Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I got to agree with TA-t3 on Modest; it has always "just worked" here. Both POP and IMAP.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Until about a year ago I recommended N8x0 to some of my somewhat or very geeky friends who would have known how to put them in good use, and keep them that way. I was fully aware that the Nokia Internet Tablet software (mainly Maemo 4) wasn't there yet, but I expected the updates to keep on coming and increasing NIT's user-friendliness, esp. with the SSU feature finally in.

Thankfully only one friend ended up getting one. Basically the OS and the most mainstreamish apps have been left to bit rot while the action has moved elsewhere.

Mer promises an improved OS and a long-overdue browser alternative, but it is still uncertain what kind of application compatibility it will come with and when.

So the current version of Maemo, Diablo, was decidedly still-born and that's what most Nokia Internet Tableteers are left with. :rolleyes:

It's such a shame. With up-to-date OS and apps (but with the same level of "marketing") even the N8x0 hardware could have been quite a hit within the enthusiast circles, as an affordable and attractive companion device. Perfect companion for Nokia mobile phones, if they had wanted it to be, while taking some of the momentum off Apple's bandwagon.

When people know, and can trust, that the software ecosystem will keep on improving "at Linux-speed", and that there will continually be new, faster, slimmer and every way improved devices, that will breed success, an "ecosystem" and even brand loyalty.

I don't know if the "N900" will be attractive to me or my ilk, all things considered, but from what I gather it won't be the "eye-turning idiot-proof iphone-killer" that Nokia might wish it to be but a hybrid of sorts. Good luck with it.

It's just too bad that Nokia didn't see any "value" in also hanging onto and further building their lead in the tablet "companion device" niche. When Mer might be good for reasonably carefree everyday use it'll be too late to seriously recommend the aging N8x0 series to anyone.

And if Nokia are still pondering whether to perhaps one day (or year) re-introduce the tablet format, they've certainly managed to squander an amazing amount of goodwill by their handling of the platform.


Cue to Sex Pistols' "who killed bambi"...

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

At least now there are some alternatives, since mer isn't limited to the N8x0. The moses smartq is promising: apparently very open, very cheap, but a bit underpowered (at the same level of the N8x0?). Hopefully if it is successful they can make another generation with better specs.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I am quite certain that there will be ARM-based tablets of different screen sizes (4+",5", 7") available in the future (hopefully from free and democratic countries too... :o ). Hopefully some of them will pay attention to our past Internet Tablet Talk wish list... :)

In the Far-East hand-writing text entry can be quite an attractive option, as well as in various other countries and regions with indigenous scripts but ackward text entry via "western" keyboard. That is just one user case where (selectively encouraged open source) software development could open whole new markets.

Nokia with their global network would have been extremely well positioned to open these new markets riding on their mobile phone reseller and service provider network. (yes, having models with cellular radio is common sense, but it didn't have to happen to the detriment and exclusion of the tablet format)

Anyway, what might hinder Mer's adoptability by other ODMs is its relative dependant relationship with Nokia-steered Maemo. Smaller fly-by-night builders might not care what their gadgets ship with, but larger ODMs might think more carefully where they put their development resources.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Well, I wish someone had told me how maemo-users could easily get copyrighted content onto their devices, but I'm not surprised nobody had anything to offer.

Most of the replies on this thread have been about Nokia-maemo-FOSS and DRM. When I wrote the first post, I didn't even realize that most of what I was saying was about DRMed content. But, of course, it largely is.

It's not entirely about DRM, though. My references to the "ecosystem" ended up including iTunes' podcast selection and a Cisco client. We could add Google Gears and Skype videophone. Those are also parts of the "ecosystem" for which we don't have support. There are doubtless other examples. Cisco Metaframe and Skype (and Google Gears?) are not DRM issues, but they are proprietary matters. The podcasts aren't, and besides the fact that Apple offers a better place to find podcasts, I'll add that when I go to websites, the websites themselves offer their podcasts in a one-click set-up for iTunes whereas I (a non-iTunes user) end up in a (slightly) more cumbersome copy-and-paste scenario.

Now to the meat of the matter. Those who say it is the "fault" of the user to want DRMed material, or who say that NITs are good for other stuff (just not DRMed content), or that content providers run from open source ... the problem is that: if maemo et al. don't make acquisition of DRMed content easier, then they are not going to attract more than a thin sliver of consumers, and if manufacturers such as Nokia can't sell large enough quantities of a device running an OS like maemo, then they aren't going to manufacture that device, and then you and I aren't going to have the hardware we want.

The world of cellphones and portable devices isn't like the world of PCs. We can't just buy the components and assemble them ourselves.

To state the matter in an overly extreme form, if only Apple is selling enough units to make manufacturing worthwhile, there isn't going to be anything other than iPhones and iPod touches. And I haven't seen any ports of open source operating systems to those devices so far.

I'd really like to see Nokia/maemo succeed. Not principally so that I can use DRMed content, but so that I have a cool operating system running on cool hardware with software supported by a cool community. But I don't see Nokia/maemo succeeding -- with cellphones or tablets -- if the great majority of potential users, who do want DRMed content (and may also want Google Gears, or a Cisco client, or ...), can't easily use the devices with the content/services they want.

I may be naive, but I don't believe the primary problem is about open source. I think that Nokia could make a podcast website like Apple's if it made the effort. More to the point, I think that if there were enough maemo devices out in the world, then Amazon would offer a Kindle client, Cisco would develop a Metaframe client, Overdrive would enable libraries to share their digital collections with maemo users, etc.

Until the point at which there are so many maemo devices out there that content providers are anxious to offer clients, there is a chicken-and-egg problem: Nokia needs to have substantial support from content providers in order to sell a lot of units, but the content providers aren't going to give that support until a lot of units have been sold. Nokia better step up and find a way out of that conundrum, sharing development costs with content providers or whatever, or they aren't going to be selling many devices and we aren't going to have the hardware choices we want.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Well stated!

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

There have been some very good discussions here. The sad fact is that whilst the tablet does some things very well (e.g. web), there are too many things it's mediocre at, and what's tragic is that it wouldn't have been too hard too improve the balance.

There are some things which are actually quite good and yet underrated, and could even have been used so much better. For example "videocenter". Why couldn't this have been better integrated with media player? Couldn't it have been used a generic podcast client too?

I'd comment on media player, internet radio streams and shoutcast, but my medialayercrawler's been broken for ages and the "library" is empty.

Disasters: Contacts and general data synchronisation has long been one. Nokia phones have a PC companion package for editing contacts, backing up phones, accessing the data. This should be trivial - even if it was simply bundling winSCP to allow copying data! Go a bit further - why not integrate the bluetooth or usb support so that Nokia's PC suite could access the tablet's files and contacts? Why didn't Nokia set up a jabber server when they launched the tablet? OK, you can use gtalk and others, but why's it taken to so long before "ovi" offered it?

Failure to develop: When I first had the n800 I marvelled at the video calling. How come no effort was made to make it inter-operate with google's PC video calling? A typical example of a promising start which failed to grow. OK, so there's insufficient CPU to do video calling, but it could have allowed, sequential stills? Hmm, maybe that would have been just as frustrating!

Basic functionality fail: Modest mail client, not a modest ambition to write a whole new mail client, but it should called mediocre in the quality control. I regularly have to kill it as it stops detecting new mail for no apparent reason. Couldn't at least this basic primary function be made reliable?

DRM: Nokia did the "comes with music" stuff. I don't like DRM myself, but it would have been possible to have given the user some choice, and put a simply crypto device in which would allow them to lock music and eBooks to it. OK, so they didn't do it, but why didn't they do a deal with Amazon and their DRM-free shop?

Failing early promise: The maps and navigation showed some promise, but are now hopelessly dated. The Nokia map program on my S60 phone and maps are pretty good (I have a tomtom so didn't buy the routing/turn-by-turn stuff), so why is the tablet so poor? Ah, DRM again?

Back to good stuff. The FM radio client is simple yet effective, and its "knowledge" of stations for specific locations has been done well. Some aspects of the home screen are good, albeit limited. The RSS reader is one of the most important apps for me and it works very well, I'd like to be able to tweak a little bit more, I don't use the home screen applet for it.

Bad stuff. The UI can be very wasteful of screen space yet often fails as finger friendly or stylus friendly. I'm not sure you can really have the same UI at all to be both? I have a PalmT3 and I never think "if only it could have a keyboard". In fact, I have the folding keyboard for it and it never got used! OTOH, if the n810 had a better keyboard I would have probably sacrificed the dual SD slots on the n800 and upgraded!

Good: the built-in SIP client for internet calling works very well, it has saved me a lot of money when using abroad. Bad: why didn't nokia partner with some of the many SIP providers from day one to get tablet owners a head start?

it's not as if many of the problems were due to being innovative! Palm had a lot of this stuff down to a tee years ago, even WinMo got it right before the 770 was launched. I think Nokia had a "if you build it, they will come" approach, hoping the community would magic up some really fantastic applications.

--- ok, that's enough!


I'm a very happy tablet owner, but I am careful who I recommend it to - usually only to people who enjoy technology as an end in itself, whereas most people enjoy technology along the way to specific activities. By this, I mean we tablet owners probably enjoy the process of ripping DVDs, tweaking encoders to get exactly what we want and copying files to our tablets (perhaps getting a thrill from breaking CSS too), whereas most people just want to stick a DVD in the drive and hit "rip", then "preview", then "sync" and enjoy the results.

We tablet owners have cracked all the basic technical problems of making stuff work, we need to make it work better without needing tweaks, we need to sort out the integration and we need to make it work reliably. We have the skill, but do we have the time and the will?

--edit-- fixed typos. sorry.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

But it is. How would you go about putting DRM on a platform that is as open as Maemo ? It will be hated and hacked to death simultaneously (and with a vengeance). It's a trade. You either close stuff down (and thereby shoot yourself in the foot with regard to linux and community support) or give up DRM. Anything inbetween, and the community will almost certainly polarize and ultimately result in one of those two scenarios anyway.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I'm not sure you're right. (Not sure I am either.)

It isn't as if all hackers are confined to a Linux island; so DRM providers would have the problem on other OSes, too. Is it technically that much harder to implement DRM with an open OS?

Linux people piss and moan about Skype because it's proprietary, but it's on the Tablets nonetheless. Does lack of community support doom Skype or would it doom DRM? It isn't as if the community would be looked to for furthering its development.

Let's stick to Kindle as an example. (I'd prefer, as a library lover and advocate, to use Overdrive, but Kindle is better known and maybe more relevant.) If Amazon created a Kindle client for Linux (or, specifically, Maemo), what would happen to Amazon's detriment that wouldn't happen if it created a Kindle client for Windows?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Not just DRM. Making locked up software on a platform like Linux is just a pain. You'd have to check and verify all distribution/CPU platforms (as you can't trust the community to do this for you). This in itself is one of the major reasons proprietary vendors don't go linux. It's too small of a market, requires too much effort, and in the end, you will be pi**ed upon because you're not open. Also, the developer-to-user ratio in linux is abnormally large compared to windows land and the LIKE to hack and make/break stuff. Sending in a DRM piece of software in there is just putting their heads in the lion's jaws - and to make matters worse, a DRM crack could then potentially be used in other, more 'accepting' and benign platforms.

This applies to kindle on Windows. Actually, the one that makes sense here is Windows Mobile. Largest user base, used to micropayments, small number of hackers compared to the nomber users... Why bother with linux if you can go to such a market ? There are simply largely incompatible business models at play, and that's why DRM doesn't fit open platforms. Remember, you you want the content, not DRM per se. It's just that the publisher is forcing you through DRM hoops as it is part of it's business model.