Speed up Application Development
 

I saw this report on PALM app development and its download status

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget....2009-06-24.png

In less than 30 days , they have more than 30 apps in the marketplace.

This makes me think how some ecosystems have a fast development cycle and ramp-up time to get apps delivered while some take a longer time. Which brings me to the subject of Maemo development platform being so hard (from what I read). Its this factor that has put me off from even starting to dabble in Maemo development - and that fact that I need to have a Linux machine to do it.

Earlier for QT and PyQT I remember I could develop either in Linux or on Windows, but with Maemo being so tied down to Scratchbox (and I cant even understand the intricacies of getting it built for the extras repository), this has been one major drawback I believe.

Is this a reason for Maemo apps being much more limited to a slower start and less volume of apps ? What does the community feel ?

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I assume the majority of these apps are not free...?

Commercial developers often work full time (on their apps) and have an extra motivation to have them available - the fact they want to get paid.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I strongly believe that the ease of development strongly influences the ultimate success of the platform.

One of the reasons I like considering Java or Vala for development (powerful IDEs, lanaguages, Vala still tied to Scratchbox, though). And, indeed, why I'm considering proposing a "Developing for Maemo with Vala and a real IDE" talk for the summit.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Good marketing helps too.

Tim

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I had whimsically asked for a way to develop Maemo apps in my friendly Visual basic environment, since that's what I've been using for around 20 years. I was surprised to find that Mono *almost* gets me there. If Nokia had put sincere, serious effort into such alternative development environments (as they did with S60) who knows where we'd be right now...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Sounds like qt to me ;)

Btw, that amount of app downloads is impressive, given the low number of devices out there, and the low number of apps...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

especially when one get ones product to become a fashion topic...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Those figures are not meaningful in any way. Considering there's no SDK yet, those 30 apps were probably written by Palm partners and such with access to pre-release versions and most likely took a lot longer than 30 days to produce.

It would be interesting to see what's available 30 days after the SDK ships, and especially the free/Free apps.

It does have a steep learning curve, mainly due to the large number of technologies/tools one needs to master beyond a basic understanding of C/C++ (autotools, glib, dbus, gtk and all the various gnome libs etc). For better or worse, very few people outside the GNOME community are well versed in all of these. The training material is a reasonable primer, but just introduces the basics and you have to keep referring to upstream documentation.

And no, Qt is not the answer - it will just be another piece of the puzzle eventually.

Well, the target platform is Linux, so nothing unusual there. Similarly you would need a Windows box to write Windows mobile apps and an OSX box for iPhone apps.

Note that Linux will most likely run fine on any machine you already have, and you don't even need to install it (a lot of people are happily using vmware images hosted on other OSs). "Having a Linux machine" isn't the same costly proposition as requiring a Windows machine for Symbian development or an OSX one for iPhone development.

One reason is that so far there hasn't been an implied suggestion from the platform vendor that you are going to get rich by writing Maemo apps (most existing apps are the results of developers scratching their own itches). And that's a good thing IMHO.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Heh, its no visual c++, thats for sure ;)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I doubt my position is typical for much of anyone, but my biggest obstacle was the difficulty in establishing an on-device build environment. Now since all the other platforms have cross-compiling SDKs, this is clearly more of a *n*x user's perspective than a mobile dev's, but as lma mentioned, we've got a platform rather like a typical GNOME desktop, so perhaps this perspective is slightly more broadly represented among prospective developers?

OTOH, I never tried scratchbox, so I'm not saying it's bad; just the expected hassle of getting everything working right kept me from ever digging in and doing it. (I do hope Fremantle will be nicer to on-device work -- there's absolutely nothing about the N8x0s rendering them unsuitable for moderate dev work, and even less about a new OMAP3 powerhouse.)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

two thoughts:

it's not all that bad, really. such a small market, and still: last time i checked i found more apps on downloads.maemo.org than on store.ovi.com for my S60. just to put things in proportion. (the overall number of downloads at ovi is higher, of course, but more than half of it is themes, sounds, wallpapers...)

on the negative side, there's too little effort to bring existing desktop apps to the platform. yes i know some argue you cannot do this and go fighting ideological battles on "mobile UIs" andd stuff... but even if you're on that side: it's better to have a non-optimized, desktop-like application than nothing. also, there's the possbility to avoid the UI-battle by porting libraries und CLI-tools and let others build new apps on top of them.
so it would have been helpful to encourage porting...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

You seem to forget that most GTK+ desktop apps are using the latest libs... which are not available for Maemo 4. Sometimes its easier to rewrite an app than to get it running.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I might be boring by repeating this like a parrot, but this is exactly why I feel PyQt is such a killer combinaton. Easy to code, can develop on any of mac/win/linux, excellent docs and community, has half a dozen IDEs, no crosscompilation or scratchbox required has library functions for pretty much everything and with sticking to a few guidelines it doesn't have to be slow, either. The only reason it won't get that popular on current-gen NITs is because it's off limits for most simple users (it's hard to keep qt on the default system layout, and cloning is still rocket science for many).

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

You can't really compare, but there are more in Fremantle extras-devel already now. :)

Those numbers don't tell much about how easy or complex is to develop on the WebOS. Still your point is good and the topic is really relevant to Maemo.

What are these 30 apps? I couldn't find a complete listing but there is http://www.palm.com/us/products/phon...lications.html

Most of these have a complexity equivalent to a thick desktop widget. And this is not bad! They count as 1 just like... Tear? However, the amount of work needed to have that "1" up is less. We have seen this trend already with the iPhone apps and now with the S60 widgets. Simpler apps for simpler use cases. Less native environment and more runtimes easier to approach like e.g. Nokia Web Runtime.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Good point, I had forgotten...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I think my dream - and an OMAP3430 with oodles of on-device storage will enable this - is:

1. Modern, fast language and APIs making doing the right thing easy.
2. Powerful, cross-platform IDE with proper code complete (perfect for quickly exploring new APIs)
3. Compilation on-device: plug it in (via USB: ad-hoc wlan or zeroconf just don't have the proven track record, but they should be supported too I guess), launch the IDE (or use a text editor if you've not got one)
4. Remote debugging: step through code in your IDE whilst it's running on the device.
5. VNC or somesuch UI duplication so that you don't have to switch your focus from one screen to another.

(2) means you no longer need an SDK environment which doesn't match the device; you don't need to faff with Scratchbox or sub-optimal qemu; you can develop on any OS.

It's just cleaner architecturally. Pre-release development would still require an SDK, as would any development before you get a device, but for the majority of developers I think this'd be a real boon.

Unfortunately, I don't think Maemo SoftwareDevices are really planning on offering such an easy to use path for developers: ESBox looks promising, but is complicated to install; still requires Scratchbox etc. etc. And most comments I've seen suggest that Scratchbox "works for them".

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Quim, I'll put a €5 bet on there being more webOS applications available for the pre by the end of the year than there are for Maemo 5.

webOS has more interest as an interesting device, with a complete UI was shown and has the promise of apps being able to be put together in an innovative way (although sub-optimal in many ways as fms will point out).

Now, I don't work in marketing directly, so I can't say why one device gets more press and excitement than another; but I can recognise it when I see it :-/

What are Maemo Devices' plans for Maemo development? Scratchbox 1 is still the official way with a large bundle, but there are incomplete guides for Scratchbox 2 (and good luck if you're not on x86); Qt is on the roadmap, but there are still lots of outstanding questions (in particular, if I end up focusing on Vala - which is based on gobject/glib; am I on a dead end path); complete and comprehensive documentation seems an afterthought (see Andre's bugs on which Gtk+ widgets are actually supported); ...

For an open platform, there are sure a load of barriers to entry for anyone who isn't already familiar with Gtk+ programming on Linux. (Now, I've got some familiarity, but loads of people don't).

Entice the developers and they build the software which entices the users. (One or two fun accelerometer-based third-party games on the iPod Touch made me seriously consider picking one up)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

For me Maemo SDK+ basaed on Scratchbox 2 is a dead path - it has a locked dependency on a Debian based system, what about everyone else?

After the premature death of Gazpacho for Maemo, There's de-facto no UI builder for Hildon. There's Glade, but Hildon is not supported. I don't expect that to change with the Fremantle release, but who knows - the information from Nokia is scarse on all fronts.

QT is going to be supported in Fremantle, so probably the easiest path for the newbies will be QT's declarative UI and the QT creator. This of course if there's good Hildon support.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

What I don't understand is why Nokia has so many useful RAD-like thingies (like that Web Runtime) but is not actively encouraging them as Maemo capable development platforms.

Also, where's that "Universal QT" with both S60 and Maemo compatibility?

If the only bump in the road to success is writing a "web application engine" (aka reusing Webkit+JavascriptCore) and putting up some nice frontend (aka application launcher) with a local web server to it (aka application manager), as the Palm Pre may show us, then let Maemo have it too, dammit.

Serious apps can use full GTK for the moment. I am yet to use GTK for any "serious app" but if I were to start I would use Vala. Has a "nice" feel to it, don't ask me why.

BTW, declarative QT seems a nice idea to me.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Do Ubuntu/Debian packages count if they install and run? :cool:

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OK, let's limit it to end-user installable applications through the system's own package management which act as the native applications look.

So, on Maemo if you want to include a port it has to be Hildonised, power mgmt aware, installable from Extras and have a UI suited to the form factor of a Maemo 5 lead device.

...but it is only €5, so I'm not too worried about getting the terms exact ;-)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Self-hosting certainly has lots of hack value (I remember salivating years ago when reading about OpenBSD hackers running "make world" on zauri in their pockets), but not exclusively please. In most cases your development workstation will be much more powerful than the target device so cross-compilation is more desirable. Also, an x86 target is still essential for some things (you can't run valgrind on arm for example).

I noticed the scratchbox2-based SDK+ released 1.0 a month ago, anyone tried that yet?

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I hope you note my sense of humor when comparing the Palm Pre App Store with Maemo 5 extras-devel. As said, you can't compare.

My point is that 'ease of development' is one important factor to get a big amount of applications, but not the only one. Sales volumes and the existence of a payment system count as much.

I won't take your bet since it's an unfair one: the Palm Pre is already selling while a Maemo 5 device hasn't been launched. I'm happy inviting you to €5 of your preferred drink in Amsterdam while we keep this conversation going.

More this Saturday.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Indeed. However, I think it's an attitude that's been seen a bit too often (not from you): "Maemo's too different from iPhone OS/Android/webOS for the situations to be comparable". They have better (or certainly seem to have better) development tools. This makes them attractive platforms as a developer.

Fortunately, we're relying on you to take care of the increase in sales volumes; but there's a two-edged sword here. Apple are now advertising their devices on the basis of the additional applications, after all.

I look forward to reading about the details afterwards.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I remember developing for the Zaurus using QT and PyQT more specifically.

I think that was a killer development platform - giving a wide variety of IDE support and - even if the target was a Linux machine (the Zaurus), you could still develop in Windows or Linux. So this argument that a a Linux target requires a Linux dev environment always doent hold. I understand for Maemo, being GTK based and to write native apps that is a plus, but to make any development platform ubiqitous, it should allow to develop in a cross-platform way.

Of course the final compile has to be for the target platform.

I would be very happy with Maemo to have a way to develop and run on a cross-platform supported system - so as to write and develop on Windows on which I am on most of the day. At the end of my development, I switch all my files to a linux machine and compile and build the stuff for the target environment. That would be a great solution.

And this is what PyQt allowed. I am looking forward to when Harmattan release will have QT support.

The other thing that I enjoyed with the Zaurus was that I could write an app for the Zaurus in Python and QT and a "sister" app for the S60 using Python for S60 - such that the two complimentary apps could "talk" and exchange data (it was a travel app). So on the bigger screened handheld you could have edit and additional functions, while the smaller phone app periodically read the latest data (over BT) from the handheld system and worked as a instant display app on the phone (when you are running to catch a train, better to whip out the phone rather than the handheld).

That is where I always wanted to go with app development - make complimentary apps for mobile needs with extensible function on different supported platforms. Where is that dream possible with Maemo ? Maybe Harmattan ?

Edit :
And to note : I see myself as a hobbyist developer for Linux, wioth most time spent on Windows (like Texrat) - not too knowledgeable on the innards of GTK/GObject and all such environments, but again interested enough to learn something a bit easy and fast. So this simplistic wish as above is all from that viewpoint.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Doesn't Palm distribute a VirtualBox copy with each SDK? That'll take care of Windows, OS X or the rest of obscure x86 operating systems users.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

What it needs (IMHO) is a good, well documented in-built language which comes with the machine. E.g. like OPL on the Psions.

Python is the best bet for the tablets, with a link to a nice how to get programming page or the like, which explains how to create basic GUIs, how to access databases, etc. (/me remembers the stuff that people used to use OPL for).

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Great comment.

Tim

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Maybe nokia could fund a maemo widgetset for lazarus (like it alread has a windows ce/mobile one), so I could finally play with the tablet, and using a sane language :D and a wonderful ide to boot

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

No need to wait for harmattan. You can do PyQt on the NITs today ! Diablo is unfortunately a bit of a stepchild in that regard, but PyQt *is* available for it (for users willing to clone to SD/internal). But from Fremantle/Mer on, it's plain sailing.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Any links with a guide on the how-to ? Thanks to you .

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Until the material for the Summit PyQt presentation is ready, the quick'n'dirty way of doing it (on Diablo) is:

1. Clone to SD or internal card (you'll need the space)
2. enable extras-devel in the Application Manager if you haven't done so yet
3. (as root from console) apt-get install python2.5-qt4-gui

It'll pull in the python/qt4/pyqt dependencies and after a minute or two of munching, you're good to go !

PS. Be sure to check http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt for generic Qt on Maemo stuff, most of it is directly applicable to pyqt, too (except for scratchbox, which you don't need :) ).

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Interestingly it says (emphasis mine):

and


If I interpreted it right, it's just a matter of recompiling a qt application (and is that necessary if the application is already compiled for arm, say, coming from a debian repository?), adding maemo specific things is completely optional.
If so, why on earth didn't nokia do the same with gtk? (instead of requiring specific hildonization to make it work right)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Most of the work on qt was done before nokia picked up trolltech, iirc...

as for GTK, its what, 3 years ago now? long time in the tech world, that...

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

You are correct, Qt hildonizes stuff transparently, by default you don't have to change your code. Qt, with it's Mac/Win/X11 multiplatform heritage has quite a history of customizing dialogs and inputs depending on platform to make the application look and feel more native. As for GTK, no idea why didn't they did not do the same but I'm no GTK wizard so I'll let someone with more GTK experience speak up and present the gory details :)

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I think another aspect has to be taken into consideration.

As a recently made unemployed Senior Software Developer I am asking the question 'where should I be developing?'. Should I be looking at Maemo (I am a strong and long standing Maemo user) and Linux (I've been using Linux for 14 years!) or should I be looking where the money is? I see 15 year old iPhone developers making 100,000€ plus from a good idea, I'm full of good idea's! Would I get this from a Maemo app?

I love Maemo, I love what it all stands for and I get that the tablet is way before its time and in the future we will all look back and see it as the beginnings of a mobile (phone) revolution. What *I* as a developer of 10 years commercially (and more personally) see from the platform is a raw playground with nothing to entice me. I say that from the developer who has released *no* software under Maemo but I say that from a consumer who has bought every iteration of the tablet.

I WANT IT TO WORK, but how can we, as a community, entice developers? OVI at the moment isn't it so what is?

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

Everyone is seeing those that make 100000€. No one is seeing the other people down below. ;)

http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story/...y/2009-06-17-0
http://www.stromcode.com/2009/05/24/...pp-store-hype/

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It's a gamble. IMHO, anyone who goes in thinking that they will make ton of money from the App Store, for sure, no questions asked, are the ones who still believe in santa claus.

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

But ...

As a developer, what are the chances?

1) Develop for Maemo and hope the money comes in some way?
2) Develop for Palm and hope the money comes in some way?
3) Develop for iPhone and hope the money comes in some way?

Where would you bet the money if all you had was development income?

Re: Speed up Application Development
 

I would probably choose again 4) the web...

There's not much money in the mobile business yet, at least as independent application developer. If you work for one of those 3 companies though, you'll have more chance to feed your family.