Re: N900 specs revealed
 

You obviously have never used a G1 or iPhone or a Wiimote. :)
It's not only about acceleration forces.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

The new, smaller avatar size on Talk makes more sense now though, doesn't it? Reggie knew!

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

But only if it's a meaningful sample size, and is an accurate representation of the larger population as a whole. Otherwise, it's just 60 anecdotal opinions, not a meaningful survey (in terms of capturing the desires of the market as a whole).

The fact that we're here makes us a self-selecting subset of not just the mobile market, but of the NIT market. We plainly do NOT include the NIT market subset that doesn't want to participate in web forums (I'm pretty sure I know one of them, maybe two), and the poll clearly doesn't include those members of the market that don't answer polls.

Are you really that sure that the market Nokia is aiming at with the new devices is accurately represented by the 60 people who answered the poll? Because, I'd really love to see that justification done in a rigorously scientific and statistically significant manner.

Odds are: we (the people on this forum) are not a statistically significant cross section of the market Nokia is after. Which would mean the poll is a biased subset of the market, not a cross section of the market ... and thus looking at its answers as a percentage of the respondents is not a meaningful representation of desires/opinions of the market as a whole.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Okay, you had to ask. :D

Answer: I do (as well as ragnar, quim, and Peter).

I will say that while i worked there I was unsatisfied with the exploration done by *some* product groups. And within Nokia there is a general sense of "we don't care what the consumer is asking for, we're giving them this"... especially where the US was concerned. That attitude led to many fiascos and was one contributing factor in Nokia's decline of US market share (there were others of equal footing though).

Now, I will also say that the consumer doesn't always know what they want. I believe this is the case regarding the internet tablet form factor. I have personally witnessed numerous instances of people exhibiting skepticism when initially faced with the N800 brick and then being won over by its capabilities (and subsequently disappointed by Youtube performance...).

One thing customers DO tend to know, however, is what they don't want. If they've had a bad experience they're not likely to repeat it. That's an area in which Nokia still needs significant improvement... although I can say the ratio of winners-to-turkeys in the product portfolio is much better than it was 3 years ago.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Ragnar, it almost seems like we're saying the same thing. Nokia has more phone offerings than most women have shoes. So, why not just add a keyboardless one to the mix? How can you go wrong?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

No. What you say is true with regards to official metrics analysis but not in the context of this discussion. Quim isolated the 60 and placed it into a context even more meaningless than using the poll sample as representative. That was my point.

EDIT: lol... I see johnkzin accumulating some Thanks on that post so maybe I need to explain better.

Forget serious statistical analysis. My point had NOTHING to do with that guys (as a quality analyst I would have been strung up for thinking that poll was scientific).

My point was about removing a number from its contextual confines and juxtaposing it against a number that rendered it meaningless. Keep the 60 within the poll and, while it's not scientific by any means, it offers perspective nonetheless. Pull it out and toss it into an unrelated dataset, and that perspective is utterly lost.

Now-- where's MY thanks? :p

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Yes, definitely. If there's one thing I can say about my 2.5 years here, it's that there are easily several divisive issues, with fairly even distribution across each one.

WWAN or Not
Phone or Not
DPad or Not
DPad on the face, or Not
Physical vs Virtual Keyboard
Stylus vs Finger

and I'm sure other people could easily add several more to the list.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Is this all just a bad late April fools day joke?

Are they trying to drive people to Pandora? Making the screen smaller is a horrible mistake and I hope this is all a joke in poor taste.

And all supposed references to TMO, I thought that was Talk. Maemo. Org, at least I have been seeing this alot here.

To all those that like the Iphone, go buy one. To all those that want a Linux experience, Pandora is looking more and more like the way to go. Where exactly would that leave Nokia?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Take a read of 'What would you realistically like to see in the N900' and let me know if we are unified in our wants.


I can't argue this, you are right. However...

As a user of a somewhat frequent user of an ipod touch (which has a smaller screen), I can certainly state from experience that it does not make these activities less enjoyable for me.

In fact I intuit that the smaller screen has given rise to an interface appropriate for its dimensions, making my experience with it quite pleasurable.


Sadly? What do you think would happen to this device if Nokia researchers didn't look elsewhere?


YARR!
}:^)~
All Smiles Corrupt

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I do know it can be (and has been) significant. I also know the N800 caught Nokia by surprise. ;)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Oops number 1 is that we don't know just *what* the market is for the new device(s). Seriously. We've never been told what/who is the new multi-device lineup targeting. We're left to speculate in the range of high end smartphone phone to micro-netbook. Not exactly a small range to cover.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Then you haven't been here for very long, or you didn't read the general forum very much.

Prior to the Maemo 5 announcement this last fall, the GSM argument was HUGE, frequent, and often pretty damn vitriolic. And I've seen some of those same sentiments mentioned even in this thread.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Yeah, the GSM issue was polarizing for sure. I was surprised because I was on the GSM-favoring side and didn't understand why it caused so much animosity if it were simply another option.

NOW I get it: including GSM has a cascading effect, ie, it drives other design factors.

Stupid me, I should have known that. Duh. I've been away from product development too long... :D

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Its kind of funny and sad...

The MobileCrunch news is the kind of thing that has brought many eyes to the IT that forgot or didn't want to hear about it, but then those eyes come to this forum to see people crying because they will have to reside in a bigger playpen.

Do folks here really want to see Maemo be the best it can be?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I think that's a mischaracterization of the general discussion...

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Which is, in my opinion, the main problem. We're (at least, me) no longer the market Nokia is after. I saw it coming in that Maemo 5 version Modest screenshot: the "CC" header is no longer present in the compose message window. This may seem like a small potato, and I'm sure that option is still hidden somewhere in a 2-tap menu, but the fact is that they've finally listened to the 99% of users who do not know what CC is and do not want it on their devices, instead of the 1% who use it daily.

BTW: How are you going to build a community of people around a device if those people are not the intended market of the device?
Why actually _listen_ to a community of people if they're not the intended market of your device? etc. etc.

I personally want the platform to suit my needs first. Egotistical, I know. But at least I admit it. If it does not suit my needs I will leave it, it doesn't matter if it fits 99% of the world population' needs.

This is, by the way, the reason Nokia should not listen to my advice.

Please note that up so far Maemo has generally suited my needs, which is the reason I chose the N810.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

And what scientific statistical analysis did you perform to determine the evenness of these distributions ? :) I was not sure if the old divisions still hold out, hence the poll. The response showed an uneven distribution. If you want to argue that the 'other' choice's voters were abstaining, again, it would be nice to explain why one side's voters are abstaining more than the other sides.

PS. Yes, I already regret that poll. Sorry.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2447/...9fd081.jpg?v=0

New Pic of the next INT N900 ?!

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Presence, rather than explicit comments, were being construed as support for Nokia's direction for Maemo and the internet tablets...? :rolleyes:

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I don't think it's a matter of abstention, I think it's a matter of too many variables lumped into one question. What about people who are ok with the smaller screen size, absolutely will only buy a device WITH GSM, but aren't going to ever buy a 3 row keyboard, and definitely want a dpad? That's me in a nutshell.

That's why my answer was "neither". I don't want either of the devices you described, so I either have to vote for neither, or vote for one that has a pet issue on it, and then unintentionally be counted among proponents of the other features they either don't care about ... or disagree with (but less-so than their pet issue). (If you were to remove GSM from the question, then I'd definitely go with the latter device, but I really don't want to carry two pocketables, so as the question stands, I don't want either of them: I can't vote for the 4-5" screen because it doesn't meet a key need, and I can't vote for the 3.5" device because it only satisfies ONE of my needs)

And that later reasoning is why I think you're seeing bias in the results. My non-scientific hunch is that people aren't so much voting FOR "data only" as they are voting AGAINST 3.5" screen size and/or 3 row keyboard and/or no-dpad.

If you were to break them down into individual questions (screen size, GSM vs data only, 3 row vs 4 or 5 row keyboard, dpad or none, overall device size), each with 5 levels of opinion (strongly want A, weakly want A, don't care, weakly want B, strongly want B), I would expect that the GSM variable would still be pretty even. I could be wrong, but that's what I would expect.

(another possibility is: a lot of the people who want to carry only one device have already moved on to other pastures, tired of waiting to ever see a Maemo phone)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Funny you should bring that up.... check out how the OVI launch is doing then search this forum to see if some of the issues were presented to Nokia in the past. I know one issue was brought up here almost 2 years ago. :eek:

***

This thread has been interesting... For me, not so much because of the specs but to help understand how Nokia researches a potential market.
I think everyone understands the need for objective data and therefore, why maemo.org members or other Tablet enthusiasts are not part of any focus groups. However it does raise the question of what role does maemo.org play, if any?

Were any maemo.org member ideas ever solicited?

I know Nokia sponsors the summits and absorbs costs for some developer devices but what percentage of our membership lives with in a 300 mile radius of a summit or for that matter, what percentage of our new improved (itT added) membership was accepted by a developer program?

The answer isn't sponsor more members, the answer might be simply to provide a mechanism where the membership could vote on a feature request or two to be added to any future market research or... Politely tell us that maemo.org is just a way to placate loyal and enthusiastic customers or people who might influence a future market.

For me the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting. From the quality I experienced when using Nokia products in the past, I'm sure this device will be very useful.
If these specs are correct, I also suspect that regardless of quality, it will have to be the most expensive device Nokia offers or other product sales might be cannibalized.

What is the projected price of this gizmo?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I have to agree. And that's partially why I don't have an iPhone. And it's why I moved on to owning a G1, instead of continuing to carry my N810.

It's my dollars being spent. I'm going to buy the device that makes me happiest, and the device that will make me happiest is the one that suits my needs ahead of the needs of the masses. :-)

Something that did EVERYTHING that both my N810 and my G1 can do... that would definitely get my dollars. Removing features from that list, even if it makes the product more attractive to more consumers, makes me less and less likely to buy that product.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

They should try to avoid this kind of headline:

Best Buy lists unsubsidized "regular price" for Palm Pre at $850; punch in the face is no extra charge

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

In some ways, it wouldn't surprise me if they had listened to all of the conflicting arguments in our past, and those influenced some of the design decisions.

Not the 3 row keyboard ... that was probably drawn from the N97. Or, at most, misinterpreted from people being enamored with the overall design of the N97 (NOT including the 3 row keyboard) -- people here HAVE advocated a maemo phone based on the N97 (myself included). I just meant overall styling and tilt screen (and I said "put the dpad back on the face!").

But the "it should be a phone" -- lots of people here said it, including me.

And I know I said, within the last 9 months "I don't miss the larger screen [since moving to the G1], 3.5 inches is enough".

There have been many people here who advocated for a more iPhone like finger friendly interface (which can be interpreted to support "no dpad", even though that's not what I meant when I was one of those advocates).

And, there have been people here who have said it needs to be a smaller device.


Factoring in misinterpretations ("liking the N97 means the 3 row keyboard will go over well", and "wanting a finger friendly GUI means we can remove the dpad"), I have actually advocated all of those, at one point or another. So, I don't think the fact that we all seem to hate it means that they didn't listen to the ITT community. Some of it is a matter of interpretation, and some of it is a matter of the fact that, as a community, we don't really all agree on "what the Maemo platform should be".

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

(and, hopefully that last post of mine isn't now going to get me blamed for the leaked design being such an abomination ;) )

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

saddest thing about this is so many more months to wait, me being a European :(

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

My experience has been that ANY concern expressed by posters here (for one) is immediately and soundly rebutted--regardless of the merit. The decision has been made and nothing further, despite how poignant or relevant, will alter the destiny of the device in question.

That has been a big problem in Nokia, but Nokia leadership does not see it as a problem... just compounding the problem.

Nokia has been consistently hammered, IMO rightfully so, on its general portfolio being too broad and in some cases self-defeating. Last year this was brought up to OPK at a gathering and he reiterated the standard line that Nokia's portfolio approach is what it is (ie, lacking flexibility for markets that need it) and won't change. Sure, there can be a sharp tradeoff between making 60 or so devices to cover a broad spectrum versus 10 that are highly configurable, and yet it's been managed by other companies. Nokia is just not nimble enough and this is a reflection of its rigid (and antiquated IMO) organizational structure more than anything else.

This structure often leads to severe disconnects between Nokia product development and consumers. It also induces significant lag between identification of a segment and release of a product fitting that segment. Nokia spends much more time in the tails of novelty than the heads.

I once remarked to an unnamed fellow here that in trying to bridge the chasm between open source and commercialization, Nokia would find that customers would want even more say over product decisions than those involved in the standard we-make-it-you-just-buy-it-or-don't segment. IE, my point was that Nokia would find people here more capable of "driving the bus" than the current drivers. That remark was met with strong resistance-- but I still believe it is accurate. And the more Nokia as an entity argues and resists that reality, IMO the more share it ultimately stands to lose to companies much more willing to embrace the unconventional.

/soapbox

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Overall, I am not as concerned about the reduction in screen size as what I think may be the ramifications and inherent compromises of moving Maemo from the comfortable niche it currently resides in to what appears to be a mass market phone device with carrier branding. This transition could be a big win for Nokia and potentially eventually a big win for our community -- although a big Nokia win may or may not mean a big community win.

My usage scenario is that I have a cheap phone and use the N810 for everything else. I need at least one pocketable device that is open linux in the pocket. If it is a phone too that would be acceptable. I also hope to buy in the future a 5 to 7 in linux tablet.

Concerns with the introduction of the phone for the "N900" is the potential cost (I don't have an inexhaustible gadget budget), whether I can get it unlocked, and how tied down it will be to the carrier and the types of services the carrier will try to sell me.

As far as the reduced screen size, this is disapponting; however, in terms of e-book reading I read lots of pooks on my Palm II/II back in the day with their crappy screen so I don't view it as a huge deal. That being said, my close-focusing on my eyes is going, and I would prefer a device I don't have to use glasses for constantly.

The market for this device seems to be the iphone, blackberry, palm-pre, android crowd. If Nokia can successfully enter this market and expand the number of users and developers of Maemo **without** sacrificing the openess and community spirit, I think this is a big win -- even if the initial device is a phone with a 3.5 in display.

If Nokia can maintain its openness, then this N900 device could become what the OpenMoko Freerunner could have been. Although with T-Mobile on board, maybe not.

Also since Nokia seems to be pushing Maemo into the big arena now, it is going to be playing with the "big boys" and will have to be able to hold its own with them. This is a different playing field than the R&D internet tablet niche that Nokia has been playing around in with us.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

There are a lot of "IFs" wrapped around that, some spoken and some not, but I'm in line with your thinking overall.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Notwithstanding the rest of your comments, as a consumer I've had my opinions solicited via a number of "give us your feedback on the Nokia N810" surveys. I believe they showed up in the Tableteer RSS feed, and enticed participation via headphone draws etc.

Now, of course, that's not a maemo.org participation mechanism - and, as you say, we have no formal (or even direct informal) method for feeding back on hardware designs :-(

My gut says "lots" :-(

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

The Rover specs on Mobile Crunch indicate that there is a Live Dashboard which "allows all open tasks and unread messages to be displayed in one view".

And those Harmattan screen shots from last week or so also show some sort of 'latest activity' widget as seen below:

http://static.arstechnica.com/maemo1.jpg

Are we sure those leaked Harmattan shots are not really Fremantle ones?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

If you read all the posts on this thread by Ragnar, Peter@MaemoMarketing, and qgil, you have to conclude that there is no greater-than-3.5" non-phone-option device in the Nokia pipeline; that is, as far as Nokia is concerned, the Tablet is dead and there is not another Tablet in the Nokia pipeline. They say that they aren't going to tell us what new hardware Nokia plans to release, but they have been relentless in telling us that people don't want to carry two devices and that their research shows that most people do not want anything larger than a smartphone. What's-her-name's (can't remember her name -- no disrespect intended) presentation of the stylus-less Maemo 5 pointed in the same direction.

I agree with them that the Tablet is not the sweet-spot in the market that is addressed by the iPhone and the N97 and the rumored N900.

But that doesn't mean that the Tablet format (4"+ screen and no phone capability) is not a large niche, just not as huge a niche as the smartphone's niche.

Furthermore, that niche is obviously there; Nokia has just done a poor job exploiting it on the software end. And they have never really tried to market it (which would have been impossible anyway, due to the software).

We know the market is there because the iPod touch sells well. Yes, the iPod touch is also pocketable in a way that the N8x0 series isn't. But the people I know who opted for the touch over the Tablet made that choice because the interface was smoother, it had the apps they wanted, and browsing seemed much quicker. They made the choice despite feeling they were sacrificing a more desirable screen size (and better resolution). Yes, some people would want the pocketability, but others would want the larger screen.

For me, the N800 hardware was near-perfect for the then-current state of the technology. I am not a Linux user nor a programmer, and I had to work hard to make it act like I wanted. I'm convinced that it would have sold much better if Nokia had made it more consumer-friendly.

The problem was not the hardware, it was the software. Read any of the reviews from when it came out. Review after review said the interface made it of interest "only to hobbyists." In this long review, the reviewer starts out the subsection on User Interface with: "I mentioned in an earlier post that the N800 isn't very user-friendly out of the box and that the average consumer and/or tech newbie would be pretty dumbfounded. I still stand by these words and would like to add that the reason for my original assessment is the device's user interface. ... There's no denying that this is not user-friendly." (Underlining supplied not by me but by the original reviewer.)

At this point, hardware capability has progressed to the point where the N800-successor could do great all the things that it now does well enough. With minor updates, it could, for example, play movies smoothly and browse quicker, and it could sport a transreflective screen. It would be, for many people, perfect for what its uses are. And these are uses that are irreparably impaired by shrinking it. It’s especially disappointing to abandon the Tablet when Nokia may finally have a consumer-friendly interface.

I don't get Nokia's apparent decision (for at least the near-term) to abandon the Tablet niche. How many models of phones does Nokia make? It seems to be thousands! Why walk away from a unique niche, especially when you could finally do it really well? If Nokia gets enough return on all these different phone models, why won’t it also make a Tablet, especially since it is developing the software anyway and hardware-wise could just follow the N800 as a prototype?

If Nokia does not soon come out with another Tablet, their support of this community will be darn ironic. I, for one, will be using the forum as a springboard to install Mer on something like a successor to the Moses Smart Q5, as soon as it offers processor/RAM specs like the rumored N900. And here I’d thought Nokia was in the business of selling hardware.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Excellent summary of the problems with the alternatives. From cruising the web, the best I've seen so far is the Moses Smart Q5, which ought to be Mer-capable. I'm looking forward to its successor (for now, the specs don't provide reason to upgrade from my N800).

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Ok, let throw some ideas around. We can be fairly certain there will be more than one device. This assumption is made due to the whole rx-51, rx-71 keyboard layout thing in the SDK. At the time (I just checked) there was a little speculation about the number jump between 51 and 71. How about, and please dont shoot me, this as a scenario: rx-51 is the phone we are seeing rx-71 is an n810 style tablet and there is another tablet the rx-61 which is n800 like i.e. no harware keyboard so it wasnt mentioned in the keylayout files.

If anything here is blatantly wrong I apologise, but I'm just trying to be optimistic...

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I came to this thread pretty late with a lot of commnets about a design I never knew - though I have been waiting expectantly for the N900. Many a time I considered selling off my N810.

Seeing this more-of-a-smartphone device (rendering) I havemixed feelings - firstly as a computer a 4"+ screen is needed - but again I would like to have my phone in one device as well - and for that a 3.5" screen is decent (holding the N810 to the ear seems a bit clunky - I know I can use a BT headset, but thats not a solution).

If this device (and its specs) is true, then I might buy this - as I was very tempted by the N97 - and having a Maemo phone - with all my Maemo software compatible is a better option - and I would like to have an all-in-one device.

Since the days of the Zaurus - I used to be against all-in-one devices, but have gradually become accepting of having one device to fit my needs - as carrying them all is a pain. I love having my instant-access camera on my N95 now - as a sign of my changing needs and tastes.

The lack of D-pad (if true) though is a bad thing - as well as a 3 row keyboard. Plus I want hardware buttons - at least minimal but NOT an iPhone like buttonless device.

My next though that came to mind was that I would in that case keep my N810 - and use that as a connected device thru the N900 (over BT) - at least for computer like functions - as the 4" screen is a must for that.
And maybe MER will fill in the gaps on my N810 -as well as making it a complimentary device to the N900 phone (if it is that) - both software wise and hardware wise.

Again the smaller screen size might not be a deal-breaker - depends on how the Fremantle UI really makes best use of the screen real-estate.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I couldn't let this go unanswered. I believe that's the case for you. But I live with an iPod touch as well as an N800 (I bought the touch for my live-in girlfriend), and I find the touch much less enjoyable for those activities, most notably for ebooks and movies.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Well, hopefully this is just one of the many Freemantle devices yet to come. If Nokia was surprised by the greater than expected sales of the N800, they underestimated the market for the device and not the OS.
I'm thinkin' we are all going to be surprised by the market for used N800's...

If this is in fact the one and only Freemantle device this forum founded by, and grown from device enthusiasts may dwindle.

IMHO, people don't like messing with their primary means of communication with the outside world and that's why the N800/10 grew this forum and ultimately maemo.org.

A device that is independent of the cell phone is what appealed to the N. American market. In 2 + years of owning mine, I have changed /upgraded phones 3 times and haven't missed a beat with any of my NIT apps...

Hell, you can forget/loose/drop/let the battery die on your cell phone and still connect to the net using a spouse or a friends phone. You can even just hang out in front of many stores and businesses to connect if you had to. This level of redundancy is a benefit that is now lost when the device is also a phone.

Because this and other benefits are lost (ironically with the addition of new features), I'm thinkin' the N800/10 may be the first handheld device that is recognized as having significant resale value… at least in N. America. :)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Hi,

1) Is this device a capacitive display (more friendly for finger touch) like iPhone or is a resistive display (more nail and stylus friendly) like 5800 XM and N97?

2) Is this device multi-touch?

If the device is capacitive with multi-touch then the lack of D-pad is ok, because the device can be controlled for directions from touching and multi - simultaneous touch on the screen. Still, a track-ball like G1 was good (and it does not need so much space like the D-pad).

Nokia should have a 5" to 7" tablet based on Maemo ASAP (Apple is preparing a 7" iPad) for a big segment of customers who want an Internet Tablet device in between the laptop and a smartphone as size. With a large 5"-7" screen, students and many people who use it badly for editing documents, video-editing, programming and even watching a video or TV (you know all protable DVD players have >7" screen size).

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I don't understand....why cant they just say one word?

They have told us about far more strategic things like adding 3g, camera etc.... why cant they say that it has a bigger screen? What potential disadvantage will they have if they say that?

Forget the maemo summits and the community, why cant they confirm or deny the presence of an Internet tablet as we know them?
Just a simple yes or no would help us a lot.

Please nokia just let us know. If you don't plan to have an internet tablet with maemo 5 let us know. We don't have the time or resources to waste on something we don't want. And unlike you employees who get paid for doing whatever you do... we just follow our passions. The internet tablets mean a lot to us. I think it is cruel to play with our passions and drop it suddenly. I am really disappointed.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I'm really looking forward to seeing the video out in action. What's the resolution on that? A good video out might soothe some of my small-screen grumbles.