Re: N900 specs revealed
 

The control you have over your hardware and software is relative to what it provides and how you are allowed (legally, morally), and/or able to utilize (*) the abilities of the device, and/or your time/money to devote to this. This is true for any device, any tool. Not only smartphones or tablets; also cars.

(*) Goes in several degradations of complexity. Example A) If you're not able to install a Mozilla Firefox on your Windows OS because 1) your admin denies this or 2) you are too stupid for this then you're stuck with the default browser, MSIE. Example B) Soldering modchip for hacking around DRM, coding a deDRM application is more complex

Then make sure you your data securely backed up, or make sure its not usable for 3rd parties.

Also, you could insure it...

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Yes. And that it is exactly why having open platforms is such a big deal.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I just thought one thing and wahted to throw it out.
We keep talking about having open source on these desirable hardwares - so that even it the hardware reaches end-of-life, we can still continue to use it as we wish.

While this is absolutely true and is a good principle, in reality though we eventually abandon the hardware platform as some new device comes in.

Case in point - the Sharp Zaurus was a open platform (partially) and the Cacko ROM and the Opie guys were supporting the Zaurus even after Sharp started abondoning it - but that's just more for the record. Most Zaurus users have surely and steadily migrated to other platforms including the NIT.

One reason is that Open source software alone is not sufficient to keep a end-of-life product alive if there is not a open ecosystem around it - which will keep the users around the device. Without users, the open sourced software ultimately dies as well.

Of course all that I said above is dependant of the fact that the hardware also is not obsoleted - which it naturally does over time.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

There's a big difference between being artificially obsoleted by being excluded from newer software (and not necessarily better hardware) and being naturally obsoleted by better and faster hardware.

The big issue is whether the manufacturer should be the one to dictate whether and how you use the hardware you purchased and own.

It would be like buying a car and every two years, they tell you they're going to stop making parts for each new car they make.. and they FORBID you to buy third party parts or to even make your own to any specs. (This is a large part of the reason why ODB-II interface/protocols were necessary... car manufacturers didn't see it in their best interest to do something that didn't lock you into buying their diagnostics or going to one of their own service shops). re: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05...repair-law-pro

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Oh, I totally agree with you here - that being tied down forcibly by the mfrs is a bad thing. And of course I do see the plus points of open source from the philosophical angle (and I subscribe to the same philosophy).

But my earlier point was that with hardware obsolescence not being a factor, people will still move away from a hardware (albeit slowly) which supports open source software and itself is open to modify when the manufacturer drops the hardware platform from constinous development - and this is mainly due to the fact that the natual development ecosystem of any hardware/software conbination needs both the components - hardware and software to be in active development to sustain the market interest and involvement.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

@nilchak, danramos: What you're both talking about is something that I've been thinking about for a while. I've been using various Sharp Zauruses since the SL-5500 and I've been using Nokia Interrnet Tablets since the N800 was released. There's definitely been a ton of hardware improvements in that time, and there are certainly some things that the Zaurus hardware just isn't capable of doing at a usable speed that doesn't even make the N8x0 hardware sweat (such as web browsing). That being said I think a lot of people would still be using their Zauruses if the Zaurus community hadn't become so fragmented that development ground to a halt. Part of this fragmentation I blame on Sharp for their poor communication with the community (and their eventually abandoning the software they made leaving users and devs no way to move forwards). But that just set the stage: It was the lack of a communication and agreement (and sometimes the presence of ego) in the Zaurus community that really led to so many different, mutually incompatible, device dependent distros. I think for a new dev not only having to deal with cross compiling is a big enough hurdle, without having to figure out how to cross compile 3 different ways and target different versions of different distros, some of which only run on one device.
I think getting to the point where a new developer can target phones, internet tablets, MIDs, and tablet PCs with just one source tree/source package is where we need to be to make developing for Maemo/Mer attractive enough to be sustainable.
Sorry for rambling, but I get so frustrated when I think about all the wasted effort and the early irrelevance of the Zaurus hardware that could have been avoided. I really hope we can work together to avoid that same situation here. :)

-John

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I wish I could thank the above post multiple times...

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

you can:
http://talk.maemo.org/register.php

;)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

The success of future Maemo devices will not depend on their hardware, but on their software "ecosystem". Build up something like iPhone - App store - Itunes (device apps and desktop apps), then add open souce on top of it (and underneath in the OS :-). But open source alone WON'T cut it.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Not sure about that myself. The success of AppStore/iTunes does NOT mean that it is the only or best way of mainstreaming an open source platform. Sure, it's easy to take a look at what's all the rage today (rightfully or not) but you can't mix concepts that easily - saying if it works for iPhoneOS it surely must work for Maemo, too.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I did it for you.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Except that the formula is not JUST working for the iPhone. Android did the same thing, even having contests to load up their app store (the Android Market) with interesting content before the phones even shipped.

And, application ecosystems do seem have a huge impact on any platforms success. You could argue that's a large part of what kept Windows ahead of everything else, even before MS could legitimately throw it's weight around like a monopoly.

Though, to some extent, I think the Application Manager is fairly close to being an Application Market/Store already. It just doesn't have a provision for paid applications (well, once you pay for directly through the market, as opposed to paying later through the individual applications).

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Android is in this respect is much closer to iPhoneOS than Maemo or Linux in general - why do you think they chose the route of managed code ?

Nobody said otherwise. I just don't believe that the iPhone ecosystem model is the ONLY possible successful ecosystem model. If you used the windows example, you see that their ecosystem is very different (and as much as I hate to admit it, it does work, too).

The similarity is very superficial, basically all the similarities end right at the ability to retrieve applications from a common place (which might seem a big deal, but is just the tip of the iceberg ecosystem-wise). You don't even know the LICENSE of what you download (just that it's not of Nokia origin). And that one is a WONTFIX for fremantle right there. And not mention all the apps (can) have root abilities. So no, app manager will not be AppStore, at least not any more than ANY desktop distro's package management tool will.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Whether or not Android as an OS is closer to the iPhone than Maemo is irrelevant. An App store's value is a single tool presented to the user from which they can search for, and find, and manage the installation of, useful applications.

In that regard, the Android Market, the iPhone App Store, the Pre Application Catalog, Maemo's Application Manager, or even Ubuntu's "add/remove" software mechanism, are all in the same niche.

Their ecosystem is different, but the example is that an ecosystem plays a huge role in success. The windows ecosystem predates the popularization of the net, so clearly they built their ecosystem in a different manner. But, the ecosystem is probably a bigger factor to the success of the platform than than the quality of the platform itself (again, look at Windows). What a solid application manager provides is a way to quickly build that ecosystem by letting developers quickly and easily connect with their customers, and visa-versa. In essence, it bootstraps and accelerates the growth of the ecosystem. And that's the connection/point between an Application Store and the success of Maemo.

But it's really the main value that an App store provides. A single place for the users to go, a single presence that the developers need to focus on.

I don't think that's a gating factor for an App Store. I don't know the LICENSE of the apps I install from the Android Market. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single EULA, nor other license statement, from the apps on the Android Market.

The differences between what the Application Manager does, and what is important in an App Store, are, IMO, minor. Could it be better? yes. Does it need to be dramatically different? no. Do they provide the same basic service, and same value add to the user community and application ecosystem? yes.

What are those changes? IMO:

1) better descriptions of the apps (most of them are pitifully brief, and often provide no useful information whatsoever ... I mean, I've seen apps where the description is nothing more than "Blah for Maemo" or something equally inane), including license information.

2) a mechanism for charging for non-free apps, and/or informing them about whether it's totally free and open, just free, charges for support but not use, charges for use, etc.

3) a standardized mechanism for informing the user what security issues the app has (accesses the internet, accesses your PIM information, accesses your IM/SIP/Email/etc. application, runs under priviledged access, etc.), and a "are you sure" part of the dialog, informing them of those items specifically.

The only one of those that would really quire a significant change to Application Manager is #2. #1 and #3 could be worked into the under-utilized package descriptions (though, #3 would probably be better done through flags than textual free form data).

For monetary safety reasons, I would suggest that the only repo that was allowed to do #2 would be an official repo, managed by Nokia, for 3rd party apps. But all of the repos should require conformance with #1 and #3.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

...which brings to my mind: why are the Maemo Application Manager and Maemo Downloads so separate entities? An improved application manager would utilize all the cool information Downloads has, like ratings, comments, screenshots, "hot apps" and so forth. A much more integrated and pleasant experience than the current quite pedestrian list of .deb packages...

And best of all, the packages listed would mostly be Free Software, not the "modern shareware" App Store has (and Ovi Store probably will have).

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

You're missing the main point of my post. Most linux distros (Maemo incl) are NOT RUNNING MANAGED CODE. This means that your data and system are at the mercy of the packages. How are you going to prevent an app having root access not messing with your maemostore account or point 2) ? Who is going to guarantee you (and how) that the point 3) is declared correctly (and respected) ?

The bottom line is that people see this from a user perspective and think AppStore (and thus ApplicationManager) *IS* the ecosystem - but it isn't, it's just a facet, the distribution arm. That cannot be transplanted to other platforms until there is a clear mechanism/enforceable policy on the system level to separate the applications from the OS and other apps (iPhoneOS has this sandboxing, Android too). Maemo doesn't do this, and until it does, all the talk about a payment system, better descriptions, etc are superfluous.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

BZZZZZ, wrong answer ;)

(a not so happy, iMac induced iTunes user).

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

it's a bit sad that this very interesting segment of discussion about app managers and stores will be lost around the page 122 of a thread with an unrelated tipic and origin... If a moderator could take these posts out in a new thread it would be easier to gather the attention of more readers, perhaps including those thinking how to improve the developer offering and distribution channel in Maemo.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

"If a moderator could take these posts out in a new thread"

I was hoping that this would become the "thread that never ended," something like "the man who never returned," of ancient folk song fame.

("he will ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston, he's the man who never returned")

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Time for a 'weekly maemo newsletter'? Could be funded for an individual to monitor mailing-lists, forums, bugzilla e.t.c. For me that seems like a perfect solution (ala Zac Brown and LKML). Oh, Quim, mail me, I have the perfect guy.

A lot of the contention lately stems from a lack of knowledge. A lack of knowledge of bugzilla, iTT, IRC, the mailing lists e.t.c or something equally important. Somebody to highlight the issues would be huge asset to Nokia at the moment, there really is a missing gap there.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

By the way...

Someone suggested that a "moderator" start another thread, which would be more appropriate.

Why is a "moderator" needed to do this? Because you want the color of authority, someone making this thread end?

Because I don't see why someone wanting to start a new thread couldn't just put a note here saying, "This interesting conversation seems more appropriately continued in a new thread, so I've continued it here" and giving directions to the new thread.

For example, when someone in this thread suggested that I take a topic elsewhere, because the discussion was too heated, that is exactly what I did.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Because there was interesting&useful discussion which was clearly off topic in this thread. Moving related posts to a new thread serves the whole community because more people will actually see the conversation.

This thread has become totally useless for any meaningful discussions. You can continue it if you wish.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Maemo could use SELinux. I think each package should include its own SELinux policy, so that each application has to declare what access it needs before being installed. A tool could be written to present the policies to the user in a readible (and simplified) form. This would allow users to decide what applications can do, rather that the device manufacturer.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I wouldn't read too much into that. Moderators have to power to put threads in the right place and I agree, seperate issues should be raised in separate threads.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

This comment is fascinating because it has nothing to do with what I said. I said that a moderator wasn't needed to start a new thread. You said that this thread is useless. Fine, so start a new thread! You don't need a moderator to do that.

For me, this thread is the 'dying of the light' of ITT, so I hate to see it end.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Moderator can move the related posts to new thread. Nobody else can do it. In other forums where moderators actually do something, it's normal procedure.

Nobody is saying that this thread should end.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

The areas that generate the most excitement these days for the zaurus community seem to be Debian and Ubuntu and hopefully one day Mer. The fact that some users are still finding utility in their Zaurii to this day is a testament to the resourcefulness of a handful of users and the excellent hardware Sharp brought to the table.

The zaurus was never intended as a general purpose machine after Sharp abandoned the US market early. The main focus for Sharp was sophisticated dictionaries which required sophisticated hardware at the time. All the cool clamshell Zaurii had to be imported from Japan.

I agree the Zaurus community fragmented and some of the core leaders in the community seem to have abandoned it or moved on.

The derivative of Sharp's original OS is stuck at QT embedded 2.x based and a 2.4 kernel. Some great software was written for that platform, including some decent commercial software. A lesson here is to not rely on proprietary or special purpose tool kits. While Hildon may be great, I think the real power of something like Mer is to be able to apt-get a large amount of software from the ubuntu arm repositories. There is lots of software I use that isn't available under or been ported to Maemo.

Some of the other Zaurus distros went by the wayside when the giants who brought them forth moved on. That's a lesson for the maemo community. Giants and luminaries are great, but when they go, the mere mortals suffer.

Angstrom provides features which have enabled Debian and Ubuntu to run on the Zaurus and allows multibooting with different kernels. But an end-user distribution was not something the developers seemed to care much for. Sometimes I wonder if the developers actively discouraged the end users from being involved. Another lesson for the maemo community, actively embrace your users.

I guess another lesson from the Zaurus is that while a commercial sponsor is great, when the company decides to move on it is the users and opensource developer community that will need to carry on. Nokia will one day abandon the platform, and it will be up to community to continue to innovate and find uses for their beloved devices.

Anyway, enough rambling for now .... What's the record for most posts in a thread BTW?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Splitting , moving, and time syncing posts in a new thread is a giant PITA!

That's why "other forums" have rules about "thread 'jacking", posting in the wrong forum and so on. Moderators who "actually do something" often restrict posting privileges for 3 to 5 days of members who violate these rules. :)

BTW, should a "discussion about app managers and stores" even be in this forum?

Now back on topic...

How about them specs, eh?

:eek:

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

There is nothing stopping a normal user from copying and pasting the posts to a new thread. It is not essential that all posts be eradicated from here. It is only essential that a note saying the discussion has been moved be placed here.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Honestly, I don't even want to try splitting this thread -- even though I agree that it should. I agree that it would be a big pain (unless Reggie knows of a painless way to do it). I could try, but I'd have to find all pertinent posts, etc. Maybe someone who is passionate about the issue can post a new thread and quote some of the useful passages here. That would be helpful.

Thanks,
Tim

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I think geneven already volunteered ^^ :D

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Troublemaker! Let those who want to talk elsewhere take what they need from here and hie themselves thither.

Emergency Calls?
 

:eek: Emergency calls?!? :eek:

Look what I just found in the SDK! It's under "Settings / Restore original settings" if you want to see for yourselves.

I guess this is confirmation that we're getting a phone, eh?


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3662/...70a219c34d.jpg

EDIT: More confirmation from the SDK!

When starting up the desktop, I see this error:

Interesting... A "cellular operator home item," eh?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Moderators should be able to split out the relevant posts from the thread into a new thread (maintaining post time, ownership, etc.). Not sure how it's done in vBulletin, though.

Most forum software has a feature available to moderators that allows them to split out posts from existing threads into new threads. This is not something a regular user could do as seamlessly, and it is what mikkov is referring to.

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Lack of time?

I'm sure Nokia would be more than happy to start integrating something cool like this if they had some community patches to work with.

Re: Emergency Calls?
 

Hehe, now we know what to delete in order to get rid of annoying operator "branding", when it does appear...

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

I know the ability is present. What I'm saying is that I don't think the work is "easy." The functionality might be, but going back through a 124-page thread (right now, that is) and finding the pertinent posts is the tricky part. ;)

Tim

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

It depends on permissions and it is found under thread tools... but again, talking about it here is way off topic. :eek:

Since that door has been opened, let me continue on through... It isn't so much the time syncing as it is editing in references to other posts that are no longer there and dealing with the continued "hey, where's my post" and "what are you talking about", off topic chatter that is now in two threads.

It's easy to sit back and say "that won't happen here because we are all adults" but, some people can not move on until things are in some sort of self imposed, anal retentive order...

IMHO, there seems to be more people like I just described where ever program developers, and code warriors congregate. :)

Now how 'bout them specs, eh?

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Whaaat! Only 3,5" screen! Nokia how dare you! :D

Get ontopic people! ;)

Re: N900 specs revealed
 

Having temporily left my N810 someplace, I notice that I greatly appreciate the bigger screen on the N800. Small things make a big difference.