to something tangible and public like number or visitors, contests or whatever).
Would be lovely to have Apple ads and let them pay for the maemo community :)
Peace and love

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Well, then they should tell Nokia that a hard case is important. After all, have you seen the number of threads tagged "n900 should have hardcase" lately? :p

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

It's not just "discussions" (which might seem too limited to the forums), but a wider role. My full thoughts are on the maemo-community list (expanding on one of my earlier posts in this thread):

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ch/003579.html

I hope we're completely transparent (if you have any questions, ask!). Some answers:

1. None of us wants a job with Nokia (as far I know)
2. None of us gets paid to be council members
3. We do more work as council members than not council members - but there's no reason many of the tasks we do couldn't be done by any active community member.
4. We have no ulterior motives: we want to make the connection between Nokia and the community as smooth as possible, so that the community flourishes and Nokia don't give up on this "open source" idea

We wouldn't want it. We're not ITT owners; we're not paid by Nokia. We want to help you (and ourselves) - and that overlaps, in parts, with helping Nokia as well.

Having Nokia pay for the hosting of ITT, sponsoring the summit and so on doesn't lose any "independence" of the forum or the community.

Have you seen any evidence that Nokia want to constrain or control the community, or this forum? If they did, the council would be the first up in arms!

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I don't see nothing wrong in recognize people works and time spent with money and seem fool not have any (potential) sponsorship from nokia just because the fear of the suspect of constrain :).
But is just a waste of hot air: I think the things works pretty fine the way are now.
Thanks for the works.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Is this something that will also be voted on by the community.

Also, Perhaps there needs to be some better press as to what the "community organizers" are working on and where they are looking for help or input?? We are on our second go round and I couln't tell you one thing they have done. Not that they havn't done anything, but I dont know what it is they have done? I thought the point of the community orginizers were to engage the community, and represent the community, yet I see no real way for the community give input or to see decisions being made. Perhaps I am a little slow??

I start out here >
http://maemo.org/community/council/

I then click on the latest announcment which is here (at the moment)
http://maemo.org/community/council/s..._gets_to_work/

I then click on the "Sprint" link which takes me to
http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints

I then click on March 09 and get to here
http://wiki.maemo.org/100Days/Sprint5


At this point I appear to be looking at some data. Is this what Nokia is asking for community help with? Where do we submit our requests for help on a project? What determines whether or not a project gets community support from the council? What determines what the council members work on? How can the communtiy actually get involved in council decisions. How do I know what decisions the council is working on and how do I lobby my council for support or tell them how I think they should represent me on a topic.


I am not trying to be overly negative, but as someone who has been here since what seems like the dawn of time, I am not clear what I am supposed to get from the Council or how I am supposed to interact with the council. I honestly never heard anything about council and was amazed we were voting for new council when I am not sure the old one actually did anything. And again maybe they did lots, but I am not seeing it communicated to the general public or if it is I am just not seeing it.

It seems like the council got 5 more people in the community more deeply involved, but I am not sure what that means to me or the rest of the community.

pb

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

(I fixed your link to March 09 Sprint above)

Yeah, that page is pretty cryptic to me too, I'm not sure why we should care about most of those tasks, and none of them look done, either. Well, except the election. So by the only metric that we have, it looks like the maemo.org team isn't doing so well.

(EDIT: The activity logs and the task lists don't seem to have anything to do with each other, either. Why are the team members working on things that have nothing to do with the tasks listed above? And if they are related, shouldn't they reference the task that they are related to?)

Also, Jaffa tried to plan the first sprint meeting of the new council, and we've already had two of the most important members of the, um, "paid side" of the team give "can't be there, but here's my report" responses.

So, yeah, I'm not sure what's going on, either.

Do you have something you want support for? Do you have topics you want representation on?

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I don't have the time to respond in detail at the moment, but if you're interested in being involved in community issues you should subscribe to maemo-community, and if you're interested in seeing what the Council's up to, you should pay attention to Planet (more specifically, the council blog).

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

I guess I am looking for:

What the council is working on?

How can I give my input?

How can I get involved to help?

How can I request help? (what type of help can/should be requested)

Its just never really been clear to me. I understand the stated purpose, but I need a user manual???

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Most of this discussion (as GeneralAntilles stated) can be found by subscribing to maemo-community. (Here are the archives.)

Tim

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Thanks Tim, I appreciate the links, but I am asking for a little more.

So Council, can we work on a Maemo Council portal, or wiki, or some front end to all the workings of the Maemo Council. How do I get that on the agenda?

I just feel like I am asking some simple questions and their seems not to be any simple answers. If you guys feel my request is not needed I guess ignore me. I am just saying if you want to get people involved, I think a better job could be done. Perhaps I just have a misexpectations of the council?

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Improvements to the council homepage are planned, and suggestions on what you'd like to see are welcome.

There's also been the suggestion of communicating council "business" more vigorously via Twitter (#m.occ) and on the current Sprint page's "daily reporting" section.

Sorry, I think we've answered any specific question accurately and simply. If you have other questions, how about formulating them into a list?

What request?

Get people involved in what? Plenty of people are involved in developing Mer, editing wiki pages, dealing with bugs, benefiting from the work of Niels and Jeremiah, downloading software, uploading software, and discussing on these fora.

When Nokia ask "do you want us to sponsor another summit, and where?", the elected council (and this is a representative democracy - not asking for feedback on everything) will steer and advise based on their opinions - and the opinions of anyone else offered.

You don't need our permission to do anything, and the role of the council as facilitators means you might not notice when we do things (which is fine - this isn't about glory, it's about getting things done).

It should be pretty clear what the council does (see my explanations above). It may not be everything you want the council to do, or you may have questions about its value, but I think questions of what we actually do have been answered.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Also, when the maemo-community list was created there were no plans for a talk.maemo.org. Now a possibility would be to move here the discussions held there.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

We'd have to see, but, generally speaking, more of the involved people (paid—maemo.org, Nokians, Nemein—and otherwise) are on -community than itT. Relevant issues tend to get pushed to itT eventually, anyway.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

A quick Google search turned up a script that claims to "scrape the archives of a MailMan list and convert to an RSS feed." Could that script or a similar one be implemented/adapted for Pipermail (Mailman edition), and if so, could a listing of recent threads from maemo-community be displayed in a sidebar on the talk.maemo.org main page? It might help the t.m.o main page become a one stop location for a quick overview of community discussion.

Re: Maemo Community Council: Why didn't you vote?
 

Yes! What sjgadsby said! I have said before that the mailing lists and the forums need to be brought closer together somehow.

Ideally, I think users should be able to make forums that they select from t.m.o act like mailing lists. That is, any new posts to that forum are e-mailed to "mailing list subscribers" of that forum, and those users can reply to threads by e-mail.

Then we could simply merge t.m.o and the mailing lists completely.

We can do it! We have the technology!