Re: N900 specs revealed
 

My point is that at the pixel densities we are talking about (in N8x0, HTC HD, N900), even the font no longer matters. Any text of humanly readable size is going to look pretty smooth on them.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I think the main crux of the counter-point is lost in your oversimplification that a smaller screen is better in all possible ways.

Nobody has argues that line - the main point has been that a smaller screen is "acceptable" as a trade-off for the other gains that the new devices is supposed to have - a better screen (not in terms of size but quality), a better UI to take advantage of the smaller screen (which makes a smaller screen not THAT bad), a better camera, voice capabilities etc.

I haven't seen influx of argumentative line which argues that "a smaller screen is better than the larger 4" screen full stop".

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I agree with nilchak, but I've got to say I am starting to come around to the idea of something with a reasonable screen size (i.e. the 3.5") and being more pocketable, and being programmable.

So yeah, the applications will be more phone-esque, I can't see myself watching feature films or poring over many spreadsheets, but I can think of some cool apps that would use the location + always connected abilities of GSM (and hopefully a better GPS too!)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

???

You're using the same fixed width font you use in xterm for your e-book reader on your N8x0 as well?

What if you use a font which is smooth enough you can use a smaller size instead, allowing you to read more text?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

But the 770 was not a N. Yes, I know that I sound like a nitpicker, but I think it is worth noting that 770 was a separate experiment but the N800 was the first N Series Internet Tablet.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Volt, I can relate to most of what you've written here, except the above which I find strange.

I have been tethering my tablets through (Nokia) phones ever since 2005 - three tablets, four phones. I never had to click around anywhere - just launch the browser on the tablet, and it takes seconds, not much more than connecting to Wifi. The phone can stay in bag/pocket or a few metres away for better reception...

That's why I never got sick and wasn't looking for options :-)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

It is not in Nokia's interest to proclaim "we are abandoning tablets!!"

It is in Nokia's interest to keep the tablet community hanging on and hoping. Nevertheless, because of the delay, Nokia has effectively abandoned further tablet development. Of course it could always resume that development someday.

maemo.org is not owned by Nokia, but people from maemo.org and Nokia are really throwing their weight around on the forums here, and anyone who doesn't notice that is not awake. And in the process, it is obvious that us "normal users" have been devalued.

It looks to me like Nokia decided, "well, tablets failed. What can we keep of value out of this experiment. Of course! The maemo community!" And this is exactly what Nokia has done, with the complicity of Reggie.

We ordinary tablet users have been sold down the river.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

@geneven

I don't think we know what Nokia has done. All we know at this point is people on this forum are experts at filling in the blanks. Seems like it's a forum of detectives instead of gadget lovers. All we have/know at this point is a leaked picture of a potential Nokia maemo device. It could be 1 device or one in a family of devices. Could be a prototype device for all we know.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Why is that in Nokia's best interest? I see a lot of FUD and speculation being created instead while Nokians are not allowed to show off every development of new software and hardware. So they read things here, know better, but are not allowed to correct false information with accurate information. Imagine how that feels.

You say it is in their best interest, but I see negative sides on this so-called best interest. Maybe it is the least evil option for them, and maybe you're right that this is what Nokia opted for, but its certainly not something inherently positive and smart if the case you say is correct.

Maemo.org is not owned by Nokia precisely for this conflict of interest you state. Anyone is free to develop their own hardware running Maemo, or porting Maemo to existing hardware. Anyone is free porting software based upon Maemo, such as Mer, to old Nokia hardware like Nokia 770, Nokia N800, and Nokia N810(WME).

Maybe they are changing the device very much indeed. Maybe they release several devices. Maybe this leak is totally ********. We don't know. We don't have official confirmation.

Besides that the tablet format existed long before Nokia started to work on Maemo or ITOS. Nokia did not invent mobile/embedded Linux with a touchscreen either. Many products did this before, like TrollTech Greenphone and Sharp Zaurus. Tablets existed too in the form of 'Tablet PC' and graphics tablets by wacom. Input devices using touchscreen are also still existing and lots of interesting developments happen in this market.

What did you expect?

You knew about the 5 stages. You knew that eventually Maemo was rather aimed at the mass market. At least, I hope you knew that. I hope you knew that when you bought the device you were buying an experimental product, not an ordinary end user product with a solid production line. I hope you also realize Nokia sells end products (mainly hardware), and more often than not do not update their OS or software anymore for old products/old hardware. Plus they didn't shove us DRM, nor did they have high profit margins like Apple with their products.

Please do note many other corporations which compete with Nokia stop support for product as well. At least not new features are priority; often its reliability and security fixes then. It boils down to TANSTAAFL. You bought a device for a price and you got your cake. Everything you got beyond that was free candy, often open source candy (and some proprietary software, a community platform, ..), but Nokia has no obligation to you to continue its line of experimental products or their support for your device. Or do you think they're breaking some kind of law here?

BTW, we all know Windows XP got a lot of software backported from Windows Vista. There is no legal obligation from Microsoft to do such. Surely though, Windows XP was (and still is) a big, mainline product of them on which they earned a lot of profit.

So if I were in your shoes I'd make sure my hardware was used in its full glory. Be glad open source drivers are developed, for example. Consider to give your hardware away or sell it for nice price to someone who really would use the device. Some Linux kid or Linux developer. Test software, or anything you like, and be glad you're able to put a community supported OS like Mer on your old hardware.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

This could also mean that the particular devices will reach their end-of-life sooner.
The N800 is now in its 3rd year and you can still run the latest official Maemo firmware on it. I somehow doubt we'll be able to upgrade our Maemo phones with the latest firmware in their 3rd year.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

No, you sound like a NIT-picker. :)
SCNR

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

In this case, the letters become too small for me to read. Do not forget that in addition to the font size you set in the software (like the text reader) you also have the physical font size seen by the eye. Given current pixel densities of these screens, any letters readable by human eyes will contain enough pixels to make them smooth, no matter what font you choose.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

(It is not only about being able to read.)

From what I understand the optimization can go in various ways, and this includes the rendering and the font. If you have monochrome (Kindle is) you pick different rendering optimization than when you require a high contrast, or you optimize for LCD instead of CRT. So the smoothing and hinting you pick are very important, and if you take contrast into account this might even change in the case of different light situations (sunlight, dark, ...).

Do you know why the letters become too small to read? Because inherent to fixed width font is that it is optimized for fixed width first and then for readability. So you'd need a higher font size with the fixed width fonts. In my experience terminal applications have a too high default font size, but YMMV. Some people prefer a higher or lower font size than other people (because of disability or age or simply preference). Same true for font preference (but there are obviously very stupid choices which can be made in this regard).

Now, if youth are able to use a 3.5" correct and without problem while elder are not we might have a special market for those elder. The Nokia N900 O-Series (for Old people). I doubt it will see the light though. So perhaps you need a different manufacturer. Or like everyone else you need to see an ophthalmologist and get yourself a pair of glasses for reading texts. Or you continue to whine about your disability without solving the root of the problem, making your problem someone else their problem as well.

Also, the problem lies more in non-English texts. This is about the quality of TrueType fonts in Linux:

The type of screen matters a lot too. You should go to some store and see 2 e.g. laptop products which are very same except the screen. One with glossy screen, one with greasy screen. Each have their positive and negative use cases. While the former sucks in sunlight you can bet its sharper and lighter. Maybe a glossy screen even with its negative use cases would still be the best choice for you precisely for the reason it has a glossy screen.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Welcome to the forum!
What was the other forum where you got some more info on the N900?


Report This | #810
Originally Posted by Team C View Post

I was nervous about joining after reading some of the anti phone people posts and would like to thank Jsa for showing me that I would not get shot on sight!

zfarooq, just a couple more of us and were done for!:D

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Haha! Yea its just us new folk who are stumbling here coz we're curious about Maemo and excited abt a a new OS on top end Nokia phones finally. Symbian changing with the SF will take time.

It was in the mobile-review forum that I heard talk abt the N900...just said something specific about the screen was missing.

No idea what...maybe Haptikos? OLED screen? or Multi touch of some sort being Capacitive and OLED?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

This reminds me of a well known FAQ on baking eggs in a microwave. See, text rendering optimizations only help if you have got a few big pixels and your text looks chunky. If you have got lots of tiny pixels, you do not need to optimize font rendering that much. Unfortunately, if your letters are too small physically, the reader won't be able to see them well, no matter how you render them. And if they are big enough for the reader to see, you are guaranteed to have enough pixels to render text without any tricks.

Never did I say anything about fixed fonts. All I have been saying is that physically small letters are difficult to read. I have no idea what makes you try to work around this fact again and again. There are no workarounds, other than using a magnifying glass. Really. Trust me on this.

Sorry, but this is plain ********, as many people here will tell you pretty soon, I am afraid.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

While I enjoyed your notion of a model N900-O for old people, and I realize that not every "disability" can be catered to by a commercial enterprise, 60% of Americans are farsighted. (Since I haven't read that fast-food or gasoline-guzzling are causes of farsightedness, I would suppose that this figure is more-or-less accurate worldwide or at least in Europe, as well.)

Yes, I wear glasses, I went to my optometrist last month, but that isn't the cure-all you seem to think it is. (And my eyes aren't that bad, first requiring reading glasses at the ripe age of 29.) So drop this line of argument already, especially as (A) nobody is saying Don't make a 3.5" cellphone; they (we) are just saying, Make a bigger-screened tablet, too; and (B) there are more of us than there are of you!

(The way some of you are talking you would think that a person could see a paramecium on a glass slide if he just held it close enough to his eye!)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Not that much, you say, but it might contribute a little bit to provide a more pleasant experience. So does the screen quality. Its all a big sum which adds up to an end experience. So does hinting. Rest assured the hinting on Kindle is optimized for monochrome screen, and it probably has a proprietary font as well. Heck, for the first Kindle one main complaint is the contrast, and by default Kindle will not show non-English characters like Japanese well. In case of English and other Western languages hinting is just less important than where the pixel density is already always good, like on LCD screens.

At the moment they are big enough to read it still matters what kind of font you use! Go use Netscape Navigator 4 on SunOS or IRIX and tell me you find those default fonts readable. It is simply a horrible experience no matter how big or small you put the default fonts. If I compare that to iPhoneOS and MacOSX default fonts these provide a much better experience, in different screen sizes and on different screens.

Why? Eye sight changes throughout life, and it is not uncommon that middle age people have to buy reading glasses or get multi focal contact lenses. I see it here all the time, although it used to be part of the standard insurance which it isn't anymore since 1 january 2009.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

"Or you continue to whine about your disability"

Congrats, you have achieved true offensiveness!

BTW, I don't happen to have this disability; I am "elder", as you call it, but myopic. So all I have to do to read fine print is take off my glasses.

But I wasn't the one you were talking to when you made your offensive comment.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Congratulations! Your new N900 will be shipped right away*.

Before you can receive your device, we need you to sign the following document:

I, PenguinBait, do hereby promise to:

• port KDE 4.2 with full 3D acceleration to the N900, in time for the official launch. I understand that this may mean not sleeping or eating, but that is an acceptable compromise.
• make a KDE right-click solution involving tapping the screen and then giving the device a good shake.
• run for maemo.org council in September 2009.
• tell everyone that a D-Pad is unnecessary.

_____________________
Signed, PenguinBait


* Your N900 is almost ready to go. We only have to build a test device and check if everything is okay, create a mold of final case (can be done once the case fits, takes 30 - 35 days), do CE / FCC testing (can be done once the prototype case is here), and then do stability testing (this will be fun). According to a respectable website, we should have all this done by next week.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Myopia is a disablity and like diabetis and obesitas it is a common one, hence making it accepted/normal. The disability related to opia (eye sight) occuring in elder is called presbyopia; not myopia. The first part of this word in Greek literally means 'elder' or 'old man'. Although it is less common than myopia, myopia is not the problem at hand because myopia is socially accepted and normally solved (glasses, lenses, laser).

The problem you describe here is not about farsight or nearsight. It is specifically about not being able to read text in reading distance, such as a newspaper. You can be farsighted [b]and[/i] not able to read a newspaper or magazine or computer screen. So besides that you can use a pair of glasses for solely that or you buy mutli focal. Sometimes, in work environments the environment is adapted to the worker because of their disability. As you can imagine this isn't cheap.

(First, I'm glad you do care about using your eyes optimally and don't point to other products or personae as being the root of the problem.)

Once you take into account differentiation between different eye related disabilities we can think of how they're dealt with world-wide. I don't know about world-wide either. I know that in my country you can go to a store which sells lenses and glasses and can get your eyes tested for free (as in beer). Only for advanced metrics you'd need to see an optometrist. Heck, you can then even order your glasses or lenses on the Internet where it is far cheaper than in the physical store.

Insurance is mandatory in my country, I don't know about rest of Europe though. This is so that for example when someone who lands in hospital, is covered by insurance, so that person who got wounded is delivered to hospital the hospital can be sure the person pays their bill.

Basic insurance is relatively cheap and you insure what you feel is important although the packages got changed in 2009. So depending on your insurance package you get like 100 or 200 EUR insured for your glasses (or lenses) every 24 months. This doesn't include the frame. Before 2009 you could even file in your tax report the frame and amount of glasses not insured as 'extraordinary expense', which in effect meant that if you are poor you can distract this from your tax expense; this lowered the possibility a poor person could not afford a pair of glasses, but I imagine it was also abused.

As you can see this is different from the United States of America where poor people are not even insuranced which is a strange thought in the eyes of a Dutchman. Meanwhile, right under the Netherlands, in Belgium it is mandatory to vote during elections. We do not have that. So be careful with generalisations. Resumee, in my opinion it is incredibly irresponsible for someone to not care about their eyesight, and I cannot fathom people who are able to buy an internet tablet would not use their money to first solve their myopia. I have the same opinion about presbyopia but I know getting this solved is a bit harder because its more expensive, and it is less known and socially accepted. Although it has always been around.

I question it is marketable, and if the reason is solely the bad eyesight of regulars on this forum I find that quite sad because there is an easy solution for these humans which makes their life in general better instead of only their Maemo-based hardware experience.

Even though I question it is marketable, and I believe its more a vocal group which would otherwise be served by a rather 'dumb terminal' in the size of 770/N8x0 (or even bigger, or foldable screen). IOW: I do not believe its the end of 'the tablet'. And heck, there still are tablets like Tablet PC and Wacon. Just different use case.

If that argument means nothing to you I still say what I said various times already: you should team up with specifications of the preferred hardware and convince the Nokia corporation there is a market for it. What that means is that you will together also argue about other design choices. There will be design choices on which you disagree or have to discuss to get consensus. If you weed that out it will be easier for Nokia (or an other corporation) to understand your position.

Heh there are quite interesting projects in scientific community, like being able to see with your ears by using a camera which then communicates via the nerves of the ear... although we don't have portable microscopes marketed for the general public just yet, but it might be a cool project for a portable micro e-book reader ;)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Actually Bob, we have an N901 waiting for our main man. His patience has been unending so we've decided to bump up the memory to 1GB. And like you said, we should have that out to him shortly. We're just starting the second coat now.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Ah, the Art of Selective Quoting. You take my quote out of context.

The full sentence was Or you continue to whine about your disability without solving the root of the problem, making your problem someone else their problem as well.

The full paragraph was Now, if youth are able to use a 3.5" correct and without problem while elder are not we might have a special market for those elder. The Nokia N900 O-Series (for Old people). I doubt it will see the light though. So perhaps you need a different manufacturer. Or like everyone else you need to see an ophthalmologist and get yourself a pair of glasses for reading texts. Or you continue to whine about your disability without solving the root of the problem, making your problem someone else their problem as well.

In this lemma all I'm doing is providing alternatives to your Holy Path of 4" 800x480 Nokia Internet Tablet, which you fear will not be released. All the alternatives I find relevant, and the one you quote you define as offense I find realistic and helpful. Do you think suddenly newspapers are marketing newspapers for the elder with bigger letters or do you think you need to 'fix your eyes'? Do you think by default a desktop needs all kind of disability related daemons and options enabled? Ofcourse not. You are an exception to the rule. Even if you find it offensive it is part of solutions to the problem including a mentioned O-Series for the elder. That could very well be a 4" tablet like you desire; I do not know. What I mean with that, is that a specific hardware product in past, present, or future other than Nokia 770/NokiaN8x0 is able to serve you.

If you need to take your glasses for myopia off to read a text and this bothers you, you should consider to get multi focal glasses instead. It might be possible you suffer from untreated presbyopia. If you haven't had your eyes checked in a long while I highly recommend you to do so!

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

This is not the thread for this my friend. I have been trying to point this out for 3 or 4 months now... However, since I am primarily a member of the itT community and am not active at any other maemo.org sites my opinion or any contibutions made, are of a lesser value.

Oh, and before anyone jumps on geneven for being negative, you might want to check the last post in this thread. >> CLICKY <<

His post was a positive one in an otherwise negative thread about maemo.org. The thread was started almost 2 years ago and it pointed to some problems that still exist today. :)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

So, over in the Competitors forum, I just posted about 3 XP based phones, that all appear to be in the 4"-5" screen size, and have a lot of the features _I_ would want in a Maemo phone (multiple USB ports, video out, dpad, 4 row keyboards with dedicated number keys or 5 row keyboards, tilt screen, etc.). All in sizes as big, or a little bigger, than an N800/N810.

It would be nice to see Nokia do something along those lines. Slightly bigger than an N810, dpad, 5 row keyboard, tilting touch screen, USB host, USB client, some form of video out, phone, ARM based Maemo phone. I bet it could easily beat the specs and aesthetics of all 3 of the ones I posted about.

But my main reason for posting about them (there or here) was:

desktop OS device, phone, screen in the 4"-5" range.

I thought it might make some of the 4"+ screen advocates feel a little vindication. :-)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Thanks but no thanks.
Windows! no way i am gonna use windows on my tablet device. And i am a big nokia fan.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I think you misspoke here or I am misunderstanding. Maemo is not available for licensing on other hardware.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

That wasn't the point. At all. Not even close. I'm the last person who would suggest ANYONE use a Windows device (of any type).

The point was: 4"+ screen and phone aren't mutually exclusive, with the hope that Nokia might notice this fact. Not that you should run out an get an XP phone.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Ok, I will stop being polite and say it directly: No amount of rendering optimizations, screen quality improvements, and hinting will improve the experience if the letters are too small to read. It's not a sum. It's a threshold for each parameter and only then it is a sum.

Kindle is irrelevant to this thread. Not only it is running a different OS than the tablets, but it has also got a completely different form factor and use scenarios.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

(a) I have had my eyes checked many, many times, including within the last few months. In fact, I had them checked recently by an opthamologist and an optometrist.

(b) I don't need your suggestions about what kind of glasses to wear, thank you very much. I have worn contacts, bifocals, multifocals and single focals, each kind for years.

(c) I only quoted the part about whining because that was the offensive part. When you "put it in context" you didn't remove the offensive part one iota, you just diluted it.

To avoid charges of selective quoting, I left your message above intact. This hurts other readers because it repeats excessive verbiage that doesn't have anything to do with what I am saying. But at least it makes you happy.

To repeat one thing: your language was offensive. If I had included every statement you ever made in your life, it would not have removed the fact that your statement was offensive.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

It really isn't. If they have more than two braincells (and I believe they do) they want a community of users excited about whatever products they are actually making rather than complaining about what could have been.

The "not discussing future devices" policy may actually be working against them in this sense, but they probably (think they) have good reasons for that this time around.

I haven't noticed any Nokians "throwing their weight around" actually. Care to provide an example for those of us who are not awake/don't follow every single thread?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Well, to make the N810 use the Internet Connection Sharing on my WM6 phone, I have to:
- Install some hack on the N810, you know that DUN/PAN problem
- Pick my phone out of the pocket
- Press a key to wake it up
- Press "unlock"
- Enter a pin code
- Press "unlock" again
- Press start
- Navigate to Internet Connection Sharing
- Press "Connect"
- Wait a second
- Press the exit/return button twice to leave the menu
- Hold a button for a few seconds to lock the keypad
- Put the phone in the jacket
- Pick the N810 up
- Unlock it
- Press the connection icon
- Select "Change connection"
- Select "Dummy network"
- Wait
- Lock the N810

This would be easier, faster and more uniform if the unit had GPRS/3G internally.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I think this is a phone issue. Dump the windows mobile, you have an 810???

pull 810 out of pocket
select internet connection
browse the internet

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

My investment (time & money) in my iPhone will disallow me to really want anything to do with a Maemo based phone. iTunes store works great. My trust in the repository or Ovi is just enough to trust it for occasional use, but not for crucial usage... like my cellphone.

And no... the iPhone isn't perfect either.

Besides, if they can't get the dependencies for a lot of apps - community sourced, not Nokia sourced - to be "just right" and in a few cases causing instability, whatnot... do you think I want that on my phone if I have to take a business call?

Heck no. If this points truly 100% to a Maemo phone, I'll have nothing to do with this at all. I like my tablet, I like it separate from my phone, and I like that if I "trash" it with a bad install of something, I'll reflash without missing any important phone calls.

Tablet. Or else.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

volt, even the cheapest BT phone will let you skip all of those steps to get connected. You only have to set it (once) to allow connection without a confirm pop-up, and set it to have BT on in invisible mode. Then leave the phone somewhere and forget about it. For me it even works when the phone is a floor above me.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Well, even if the cheapest BT phone lets me skip it, that doesn't go for my WM6 phone, and I suspect some other phones that use Internet Connection Sharing, too.

I don't see a point in defending having a smartphone instead of the cheapest BT phone. Microsoft considers DUN to be outdated, and DUN support costs the manufacturers extra. The N810 only has DUN. So, with the default setup of WM6, N810 can't connect. The N810 falls into the category "some older devices".

But much thanks to this forum I am still able to connect via the PAN hack.

And while I've been looking at shelling out extra for a Nokia N series phone, those have connectivity problems with my Bluetooth car stereo instead. So it'd be worse, not better. To be honest, I expect I have to replace my Pioneer top model DEH-P9800BT with some cheaper unit to get full bluetooth support with this N900. If it's even possible at all, the N810 doesn't come with A2DP.

So connectivity is a bigger problem than just me having a tricky phone, and the N810 should have had official PAN support to start with.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Nobody is forcing you to buy a maemo phone. If you trash your Iphone with a bad install of something, you have the same problem.

Nokia having a Maemo phone available doesn't mean you have to stop using your Nokia tablet.

p@marketing has already told us they want to stop associating the word "tablet" with their Maemo products. This may or may not mean that they won't make more of the larger ones. Shame if they don't. But I don't see a problem with there being Maemo phones on the market.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

That depends entirely on how you define "Maemo". See Mer, for instance.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Only about half of those steps go away once you've authorized them for automatic pairing. You still have to juggle both devices, turning things on and off (both at the start and end of the session). Add to that that you might be getting messages or calls during the whole process, then it quickly becomes annoying how much you're having to switch back and forth between devices.

Yet, replacing both of those things with a single device that has both your phone and your maemo tablet in one chassis, eliminates all of the fumbling and juggling, and reduces how much pocket space you need.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Are you sure about that? I bet for the right price, it would certainly be available for licensing on other hardware. You just need to make the right offer to Nokia.