The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend

or

It’s the ecosystem, stupid

or

Nokia’s biggest problem


My best friend from college is considering getting an iPod touch or a Nokia Internet Tablet. His work requires that he spend a lot of time on airplanes, and he would like a unit for watching movies and listening to audiobooks and podcasts. eBook reading, music, web browsing and other functions are bonuses. His cellphone is a model provided by his employer, and it’s going to stay that way.

He is very, very smart, but he has never had any interest in tech-tinkering. He, like millions of other people, already has an iPod. He isn’t an Apple fanboy, but he knows how to use iTunes and finds it easy. While he might not be willing to spend a giant chunk on the unit itself, he has no problem with dropping a few bucks at a time to download a movie from iTunes or an audiobook from Amazon. (My guess is that his attitude is common.)

Until I started pondering my friend’s needs, I thought the NIT’s main obstacle to popular success was that it came with limited software and took serious tweaking before it could live up to its potential. I thought that if Nokia had solved those issues “before putting it in the box,” and properly marketed it, that the Tablets would have sold well. Other people on this forum have thought that the biggest problems were that the Tablets were not also phones and were not a readily pocketable size. We were all right. (Yes, even though I’m in the I-want-a-4”-screen-non-phone camp, I agree that there is a bigger market for a pocketable maemo cellphone.) Well, we were right that those were big problems, but I no longer see those as the hardest-to-overcome problems.

Here’s the thing: even though I would set up my friend's unit (say, a new N800) to make it easy and delightful to operate, he would still have to acquire its content on an ongoing basis.

So, take movies. For my N800, I start with a DVD and run it serially through two apps on my PC and transfer it via a file manager by SSH or a USB connection. I don’t see him wanting to do that. He, instead, opens iTunes, clicks a couple times, and then plugs in his iPod, which automatically synchs. With a touch, I think he can just click a couple times and download it directly. He’s used to iTunes; but besides his being accustomed, it is easier. I don’t see him, or many other people, wanting to bother with ripping a DVD.

At this point, he finds the iTunes selection of movies too limited. But that could be remedied any day.

I also can download some movies from my local library, but they are DRMed with something called OverDrive. There’s an iPod client; there isn’t one for the NITs.

Next, he subscribes to audible.com. Apparently it’s very simple for him to acquire audiobooks that way, and there's an iPod client. Audible.com files are not playable on a Tablet. I, on the other hand, have gotten my few audiobooks as downloads from my public library. The library’s audiobooks can be played on an iPod, and probably downloaded directly into a touch. Most of their audiobooks can’t play on the NIT.

(There is, furthermore, a heavy audiobook-user on this forum who finds gPodder/pannuci deficient for the purpose, but I can’t remember why and I couldn’t find his post. If you read this, please tell again what your problem is.)

My friend (Jeff, to make him easier to refer to) has a Kindle, but he doesn’t like it. However, there is a Kindle reader for the iPod touch, so he can easily download ebooks from Amazon and read them on a touch. There’s no Kindle client for the Tablets.

I get most my ebooks from my public library. But they are DRMed and there is no client for the NIT. I have to download the file to my PC, then strip the DRM with a Python script and transfer the file, before I can use it on my Tablet. Do I see my friend willing to bother with this? No. (OK, I possibly could skip the de-DRMing if I were willing to use the MobiPocket Reader in the Palm/Garnet Virtual Machine, but I haven’t tried, and I like FBReader. I sure can’t see Jeff wanting to deal with the MobiPocket/GVM gerryrigging.)

I’m the last person you would think would send a friend to an iPod touch when he has expressed interest in a Nokia Internet Tablet. He jokes that I feel such affection for my N800 you would think it was a dog. Nonetheless, and even though I’d be glad to do all the set-up and ongoing tech support for him, I conclude it would be a mistake for him to get one.

Now, I’d be glad to be told where I’m wrong on all this. Especially if people can tell me, for example, where Jeff, for a price, could download properly pre-formatted movies for a NIT; or that there’s a competitor to audible.com that has an equally large selection and plays well on a NIT; or that OverDrive-protected media, Adobe eBooks, and MobiPocket eBooks actually can be used on a NIT. And while you’re at it, I’d love to know what we have that is comparable in scope and simplicity to the iTunes Podcast selection.

Admittedly, this survey of the “ecosystem” is heavily entertainment-oriented.* (Maybe my friend should be getting an Archos, though I haven’t looked into them and don’t know if they handle eBooks, audiobooks, DRM, etc. well.) But as between an iPod touch and a NIT or N900, it seems to me that Apple has won, and not on the basis of its hardware or its operating system! People may argue that eBooks are a niche, or audiobooks are a niche, but can anyone call ALL mobile entertainment a niche?

Nokia, and every other company that isn’t Apple, really has its work cut out for them. At this point, in addition to matching the simplicity, ubiquity, and breadth of running entertainment on the iPod, these other companies will have to overcome the fact that so many iPod users are accustomed to the iTunes interface.

A great maemo and a great phone (or a great tablet) aren’t going to be enough. It’s the ecosystem, stupid.


*This is all entertainment. But last time Jeff was looking at getting an N800, it was so that he wouldn’t have to lug around his laptop for his limited on-the-road business needs. But that solution was a no-go because the N800 lacked a Citrix client.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I have hundreds of (legitimately purchased) Audible books. I think a Netbook would be a good way to go, playing movies nicely as well

It is said that Internet access is going to be available on planes soon; I don't know if they will allow high-speed access enough to play, say, Netflix Instant movies, but with a Netbook he could play them at the hotel on the other end of the flight, perhaps.

I don't think a Nokia tablet of any kind is really good for watching films; if you've even been in a real art gallery (like the Louvre, or El Prado) they put the paintings on BIG walls, not itty-bitty ones. Films should be viewed on big screens, if you have any respect for the artists that made them and what they had in mind.

For Audible stuff, a Creative Zen player would be cheap and small and have a long battery life.

Or a netbook, or anything but a Nokia Internet Tablet, because you have to have Windows or Mac compatibility.

I play Audible files on my Centro; they work great, and you have a Kindle-like ability to download books on the fly and start listening from anywhere you can get your cell phone to work.

Maybe you'll be able to do that on the N900; I don't know about that.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

For me, this says it all:

Did you know that as an Apple iPhone/iPod touch developer you currently (iPhone OS <= 2.2.1) do not have access to the devices media collection? Supposedly, in the next week or so iPhone OS 3.0 is coming out of Beta and is going to be formally released, and for the first time iPhone OS developers will have access to their customer's media collection(s).

That sounds crazy to your average linux/GNU person. But your average Apple person doesn't know the difference.

There are multiple worlds out there, and some of us can live in more than one. But most of us can't. Some of us know how and are willing to cross between worlds. But most others don't and are not. It's a personal choice and you should only make it for your self. Let your friend choose his world, and if your friend finds his world lacking, maybe then help him with a solution inside his world. If your friend chooses MS or Apple and needs something from FOSS, it's most likely already been ported. Not the other way around. I know things are changing, but based on the examples you gave, that's the current state.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

OP: You have a valid point, and it probably does hurt adoption, but I for one like the NITs partly because Nokia *doesn't* load it up with DRM. If it was individual apps that you could choose to download, that would be one thing, but the content distributors would demand DRM, and to make an iStuff-like experience, that would likely go deep into the OS.
One thought though... I don't know whether it's technically legal in your country, but I would argue that torrenting a movie you already own to save the bother of ripping it, etc., is perfectly ethical. That's what I'd do, anyway. Sure, you still have to convert it, but I find that an SD movie run through 2 passes with tablet-encode doesn't take much more than 20 or 30 minutes, which is fine if you think ahead. I agree with what you're saying, but I'd rather Nokia stayed true to their current approach. Something of that sort may be needed to beat Apple, but personally, the last thing I want is a marginally less restrictive Linux-based iPhone.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I think Nokia could do it all if they partnered with the right people (companies). But who knows-- they could not find a partner for the N97in the US....so who knows... Yes IMO the OP is very right on....

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Why I cannot recommend a N8x0 or N900 to general public.

1) The Nokia N8x0 is not user-friendly enough, outdated/unsupported legacy devices with unfixed problems in both software and hardware aspect while
2) The Nokia N900 hardware specifications are unknown, the launch date is unknown, while there are only tons of speculation.

Why I cannot recommend Apple iPod touch to general public.
1) The Apple iPod touch 1st/2nd generation are legacy products with unknown new hardware on the way, and a new iPhoneOS 3.0 which alters its functionality
2) The DRM and childish review standpoints of Apple's App Store staff often mean the user has to tweak around ie. use jailbreak. You even need that if you want to access the Unix-like environment under the hood. Most people do not require a Unix-like environment though. But the tweaks available are often easily installed. However, is it preferrable to stick with a corporation which more respects its customers? IMO, yes. Nokia might, with their new Linux-based or even S60-based products be able to fullfill that role. And that is why I remain interested in Maemo.

The question then becomes do you wait or do you buy something available now (including reconsidering Nokia N800, Nokia N810, T-Mobile G1, or something from the Nefarious Apple) or do you wait? We only know some things for certain about Maemo 5.0 and a new Nokia N-Series running Maemo 5.0. I decided to not wait an buy an Apple iPod touch; my first Apple hardware product I bought first hand. I wanted to experience finger touchscreen, iPhoneOS, iTunes, MobileSafari, and other Apple products to widen my experience. If you ask me, an Apple iPod touch has a longer live than a Nokia N8x0 because we know iPhoneOS 3.0 will work on it and will deliver it a BlueTooth stack, but the question if it can be jailbroken and the very need for that blurs the preference IMO.

The missing ecosystem you speak of is something we can all contribute to. But is also comes when free software community and proprietary developers accept the platform is relevant and being part of the market. For that, it needs a user base more relevant than a bunch of geeks and hackers, and for that it at the very least requires a new product release both hardware and software wise. So its kinda a chicken/egg situation, like that 5-stage plan of Nokia, it needs an evolutionary path.

As for Apple, last time I checked I was still able to import scene MP3 releases to iTunes, then syncing it with Apple iPod touch. Cause its seen as normal that a DAP can play MP3. Yet, it is also possible to simply legally and quickly buy music using the device build-in iTunes or the host iTunes. That role Nokia Ovi must fullfill. To be fair, it isn't easily possible to sync between 2 iTunes which lacking function sucks!

All in all, I found it easier to tweak an Apple iPod touch than a Nokia N8x0 because its all point and click on the Apple while on Nokia N8x0 you actually have to use your brains when editting config files and reading through threads. I think this is the same for general public. People do not want to jailbreak using SSH and doing all kind of things manually. They want to run a .bat/.sh which does that for them.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I totally agree with you GeraldKo. I would never recommend the tablet to my average friend. Technophiles like me, yes, but no one else. I love pushing my stuff to the limit, and the tablets are good for that. I could care less about things working the first time, or DRM, because I pirate everything that can't be had without DRM.

However, most people are not like that. The iPod is perfect for them. I get a strange pleasure tweaking devices, most people find it a nuisance.

Personally, I think devices like the G1, with a "dual" environment are the best. Its both worlds in one. If, however, Nokia manages to do the same, I will get the Maemo Phone. Just cuz I love this community :D. And Dalvik on Ubuntu means possible Dalvik on Maemo!

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Uhm, sorry, where's Nokia fault in all that? So both you and your friend have DRMed content which you find easy but there're no Nokia/Maemo players for this DRMed content on Nokia devices?
As soon as you've started getting your DRM stuff you have surrendered your freedom to chose hardware.
If you're happy with what you have, it's fine. But if you're now limited in hardware selection, whose fault is that?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Uhm, have you ever played a DVD? Or is your freedom so pure you don't watch those?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Sure, that's a service (convenience) that some people may find useful. On the other hand, other people may find paying twice for the same content just so it can be displayed on a single device undesirable. Shouldn't be a deal breaker either way.

Yes, if your friend wants a device primarily for "consuming" digital media there are many better alternatives out. So what, that's not what the tablets are for, even though they can do a lot of that quite nicely. In fact that's probably also true for any other type of single-purpose device (media player, GPS, ebook reader, games console etc).

Is it really the device manufacturer's job to provide DRM readers and media? I understand Ovi may be blurring the borders a bit, but it's really up to Amazon, Apple etc to provide software that can read their content. I wouldn't even mind if installers for said software came bundled with the official firmware, as long as one is not forced to use them (similar to, say, how skype comes bundled with the N8x0s even though they also come with a perfectly usable SIP client).

The main reason I wouldn't recommend a N8x0 is email support. Modest[1] is just too buggy, claws works but isn't really designed for a mobile device[2] and most non-geeks would laugh if I told them to use mutt or alpine in a terminal. Almost every other email-capable device out there at the moment does it better :-(

[1] The Diablo version. The in-development Fremantle version is beginning to look a lot better.
[2] Not talking about the UI, it doesn't even have support for IDLE[3], let alone proper LEMONADE.
[3] but then again neither does the last modest we're ever likely to see on an N8x0, at least until Mer becomes suitable for day-to-day use

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Ah, yes. Watching DVD films that you have bought on a device you own makes you a criminal.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Under which jurisdiction? EU?

About the Python script which deDRMs: I don't know which one you're referring to but you could copy all the DRM files over in 1 time. Does it have recursive feature to scan multiple files? If not, use find with exec to remove all the DRM. Put that in a sh or bat and you're done, or maybe combine with a program like Tracker/Spotlight. This type of stuff should be automated. The iPhone jailbreak community constantly automates stuff, it just happens to be a very popular community.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Shouldn't the thread name be Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my iTunes/amazon/content addict friend ? It has little to do with the community or even Nokia per se, it's just how content providers generally deal with open source (they run from it. They run like hell).

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

It could even be The lack of DRM: Why I can't recommend N8x0... :p

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I believe the title is correct as is:

Although the example is entertainment/media/drm, I think the premise is sound. The idea that most (capable) phones have a fairly large selection of apps/games/ringtones/videos/etc available through some sort of phone based interface. A few clicks and whatever is installed and *working*.

Most typical (ordinary user) friends ask questions such as:
Can I get my email/work email: Yes, but......
Can I download and read a book: Yes, but......
Can I download music and listen to it: Yes, but......
Can I download a video and watch it: Yes, but...
Can I get directions: Yes, but....
Can I browse the web: Yes...

Despite the current hardware or future hardware, the software is the problem. Most users are conditioned to expect it to work. I think that there are to many "buts" for the average user to consider a Maemo device. A couple of my friends would be able to use it, most would not, a couple wouldn't talk to me after recommending one.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Hm, for most of those I don't see any "but"s.. except for the watch a video thingy. In particular getting email and all that working seems to be much easier on my N800 than for almost everyone else, with their weird devices where it looks like nothing configurable can be found and either it works by luck or not at all.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I'm liking this thread more and more. It's helped make it clearer to me that Maemo is unlikely ready for cell phone prime time. It's not even ready for tablet prime time. Nokia is in a dangerous transitional period, but they're doing the right thing by overlapping tried-and-true technology (N97) with a new phone on a new cell phone OS (N900 on Maemo 5). [grain of salt]It is all about the software and I'm guessing Nokia will be using all of you convergence people like they used all of us tablet people.[/grain of salt] My opinion is we're at least one more generation away from recommending Maemo-based products to friends and family.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

If your friend's focus is on entertainment, then there really is no purpose in him getting a NIT. iPods clearly win that battle, and their UI makes them fun to boot.

However, there are obviously reasons we all use our NITs. Among them are:

1. Customizability and freedom,
2. Web browsers that offer a real internet experience,
3. The ability to make calls,
4. Free software,
5. An active and interested community,
6. The option for a thumboard if you own an N810 (I despise touchscreen typing),
7. The prospect of continuous development and alternate Operating Systems.

NITs, in my opinion, do more than iPods. But that "more" does not necessarily appeal to the average consumer. It's a dabbler's device. If you don't have a dabbler for a friend, what reason to recommend it?

That being said, I would never give up my n810. It is about the closest thing to a umpc at this price point and serves me well. I even nixed my cell phone and got a data plan and use the Skype and Gizmo clients as my phone. The iPod does not offer that flexibility.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Email - Modest crashes my desktop at least every couple of days. Claws isn't very user friendly, I can get it via a web/mobile web interface, but that can be slow/minimal interface.

Ebooks - As long as they don't have DRM, so you have to work harder to find non-DRM books, or go through some gyrations to get other solutions set up, not point & click easy.

Music - Again DRM is a hang up. Download non-DRM, or rip my own, transfer via usb, card reader, etc.

Video - currently most need resized/re-encoded, we do have youtube and flash though.

Directions - need a gps, N810 GPS not very good, buy expensive not updated program, no offline routing, other issues.

I think most average/normal users are looking for easy point-and-click solutions. None of the above really fall into that category. Other options offer simpler solutions that require less work / fiddling. Until Maemo can offer the same, most users will shy away from it. The N900 may alleviate some but not all of these issues

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I think there may be some Europe versus North Americanism going on here. I understand the OP. since much of the digital media on the net is made consumption ready for Apple, just click and download, it just works. Perhaps this is not a big problem in Europe like it is in the States.

But on my side of the world Apple owns the internet...(I exagerate of course) http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives...e_displays.php

This article talks about:
The iPhone/iTouch group led the pack with 43 percent of mobile web and 65 percent of HTML requests, all on an 8 percent share of the smartphone market. Devices with the Android OS represented less than one percent of the market but accounted for three percent of mobile web and nine percent of HTML ad requests. Though none of us here majored in higher maths, we see this as a sign that if Android devices can capture more of the smartphone market, they might be able to outstrip Apple devices in mobile web use.

The disappointing underacheiver of the report was undoubtedly the Symbian OS, which had 52 percent of the smartphone market but generated only 36 percent of mobile web and 7 percent of HTML requests. This is a fairly good indicator that the Symbian OS might - just might - not be bringing the Internet to life in its truest, most usable form.

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=910112

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I got to agree with TA-t3 on Modest; it has always "just worked" here. Both POP and IMAP.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Until about a year ago I recommended N8x0 to some of my somewhat or very geeky friends who would have known how to put them in good use, and keep them that way. I was fully aware that the Nokia Internet Tablet software (mainly Maemo 4) wasn't there yet, but I expected the updates to keep on coming and increasing NIT's user-friendliness, esp. with the SSU feature finally in.

Thankfully only one friend ended up getting one. Basically the OS and the most mainstreamish apps have been left to bit rot while the action has moved elsewhere.

Mer promises an improved OS and a long-overdue browser alternative, but it is still uncertain what kind of application compatibility it will come with and when.

So the current version of Maemo, Diablo, was decidedly still-born and that's what most Nokia Internet Tableteers are left with. :rolleyes:

It's such a shame. With up-to-date OS and apps (but with the same level of "marketing") even the N8x0 hardware could have been quite a hit within the enthusiast circles, as an affordable and attractive companion device. Perfect companion for Nokia mobile phones, if they had wanted it to be, while taking some of the momentum off Apple's bandwagon.

When people know, and can trust, that the software ecosystem will keep on improving "at Linux-speed", and that there will continually be new, faster, slimmer and every way improved devices, that will breed success, an "ecosystem" and even brand loyalty.

I don't know if the "N900" will be attractive to me or my ilk, all things considered, but from what I gather it won't be the "eye-turning idiot-proof iphone-killer" that Nokia might wish it to be but a hybrid of sorts. Good luck with it.

It's just too bad that Nokia didn't see any "value" in also hanging onto and further building their lead in the tablet "companion device" niche. When Mer might be good for reasonably carefree everyday use it'll be too late to seriously recommend the aging N8x0 series to anyone.

And if Nokia are still pondering whether to perhaps one day (or year) re-introduce the tablet format, they've certainly managed to squander an amazing amount of goodwill by their handling of the platform.


Cue to Sex Pistols' "who killed bambi"...

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

At least now there are some alternatives, since mer isn't limited to the N8x0. The moses smartq is promising: apparently very open, very cheap, but a bit underpowered (at the same level of the N8x0?). Hopefully if it is successful they can make another generation with better specs.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I am quite certain that there will be ARM-based tablets of different screen sizes (4+",5", 7") available in the future (hopefully from free and democratic countries too... :o ). Hopefully some of them will pay attention to our past Internet Tablet Talk wish list... :)

In the Far-East hand-writing text entry can be quite an attractive option, as well as in various other countries and regions with indigenous scripts but ackward text entry via "western" keyboard. That is just one user case where (selectively encouraged open source) software development could open whole new markets.

Nokia with their global network would have been extremely well positioned to open these new markets riding on their mobile phone reseller and service provider network. (yes, having models with cellular radio is common sense, but it didn't have to happen to the detriment and exclusion of the tablet format)

Anyway, what might hinder Mer's adoptability by other ODMs is its relative dependant relationship with Nokia-steered Maemo. Smaller fly-by-night builders might not care what their gadgets ship with, but larger ODMs might think more carefully where they put their development resources.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Well, I wish someone had told me how maemo-users could easily get copyrighted content onto their devices, but I'm not surprised nobody had anything to offer.

Most of the replies on this thread have been about Nokia-maemo-FOSS and DRM. When I wrote the first post, I didn't even realize that most of what I was saying was about DRMed content. But, of course, it largely is.

It's not entirely about DRM, though. My references to the "ecosystem" ended up including iTunes' podcast selection and a Cisco client. We could add Google Gears and Skype videophone. Those are also parts of the "ecosystem" for which we don't have support. There are doubtless other examples. Cisco Metaframe and Skype (and Google Gears?) are not DRM issues, but they are proprietary matters. The podcasts aren't, and besides the fact that Apple offers a better place to find podcasts, I'll add that when I go to websites, the websites themselves offer their podcasts in a one-click set-up for iTunes whereas I (a non-iTunes user) end up in a (slightly) more cumbersome copy-and-paste scenario.

Now to the meat of the matter. Those who say it is the "fault" of the user to want DRMed material, or who say that NITs are good for other stuff (just not DRMed content), or that content providers run from open source ... the problem is that: if maemo et al. don't make acquisition of DRMed content easier, then they are not going to attract more than a thin sliver of consumers, and if manufacturers such as Nokia can't sell large enough quantities of a device running an OS like maemo, then they aren't going to manufacture that device, and then you and I aren't going to have the hardware we want.

The world of cellphones and portable devices isn't like the world of PCs. We can't just buy the components and assemble them ourselves.

To state the matter in an overly extreme form, if only Apple is selling enough units to make manufacturing worthwhile, there isn't going to be anything other than iPhones and iPod touches. And I haven't seen any ports of open source operating systems to those devices so far.

I'd really like to see Nokia/maemo succeed. Not principally so that I can use DRMed content, but so that I have a cool operating system running on cool hardware with software supported by a cool community. But I don't see Nokia/maemo succeeding -- with cellphones or tablets -- if the great majority of potential users, who do want DRMed content (and may also want Google Gears, or a Cisco client, or ...), can't easily use the devices with the content/services they want.

I may be naive, but I don't believe the primary problem is about open source. I think that Nokia could make a podcast website like Apple's if it made the effort. More to the point, I think that if there were enough maemo devices out in the world, then Amazon would offer a Kindle client, Cisco would develop a Metaframe client, Overdrive would enable libraries to share their digital collections with maemo users, etc.

Until the point at which there are so many maemo devices out there that content providers are anxious to offer clients, there is a chicken-and-egg problem: Nokia needs to have substantial support from content providers in order to sell a lot of units, but the content providers aren't going to give that support until a lot of units have been sold. Nokia better step up and find a way out of that conundrum, sharing development costs with content providers or whatever, or they aren't going to be selling many devices and we aren't going to have the hardware choices we want.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Well stated!

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

There have been some very good discussions here. The sad fact is that whilst the tablet does some things very well (e.g. web), there are too many things it's mediocre at, and what's tragic is that it wouldn't have been too hard too improve the balance.

There are some things which are actually quite good and yet underrated, and could even have been used so much better. For example "videocenter". Why couldn't this have been better integrated with media player? Couldn't it have been used a generic podcast client too?

I'd comment on media player, internet radio streams and shoutcast, but my medialayercrawler's been broken for ages and the "library" is empty.

Disasters: Contacts and general data synchronisation has long been one. Nokia phones have a PC companion package for editing contacts, backing up phones, accessing the data. This should be trivial - even if it was simply bundling winSCP to allow copying data! Go a bit further - why not integrate the bluetooth or usb support so that Nokia's PC suite could access the tablet's files and contacts? Why didn't Nokia set up a jabber server when they launched the tablet? OK, you can use gtalk and others, but why's it taken to so long before "ovi" offered it?

Failure to develop: When I first had the n800 I marvelled at the video calling. How come no effort was made to make it inter-operate with google's PC video calling? A typical example of a promising start which failed to grow. OK, so there's insufficient CPU to do video calling, but it could have allowed, sequential stills? Hmm, maybe that would have been just as frustrating!

Basic functionality fail: Modest mail client, not a modest ambition to write a whole new mail client, but it should called mediocre in the quality control. I regularly have to kill it as it stops detecting new mail for no apparent reason. Couldn't at least this basic primary function be made reliable?

DRM: Nokia did the "comes with music" stuff. I don't like DRM myself, but it would have been possible to have given the user some choice, and put a simply crypto device in which would allow them to lock music and eBooks to it. OK, so they didn't do it, but why didn't they do a deal with Amazon and their DRM-free shop?

Failing early promise: The maps and navigation showed some promise, but are now hopelessly dated. The Nokia map program on my S60 phone and maps are pretty good (I have a tomtom so didn't buy the routing/turn-by-turn stuff), so why is the tablet so poor? Ah, DRM again?

Back to good stuff. The FM radio client is simple yet effective, and its "knowledge" of stations for specific locations has been done well. Some aspects of the home screen are good, albeit limited. The RSS reader is one of the most important apps for me and it works very well, I'd like to be able to tweak a little bit more, I don't use the home screen applet for it.

Bad stuff. The UI can be very wasteful of screen space yet often fails as finger friendly or stylus friendly. I'm not sure you can really have the same UI at all to be both? I have a PalmT3 and I never think "if only it could have a keyboard". In fact, I have the folding keyboard for it and it never got used! OTOH, if the n810 had a better keyboard I would have probably sacrificed the dual SD slots on the n800 and upgraded!

Good: the built-in SIP client for internet calling works very well, it has saved me a lot of money when using abroad. Bad: why didn't nokia partner with some of the many SIP providers from day one to get tablet owners a head start?

it's not as if many of the problems were due to being innovative! Palm had a lot of this stuff down to a tee years ago, even WinMo got it right before the 770 was launched. I think Nokia had a "if you build it, they will come" approach, hoping the community would magic up some really fantastic applications.

--- ok, that's enough!


I'm a very happy tablet owner, but I am careful who I recommend it to - usually only to people who enjoy technology as an end in itself, whereas most people enjoy technology along the way to specific activities. By this, I mean we tablet owners probably enjoy the process of ripping DVDs, tweaking encoders to get exactly what we want and copying files to our tablets (perhaps getting a thrill from breaking CSS too), whereas most people just want to stick a DVD in the drive and hit "rip", then "preview", then "sync" and enjoy the results.

We tablet owners have cracked all the basic technical problems of making stuff work, we need to make it work better without needing tweaks, we need to sort out the integration and we need to make it work reliably. We have the skill, but do we have the time and the will?

--edit-- fixed typos. sorry.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

But it is. How would you go about putting DRM on a platform that is as open as Maemo ? It will be hated and hacked to death simultaneously (and with a vengeance). It's a trade. You either close stuff down (and thereby shoot yourself in the foot with regard to linux and community support) or give up DRM. Anything inbetween, and the community will almost certainly polarize and ultimately result in one of those two scenarios anyway.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

I'm not sure you're right. (Not sure I am either.)

It isn't as if all hackers are confined to a Linux island; so DRM providers would have the problem on other OSes, too. Is it technically that much harder to implement DRM with an open OS?

Linux people piss and moan about Skype because it's proprietary, but it's on the Tablets nonetheless. Does lack of community support doom Skype or would it doom DRM? It isn't as if the community would be looked to for furthering its development.

Let's stick to Kindle as an example. (I'd prefer, as a library lover and advocate, to use Overdrive, but Kindle is better known and maybe more relevant.) If Amazon created a Kindle client for Linux (or, specifically, Maemo), what would happen to Amazon's detriment that wouldn't happen if it created a Kindle client for Windows?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Not just DRM. Making locked up software on a platform like Linux is just a pain. You'd have to check and verify all distribution/CPU platforms (as you can't trust the community to do this for you). This in itself is one of the major reasons proprietary vendors don't go linux. It's too small of a market, requires too much effort, and in the end, you will be pi**ed upon because you're not open. Also, the developer-to-user ratio in linux is abnormally large compared to windows land and the LIKE to hack and make/break stuff. Sending in a DRM piece of software in there is just putting their heads in the lion's jaws - and to make matters worse, a DRM crack could then potentially be used in other, more 'accepting' and benign platforms.

This applies to kindle on Windows. Actually, the one that makes sense here is Windows Mobile. Largest user base, used to micropayments, small number of hackers compared to the nomber users... Why bother with linux if you can go to such a market ? There are simply largely incompatible business models at play, and that's why DRM doesn't fit open platforms. Remember, you you want the content, not DRM per se. It's just that the publisher is forcing you through DRM hoops as it is part of it's business model.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

In light of what you're saying here and my post #25, do you think there is any hope of a maemo device ever becoming a mass-market success?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Depends on the term mass-market success, of course, but generally speaking, in today's market, no (this being my strictly personal opinion everybody is welcome to (dis)agree with). However, a slow shift in business models (which are long overdue in some indrustry branches) just may make it a mass-market success in a rhethorical tomorrow - like it happened before with linux on the server market. This change, however, won't happen overnight. Remember, there have been loads of Linux phones/MIDs out on the market - it's just that they were never marketed as such. It also needs support of some key players in the field. Enter Nokia with Maemo (or, I must mention, Google with Android), which gives the oft-spoken about potential to really push stuff mainstream. Reminds me a bit of IBM and their Linux transition/adoption.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Response A: It seems it would take some IMMENSE market changes. IBM can make lots of money off of hardware and services; Google can make money off advertising. Unless they manage to slip in (or except when they can manage to slip in) advertising sufficient to make the money they would like, content providers are going to be mighty resistant to doing something like IBM did. Or else there would have to be a market change so huge it exceeds my imagination.

Response B: It seems to me that you would predict there will be no DRM clients offered by content providers to Android. (I don't understand the intricacies of how Android is not as open as Maemo, but apart from that ...) Yes?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Just want to point out that the Hantro GStreamer video encoder plugin on the tablet is already closed, and Nokia did deals with Skype and Adobe for the tablets...

It wouldn't be a particularly big deal to put a couple of closed DRM media player plugins into the mix. They might have to make it closed 'all the way to the speakers / screen', but I really don't believe there'd be outrage in the community over it. Those who don't like it wouldn't use it.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Yes, but the "but"s are everywhere. Manufacturers/marketers just don't mention them. I could write a list of questions that need to be answered with "yes but" for any popular handheld device.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend a Nokia tablet to people unlike me at this point; and I'm not sure about its suitability to my needs these days.

At the risk of going off on a bit of a rant, I don't understand where Nokia is positioning the tablets. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if they understand it themselves.

The NIT is not a consumer grade device. You could say it's lost that battle by including the stylus, but that's a bit of an oversimplification. The default media player on the N800 (and N810 I believe) doesn't support scanning contents of a memory card. You have to browse the directory structure and pick the file. Or you could install a shinier, nicer media player like Canola, except this requires adding a repository... wait adding a what? If not having decent software out of the box won't kill a device in this market, not having an extremely easy way to install things will.

The NIT is not a professional grade device. Lack of email and sync rules it out immediately.

The NIT is not really a tech enthusiast device. I think (and this is subjective) that Nokia tried this angle, but failed at it due to being too Nokia. I think of situations like not letting screen rotation into core Diablo despite being provided with ready-made code because "that's in the next version already". Well that's all nice and dandy, but I don't think at the point when I read through that story we knew whether the new version would run on existing hardware. Even now, it's the middle of 2009 and as far as I know I still have to find and install a recompiled kernel to be able to use a button to do something the hardware supports since 2006. And no one but Nokia can change this. Seriously? I mean, I like to tinker, and I absolutely understand why a corporation would make that decision from a software engineering point of view, but this is far from the only situation where I thought "Nokia just doesn't get it".

This is like closed-source graphics drivers in Linux; they work, unless they don't. At that point, everything that makes the idea of closed-source graphics drivers in an open-source environment a good thing goes out the window, and you're left with a massive fail as you lose the benefits of the open source while keeping the bad things about closed drivers. Maemo and the tablets never contest the Apple-like benefits of a closed, integrated development method, and yet Nokia still wields the sword above the OS's head as we get to deal with outcomes of them having to care about warranty for bricked devices.

There are a couple of specific niche uses. Maemo Mapper is pretty spectacular and makes me want to punch things when Google Mobile Maps redownloads a map of the area around my house for the tenth time. The inclusion of an SSH client with a useful keyboard makes one's life absolutely great if they have a use for it and can deal with a 480 px tall screen. Coupled with a bt keyboard, it makes for a pretty mean, portable note-making machine. If a 4" screen is your thing, it's a nice solution to movie-watching on a plane. But were these envisioned, or did they merely happen? Was the hardware and the software and the idea of the product shaped by some master plan?

(For the record, I use all of the above except for the movies - but if my N800 was to die tomorrow, would I line up for an N810 or wait for an N900, or grin and deal it in other ways? I shouldn't even ask this question to myself, let alone aloud, if Nokia wants a healthy product.)

I don't know: what is Nokia marketing the tablets as these days? Is it an internet gateway that takes a minute to load up Facebook and which has to wait until the whole Youtube video is cached before it can playback? A media player that can't index files on a memory card and that doesn't come with a CD that will install a movie converter on the user's desktop? A device for the geeks that doesn't support USB OTG out of the box? A messaging device without cellular? (And don't tell me about wifi. Being connected everywhere without having to look for an available network is brilliant.)

Does Nokia have a unifying vision for the N900, and if they do, why aren't they sharing it with everyone that will listen? If not, why do they bother; is the technology expertise being developed that valuable?

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Yes, I'm aware the changes would need to be big. But then again, iTunes itself was a major shift from the standpoint that mp3 is the devil's work. Again, think about Nokia - they ARE hardware and services (trying not underestimating various other departments there, but still). This means that they actually have a choice - they CAN become something like a content provider because it's not their root business. Think about Qt and LPGL licensing. I'm not sure that Nokia was the only or major reason for that switch, but it was a step FAR easier for Trolltech to make as part of Nokia when they knew that the loss of direct income can be offset by a larger market acceptance in another department.

No, I'd say Android is a pretty good target for DRM. Androd's license is more company than community oriented - it basically says 'do whatever you want with it'. With truly free (libre) OS, this freedom is granted primarily to the *users*, not the *manufacturers*. So DRM and Android, no problem with that combination.

Qole. After all this time here you seriously think there would be no outrage ? :D Granted, it would more likely be a small percentage who would do the shouting, a larger percentage who wouldn't care and would just leave it be, and of course those who actually welcome it. As for closing it down... I have reservations that it wouldn't get hacked. While we already have closed drivers and parts in Maemo, the trend is doing away with them, not reintroducing more. Also, with content, the Motivation To Hack (I know, not exactly a scientific measure ;) ) is much higher than with a random system component.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Have you ever heard of dvdjohn and decss? He solved that problem.

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

We had that too on Amiga, IRIX, and what not. We had modchips for consoles. It has always been easy to pirate software and crack software no matter if what is used FlexLM or SecureROM or whatever. It gets harder if the user is not in control of the hardware; but not impossible. Because if you have physical access to the hardware it is just a matter of time and dedication. So it was cracked, and it will always be cracked.

DRM, registration keys, pirate hunting are made to make it harder to pirate, so that its not worth the time and effort. A slick interface to buy a product (such as iTunes) or central market place (such as eBay) and central, instant ways of payment (credit card, PayPal) save time and effort because payment works after 1-time user setup, downloading simply works, searching central repository, installation goes transparantly. Meanwhile, yuo don't want to piss off your customers, so you allow them to play their pirated or unDRMed MP3.

One thing which goes beyond this is something such as subscription services such as online games like WoW. As you and I know this game is popular, even though there is a monthly fee. There is a Linux server for this game, but not a Linux client, while there are Windows and OSX clients. Why not? Market demand, as simple as that. You see the same with open source business models; there is simply market demand for the ability to do in house development while still able to buy commercial support. There is tons of proprietary and commercial software available for Linux as well. Countless examples exist. Embedded, such as TiVo, NIT, TomTom, Sat. Receivers, Cars. And proprietary software is rampant on Linux as well. In fact, any website running Linux kernel with closed source software (e.g. PHP) on their server which you access with a web browser could be seen as proprietary software. It works just fine, right? :)

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

What ecosystem is the one you're talking about?
I only see a few monopolies & big companies (Apple, Amazon, ..) mentioned, not a thriving ecosystem at all. In fact, I believe there's a much greater "ecosystem" around Gnome/Maemo than around the iPhone & "the iPhone clone army" -- e.g. I can open way more formats in my Maemo device (yet I agree maybe the most useless ones from a "average Joe" point of view).

Re: The "Ecosystem": Why I can’t recommend an N8x0 or N900 to my friend
 

Just a note, PHP is open source, both the language itself and the main implementation, Zend Engine.

When talking about "the ecosystem" for mobile platform, the prevalent meaning recently is the availability of third party software. (Edit: And, by extension, platform maintainer's support for creation, distribution, etc, of said software.) This has been widely noted, fairly or not, to be Apple's particular strength.

The issues at hand in the original post seem related mostly to format of pre-existing content and habits rather than availability or diversity of software; it might be hard to blame anyone for this, but it is a valid concern nevertheless.