POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT?
 

Well should they?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

The phrasing "Should talk.maemo.org create and support ..." suggests that a) the people behind talk.maermo.org (primarily Reggie) owe you something or are at your beck and call and b) it's not something you/anyone else is capable of doing.

No-one's saying there won't be another theme, but why demand Reggie does it?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

I see nowhere it said Reggie has to do anything. Maemo.org should get it together. Use internal employees, use Quim's marketing money and pay someone. I don't really care, I just don't want to wait months, and I am sick of the "of your not willing to do it yourself" then shut-up attitude.

I filed a bug, talk.maemo.org is now part of maemo.org, so this becomes maemo.org's problem.

If it so easy that anyone can do it, why the hell isn't it getting done??

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Reggie, please help me understand. Seriously....


At ITT you had multiple themes, why is it now suddenly way more work to continue the status quo, now that you have more people behind the site, it would seem to me to be easier to maintain.

What specifically is the adverse reaction to the themes.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

So, as a council member, exactly how would you use your power (such as it is) to effect this change?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

OK, ill-advised troll-post feeding here but I'll bite.

Perhaps because the paid people have a lot more important things to work on, the volunteers don't have a problem with the theme and also have more important things to work on, and the people who really seem to have a problem with the theme are more interested in reiterating their complaints at every opportunity than doing something about it.

We get it, you don't like the light theme. Your bug report has been filed. Now it's time for you to either fix it yourself or wait for somebody else to fix it. In the mean time, let's move on to more constructive pursuits.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

I wouldn't

I would use my Role as council member to get more people involved, and keep people more informed. I realize that you all have lots of information flying everywhere, but it is not organized nor easy to find.

Thus eliminating this problem from happening in the first place. If I could only time travel.....

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

No, you have not agreed to fix it yet, why would I concede.

I still hate George Bush, I just don't give up that easily....

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

This is my confusion...

I get that maemo.org merged to iTT.. ok, great, fantastic.

I get that some people like the new theme and want it by default (especially for new users).. ok, great, fantastic.

What I don't get is that we already had an iTT theme running before this theme, it's already built, already made, what's the problem with simply allowing a person, should they so choose, to select "original iTT theme" in the theme selection box? Nobody needs to make anything, or pay anyone. Unless that theme got deleted?

Did the forum software change to a non-compatible version? I see this is powered by vBulletin... I *know* that has extremely simple theme support for it.. was it not vBulletin before?? (I never paid attention).

I've been somewhat out of the loop for a bit.. but every so often I try and catch up on here but I am finding it difficult to with this new layout. I'm sure people love it, I know people put a lot of effort into it, and that's great... but much like the OS X theme(s) for Mac - this is just not my cup of tea.

There's even entire vbulletin forums with free themes available.. why do we need something custom?? *any* other option(s) beside the default, or minimalistic. Although, I think I'm preferring minimalistic.. except that it's - well - minimal in functionality.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Such as asking people to create themes and scratch their own itch? (I admit the positions are getting entrenched, but you're not helping either)

Is this going back to the council homepage being a one-stop shop for community information? The council homepage links to planet.maemo.org and maemo.org/news/; and I don't expect everyone to come to us for news. Instead, we try to make sure that all appropriate places are being kept in the loop - whilst trying to keep collaboration contained in a single space.

For the concrete example of exactly how this was successfully done for exactly what the new theme would look like across maemo.org (including talk.maemo.org), see Tim's post on one of the myriad of other threads on this topic.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Indeed. A single, unified, distinct and user friendly brand across the entirety of the community home seems pretty important to me. Excellent we agree it should be the default (you kind of spoil this later with "why do we need something custom?? *any* other option(s) beside the default, or minimalistic" [the latter is custom, AIUI)

Some possible reasons:

• Reggie wanted to (or felt like he should) have a clean slate for the look and feel as ITT rebrands as t.m.o
• vBulletin has been upgraded. The theme may, indeed, have been incompatible.
• vBulletin's themeing isn't as good we think, and there were structural changes to the PHP pages required to get the look & feel working. The old theme just wouldn't work anymore.
• The old theme would've inherited some elements (say, a header) from the new theme and looked crap. Reggie didn't want to deliver (in his eyes) crap.

Well, if you're arguing for the return of the default vBulletin theme (which isn't that wildly different in feel, to me, to this new theme - which is why I like it), that's kinda off-topic for this thread about trying to get "Maemo.org" to create & support an inverted colour theme.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Look, I should belong to this mailing list, but not all 5 just this mailing list, and you should read all the blogs written by council members, and read the wiki and all the meeting logs.

I understand what role you are playing, I am telling you what I am proposing for my candidacy,

The problem is specifically, you are all to close to it, you all know whats going on, but most people don't, and you don't see this as a problem. You see this as "their" problem

Things are easy to find when you know where to look, but what if you don't know where to look.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

No! Tim's point, which I was specifically supporting, is that the role of the council is not to say "you should read this, this, this, this, this and that". It's to ensure that people following any of the mailing lists, planet.maemo.org, maemo.org news, the council blog, the wiki, meeting logs, IRC or ITT/talk are aware of what's going on.

And Tim demonstrated that, in this specific example, that's exactly what we did:

Other examples include council blog posts like:

• "Maemo School" proposal needs volunteers
• http://maemo.org/community/council/c... highlights...

These are examples of activity on ITT/talk being pushed by the council on the planet/news and, ultimately, the front-page of maemo.org. Similarly, discussion on ITT/IRC/mailing lists/bug reports is continually being re-distributed by council members (and other active community members).

This is the role of the council, and people get elected to the council for doing it (not talking about doing it).

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Instead of screwing around guessing at the reason, why not just wait until someone who knows give us the reason? (Assuming we are worthy of knowing.)

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

And as I said, this is fine. But why should we be force fed it? If I *want* to change to a different theme, why should that be restricted? By default, a unified interface, great! But OPTIONALLY a different one. Should Mer/Deblet/Android and everything else done on the tablets be discontinued because we should be *forced* to view the "unified" maemo interface?


Correct.. the default and the minimalistic are the custom ones. They are the ones the maemo.org put their time and effort into to build. And I am appreciative of that and wouldn't require maemo's paid team or anyone to *build* any other options. The custom is the default... as is with most forums. But for the *alternative* theme(s); why can we not use freely available theme's for vbulletin? That requires 0 work to build; and only requires the forum admin to import it and enable it.

A 2 second google search led me to find: http://vbskins.com/

On the first page, I saw: http://vbskins.com/theme/dark-futura.html

Now.. does that *have* to be the alternative? No of course not.. it's just one that jumped out at me as looking similar to the old itt in format, although the colors are different, and still a dark theme that PB and others like him want. Is there some particular reasons why grabbing free themes like that is out of the question?

I appreciate your list here but all of these I understood and know. Hence why I *asked* if they were incompatible. I am a System Admin that has managed several forums and was asking if someone could specifically tell me the technical reason why it was not allowed as an alternative. If it was a political reason, and not technical, then that is the answer I want. Most other upgrades or mergers I've seen on forums I was a member too changed to the new layout by default, but still allowed the old just for those people that didn't want "change". I know Obama is the president.. but still..


I was merely suggesting it as an alternative. If it's compatible, it would take like 5 minutes to add it and shut everyone up? If it's not compatible that's a different story. And I see about a dozen threads on this same topic.. They all revolve around the theme. Sure, 3 are polls with different wording, there are at least 2 full 25+ page discussion threads with different OP wording... but the core of all of these are the same. So if my choice of thread to respond in is not to your liking just insert my comments to any of the other needlessly extensive threads around here regarding the theme that you feel it's more of a fit for..

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Look if you don't want to vote for me, thats your prerogative. You think things are great that's your problem.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Thanks for the more constructive post. I know my reasons were pulled out of my arse, but I wouldn't blame Reggie for avoiding getting into this thread when he could be fixing bugs in the new theme (or doing the day job!)

And would it shut everyone up?! ;-)

:-)

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

No, I want to do a better job now. Restating "there's a problem" over and over again doesn't help (much).

I explained what we were trying to do, and how making people come to the council homepage for news, didn't seem like the best idea to me.

I assume you don't want us to stop what many active forum members are doing (sharing things they know) between the spaces they collaborate in, so have you any tips before I cede my seat to you in 5 months' time?

Specifically, you now know as much as we knew then. You can see the meeting minutes. You can see the mailing lists. You can see the blog posts, the threads here, the IRC logs, the Google search results and so on. You want to disseminate what you know: how would you do it?

PS. FWIW, if you are someone who doesn't want to trawl these places trying to ensure that as many people know as much as possible - rather than just valiantly representing them - you won't like being a council member.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Well.. Let me say this... if it WAS available but required a total of 4 mouse clicks to get it back.. and people were complaining about the new theme... I bet you'd find that they would have significantly less support. Many people, myself included, would tell them the classic "use the search" response so they could find the inevitable tutorial that would come about titled "How to change back to the iTT theme". ;)

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Man, I don't think some will ever get it. It's a shame that all this disagreement will just take toll on the community. It's not a matter of just reactivating an old theme, nor just get a pre-built theme off the shelf. It's all about our image as a community! What kind of message are we going to give the future members with a disjoint theme and all this bickering. More on my other post.

Oh, there's another reason:
http://img.skitch.com/20090501-p6quw...qa22keew5p.jpg

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Why would having multiple theme options send a bad message? I don't get that at all.


I don't know what that means!

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Reggie,

Thank you for the response. And I did see your other post but you specifically said that for those of us that don't like.. design our own.

Was your intent to say if we don't like.. start our own forum and use our theme there? I imagine you meant that you would load that theme that was designed by someone else..

Which was specifically what I was talking about... Is there no themes that are pre-made that work with *your* specific vbulletin? (I imagine you must have made some custom changes?).

As far as the message to the community.. the entire reason why I love the internet tablet from nokia is the fact that I have options.. and I'm not jail-locked into specifically what maemo wants me to have. The same goes for the forum.. if we force people to use the one, or two themes I think it sends more of a negative message than if we had a few different options and made the community more about 'choice', and not 'control' as it were.

But that is, of course, my humble opinion. You are, of course, the god of this particular corner of the intrawebz. Your decision is, ultimately, final.

Thank you for the screenshot - was that actually of your system? You have 200+ themes? Wow.. i can see how that would be a headache.

ETA: I just saw your other reply to the other thread. So your meaning was the change all, or none. Understood - thanks for the clarification Reggie and I'll stop arguing.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

No, definitely not! What I'm saying is, let's follow the proper procedure in the line of something like -- design - propose - vote - implement.

Yup, most are custom for the new theme. It might be a nightmare again when the forum system gets upgraded. It's all worth it though if it means it will not confuse people coming through maemo.org.

I'm not against new themes. Let's have the community agree on them first before we implement it.

A theme is composed of several (actually a lot) of components. When the forum system tells you they are incompatible with the new version, you have to manually fix each component.

Thanks.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

As a fellow vbulletin designer I'm here to tell you Reggie is right theme designing isn't as easy as everyone things it is. There are hundreds of little files you have to edit. Heck when I first wrote the minimalist theme it wasn't working right because our sand box site wasn't the same version as itt. Once again we are having to update our sandbox site for me to update minimalist theme and who knows how many fixes there will need to be done.

BTW when facebook changed there layout a few weeks ago my wife was all mad because she couldn't find anything. Now she loves it because she got used to it. Same way when MS Office Vista 2007 came out I got pissed off because I had to learn the new setup all over again but now it faster and better for me to use.

I think we should give it some time to get use to it. In the mean time come up with some alternate color schemes based off of this one. Basicly I would say keep header and orange the same but come up with some darker grays for bottom then someone do some mock ups and send them out to community and we can come up with a dark version maybe. I personally am going to do a dark minimalist version after I finish current one. If someone will come up with colors for a dark variant and we all decide together on the color I will use them for dark minimalist theme so they both match.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Also, talk.maemo.org isn't the only vBulletin forum site Reggie admins. An additional theme here, even if free in monetary terms, isn't free in terms of time Reggie will have to invest in maintaining it. Someone volunteering to develop and maintain a theme, as Andrew does, is a different matter.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Nothing was wrong with the factory default vBulletin theme we had. Bring it back please.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Look Reggie, its obvious I am pissing you off, and that was never my intent. I love ITT, I just want it to look like it always has.

Please explain how I can get a theme I like?

Do I need to get my own vbulletin system and develop it on my own? Can you give me access to a development box.

What process do I follow if I want to create and submit a alternate theme for the site?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Not at all. It's cool man.

Now we're talking! :D

Try to search for the midgrad2cms SVN. I think there are a few Potoshop .psd's in there that contains the current maemo.org theme.

There is no need to create the theme directly at vBulletin. You can just first create some prototype screens in Photoshop and then go from there. Others might be interested to help.

You just keep discussing it here. Create a new thread just like what Andrew did on the Minimalist theme.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

So please connect some more dots for me. How does creating a picture get me closer to the theme? I don't assume vbulletin creates a theme from the image.

I am not trying to be stupid, but I know nothing about vbulletin, and I want to understand the entire process before I go down this road.

Are you saying I need to make a picture and get it approved before I move forward to create the theme?

I personally was thinking I want to take the default working theme and change the color scheme. I have asked several times if this is possible? is it?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Anyone else want to support the agenda?

Feel free to use http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ine=1241053486 if you like

Since some people were asking....

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

This is a PM lemmyslender sent me. It shows the example of what is happening to this forum.

New users should not be afraid to post, for fear of being off topic, or attacked. Lots of people around here, could learn from this.

Here is one new members perspective, thanks Len.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Thanks for all your efforts Reggie. I have been a contributing member of your forum since January of 2007. As just 1 of this forums many members the message I got was don't get to comfortable, things change. :eek:

Many of us are are here initially because of the disorganization we encountered when we first visited the other available sites like Tableteer (no updates) Maemo.org (770 centric and in general disrepair) Nokia (releasing upgrades that broke existing apps and then going on vacation for 2 weeks or the repository fiasco prior to another 2 week holiday).
During it all this was a place that was always open and where you could find other users with either a solution to your problems or a willingness to work together toward a common goal.
As a result the community YOU provided a home to grew and florished and realy didn't need that much intervention. As a group we learned or were learning to get along
Many of us now see this as a takeover by the very (lack of) organization that was responsible for driving us here in the first place.

I suspect that the theme issue is not as big as the post and thread count may indicate but rather alot of this noise is a result of misplaced frustration over how this change has been handled.

We who are in a very large majority are basicly being told that we now belong to a community who's fate direction and mission have already been discussed and determined by a smaller group of people who belong to various mailing lists. We chose not to join these mailing lists and as a result we must now play whatever hand that is dealt.


Yeeesh, somehow it seems to me that its like asking... "Will any member who can't see this post indicate so by saying "aye"." :D



If this is the communities forum; what's going on here and here ?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Hey!

Who moved my cheese?

And why the &@^$ does my password display when I am logging in now?!?

The password thing does irritate me, but the theme, meh. I hated the first change to the dark template, but got used to it. I'll get used to this too I suppose.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

70%, can we get that any higher?

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Thanks x 10.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

Well put! On top of everything you said, it's a shame so much time and effort was spent turning this great medium of communication into an unsuable eye sore.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original IT
 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder: I find the new them more useable and much more easy to read than the previous default (in fact I selected another theme before the upgrade).

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

totally agree with this. when it was first announced a few months back that ITT was to be folded into a greater Nokia-funded assembly I posted my concerns. I just hope the 'choice' issue over the theme is not in itself a warning of things to come for the devices themselves...

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original IT
 

Ah, my little grasshopper, please pay attention.
The visual usability of GUI is affected by several factors:
- The screen: the new theme colors are almost unbearable in my desktop (big high luminance and high resolution screen) while much easier in the n810. Screen resolution and size affect the available space and layout.
- The system fonts: bolder fonts make orange and gray text more readable, since the contrast is increased. On the other hand, the need of bigger fonts in the small screen causes the "right bar on top" problem.
- The room illumination: the screen background must not have excessive contrast with the room background. The eye can't be adapted to dark and light at the same time.
- And,most important, the eye of the beholder, and, you see, it is not a question of beauty, but there are such thing as old people, color blindness, macular degeneration, and many other eye diseases, so what may appear fine to you, might be unbearable to other people.

And that is why "one size fits all" is so a bad idea, and the first rule of ergonomics/usability is to allow the system to be adjusted to the user needs and not the other way around.

So, my little grasshopper, this is why so much people ask for a choice.

Re: POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT
 

I've just voted "No", as after a few days ajustment, I now find that the normal and minimalist themes work great on the laptop, and my N800 respectively.

The old themes were less then perfect. N810 was a bit slow, and heavy for the tablet, but MobileII which I favoured did not display images etc.

Thanks to Reggie and the other guys for their efforts.