Does Free Fail?
 

[Disclaimer: This was written bitter, sad and depressed about the current state of s/w on the N810]

Now, don't get me wrong, I love my N810 and I think this is a great community but after having been a NIT user for 2-3 months now I can't but to feel the below...

We all love free. Community driven development. Sense of self-empowered and independent from the big, evil corporations.
Thing is..when it comes to a technical device like the NIT that derives its value from functionality from software applications I feel that it may well be a failing strategy.

Individual development is fail?
The vast majority of applications for the NIT seems to be developed by individuals.
While passion and being part of a community is wonderful - a single developer for an application is also a recipe for disaster.
The person gets bored, moves on to something else, 'real life' takes over, he has to sell his device, freemantle looks shiny - you name it - and poof...the development is in 9/10 cases now dead.

Forget about future enhancements, upgrades, support when issues comes up.

As a user I get frustrated and have to spend time looking for another solution, if I can even find it.
In the end, with enough such experiences the feeling that the device is made up of amateur (as in non-paid), unsupported and aging applications may very well be enough to drive current and future users away.

I can't count the number of times I've come across a user-developed application that seems really great...but where the development was abandoned a long time ago.

Had the application(s) been developed by a company/organization that have a contingency plan for the applications (and developers) in their portfolio it might not had been free - but it may have made for a much better user experience.

So where is Nokia?
I love(d) Nokia and it hurts me to see how, at least to me, they have failed to support the NITs. I can't see how they have not continued to keep up relationships with the software developers of pre-installed applications that in way were selling points of the device (Skype just being one example) so that new releases of these applications are made available.
If the manufacturer of a product tells me to F off for long enough, I may well say the same right back at them and take my money somewhere else - and that goes for future products as well.

So it's all bad huh?
No of course not.

I love seeing - and in some cases using - the amazing applications that some very smart people have come up with here. The latest Google Voice application is a great example of that.

Thing is, I have already fallen into a mindset of that;
a) I am beta testing any application I install,
b) Developers are really enthusiastic - but in x months they'll be on to something else and the app will fade away.

So what to do then Mr Smarty-pants?

1) Put pressure on Nokia to support the base applications that were part of the reason we [I] bought the device in the first place (Skype just one example).

2) Be open to selling/purchasing applications. There are tens of iPhone applications I can think of that I would pay for to have on my NIT.
People should be more willing to sell their applications. If you have committed to accept payment for your development three things can/will happen;
a) The developer, gains a sense of responsibility to maintain the application and not drop it as soon as something seems more fun,
b) If the application is good and gains a user-base it may very well be possible and even desirable to hand it over/sell it to someone should the initial developer have to phase out,

3) Nokia should provide incentive to companies to develop [and sell] applications running on the NIT. I really feel that Nokia has let the device and its users out in the cold.

4) Specifically to developers here: Once you have a sufficient user-base - meaning a lot of people that really enjoy and use your application. Start taking some responsibility if you are the only person developing it. What is your contingency plan if you get bored with the application/NITs next week?
I don't know the answer to how to accomplish this but I feel that if the maemo.org community/board embraces user-developed applications some of the responsibility goes back there as well.
Maybe once an application has reached a certain popularity/download count it gets 'tagged' as a 'continuity application'. Source-code is shared and another developer gets tasked with being the 'support' person for that application should it be needed. I really don't know, all I know is that right now it's not working with the approach of;
[Developer]: "Look what I did!"

[Users]: "Oh man this is great. I luv it!" [Clicks thanks]

[Developer]: "Thanks! I'm working on SO many cool additions to it!"

[Users]: "Hey, it's been two months since I saw you post. Any news?"

[Developer]: [offline]


Things doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Enthusiast-driven freeware applications can co-exist with company owned and sold applications. The way it is now, is honestly a frikk'n mess.


Hey, bring that up on the Maemo summit ;)

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

The NITs to this point haven't really been meant for mainstream audiences, so yeah.... you're going to have those issues.

The Fremantle device is the real test now. There's a lot more people excited for the next Maemo device than I've ever seen before. If there's a time for a Maemo device to go mainstream, this is it.

The contingency plan for when a developer is bored and moves on? Open source. If you want an app updated, go ahead and start working on it, or try to find someone that will.

(By the way, there's nothing wrong with not working on a program anymore if there's nothing else the developer wants to do with it. A program doesn't have to be new and still updated to be useful.)

Tell you what... the next application that stops being updated... you're going to be responsible for it. Oh, that's not fair? Well, it's not really fair to expect infinite support from the developer either if he's not interested in working on it anymore.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Let me ask you a similar question, but in reverse. Does non-(beer)-free fail for the same reasons ? Both commercial and free software development act/work differently on large projects, but surprisingly, for small applications, the two are quite similar in that regard (just replace 'get bored' with 'doesn't earn enough money'). There is no more guarantee you'll get a next/improved version of iTrinket no matter how much you liked it than there is guarantee to get a next version of a free mTrinket.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Actually, I think being opensource has one thing on its side. Time.
I think Maemo will snowball slowly into its major existance,.. like firefox, android, OO.o, Linux.. and the rest.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

About that moving from enthusiastic start to boredom and lack of support...
From my point of view - take navicore for example... as I've seen the demo I'm not going to pay for it... it's simply not enough for me to be worth payin g for but - there's no update.
On the other side look at PC scene... did NERO came to the point of being "all included" suite because of user needs? I don't think so. They gained from their product and had to do something not to loose money. BUT - hey ... the first nero wouldn't be so popular if it was simply broken. And that's the way I see many (in general) OSS applications. The first release is far from being useful and - when it's "one man show" - the story ends.
Some say "do it yourself or find someone who will"... wake up - it's been long ago when users were all programmers.
I simply can't fix it and I don't know anybody who could do it for me (please John do it - a great number of people will PROBABLY be thankful). It's simply not that easy.
As some justification - try to convince Adobe to release PS for linux just because You want to use it on this OS.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Thanks, that's exactly my point.

Programming ISN'T easy, so I don't understand the "take, take, take" attitude some users have. If you want program X to be updated and the programmer isn't interested in doing it anymore (because, as you said yourself, programming just isn't that easy), either learn how to do it yourself or find people that will. And if you won't bother doing that, you probably don't really need that update that badly after all, do you? :)

If you are getting bored with your tablet, it's most likely because you bought it to be excited for the updates and new features rather than... you know... USING it.

Photoshop being commercial software pretty much invalidates your point. (By the way, how do you think we got official Flash Players on our tablets and on Linux and on FreeBSD? We asked Adobe.)

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Form my experience the problem is that both models are treated as uniform and excahngeable, when, in fact, uniformly, they're not. A consequence of what you say can be seen exactly from this - server related stuff THRIVES in OSS, exactly because a comparably large part of the userbase IS able to contribute. But when your user audience is a group that has very low potential contributor density, you're in trouble.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I've said it before: the lone cowboy coding efforts are great for quick-and-dirty little apps that make something nicer or easier-- but they don't cut it for mainstream use. That requires TEAMS. Not necessarily teams of coders, but cross-functional teams that include some sort of official Maemo interface.

This is part of my proposed presentation for the Maemo Summit, which I will release whether I get sponsored to go or not. But not until October 10. ;)

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I don't think we should discuss this at this forum. It's up to Nokia executives to find out if it is or is not a failing strategy. What do we care if it is a failing strategy? Do you intend to "save" us by warning that it will fail, and we should get off the boat? Save yourself first then.

If there wasn't anything good about the NITs you wouldn't be here at this forum talking. Let's focus on what is good then...

The idea that a software needs to be always evolving with more and more enhancements and in a continuous development is a marketing trick. Programs can be a single tool that does a certain job and never changes much. Look at xchat for example. Conboy is an application I like much, and I don't expect to see any changes in it. What updates does Hex-a-hop need? Skype itself. It already calls. Great! No video... But that is not "our" fault.

The epitome of the frozen but still useful software is TeX, which received only bug fixes after the version 3.0... We need more durable software like this.

You should, that is good for the economy. Viva el mercado libre!

You think you can easily put pressure on a multi-billion dollar international corporation? And just because you bought am obscure product and some years later there are no cool upgrades? When you bought it, did they give you some kind of certificate that there would be new applications? Did they do anything illegal?

iPod owners are seeing their devices explode in their faces. :eek: Theses users are already having difficulty to put pressure on Apple over the subject. I don't really think we can complain much.

Can you even speak Finnish so we can try to swear them in their native language? :p

Is it forbidden to sell things for the NITs? There is a mapping application that is paid for, isn't it?

So you would be happier if Nokia put lots of restrictions in the development, because it would (in theory) attract professional "mercenary" developers? It looks to me a bit like making a step behind to give two steps ahead... Will it really work?

It's quite easy to receive donations via PayPal.

I don't think so, specially if he considers the money as a payment for the work he did, and not as an investment for future work... If I had a program, and people gave me money because of that program, I would not feel and kind of obligation to continue development, perhaps even to fix bugs... It's different, of course, from an actual software development contract.

BTW, look at the Apple Store, I've heard that some developers are having difficulties at publishing improved versions of their software!... I'm sure this is making some of these developers to become less concerned about making upgrades. So it's not that simple.

As I said before, sometimes a good program with a good user base means actually that there is no need for more development, because the application is simply "ready". A new version will become a new application that will have to conquer its new users...

Unless you are Micros~1 and you devise smart ways to force people to migrate to your new products (obs: the fact it didn't work well with Vista doesn't mean they didn't try!)

The world is a cold place. Living hurts. And few places are colder than Finland!!

They gave us a forum!... They give us employees that talk to us. That is a big deal. What else exactly can they give?... Create an app store? ok... But make the whole system as close as a Kindle that they can go inside and remove content sometimes? I am sure lots of mercenary developers would think that is cool, but that is not what I am looking for personally.

[QUOTE=silvermountain;311779]
[Developer]: "Look what I did!"
[Users]: "Oh man this is great. I luv it!" [Clicks thanks]
[Developer]: "Thanks! I'm working on SO many cool additions to it!"
[Users]: "Hey, it's been two months since I saw you post. Any news?"
[Developer]: [offline]
I think this complaint is quite fair, actually. But I don't think there is an easy solution to this. The FLOSS projects that overcome this problem do it a bit by luck, I think. The big free softwares out there survive by a natural selection, because they can gather enough resources to keep going... It would be great if we had a nice strategy to catalyze the resources and make more free software survive. But I don't know any concrete strategy for this. It's not money, the money thing only works when you have tons of users, and you manage to force them to give you the money (e.g. it's almost impossible to buy a computer without windows, and it's almost impossible to open certain proprietary file formats with no problems.)

Sorry for long post!

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

As members of a community, yes, we care. It isn't 100% up to Nokia.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I take your NIT is your first and only experience with free software. Yes, I don't like the current state of the software for Maemo too, but if you try some "normal" distribution of Linux (e.g. Ubuntu) you will see that great software can be made by free developers.

There several reasons for the current state of the Maemo software and one of them is that currently the Maemo community is small.

This is not a problem for the good free software. When a good free software is orphaned there are always volunteers to take over its maintenance. When a proprietary software is orphaned, it is dead. When the maintainer of a free software does things people don't like, there will be someone to fork the project and resolve the issues. When a company does bad things with a proprietary software the users have no choice but to accept the company's decision.

Some years ago I followed the development of FreeDos. For a long time their COMMAND.COM didn't work properly. At some time the main developer of COMMAND.COM regretfully decided to abandon it. In result two people started to work simultaneously on COMMAND.COM and now it is much better than the proprietary versions in MS-DOS and DR-DOS.

Later the same thing happened to me. I have orphaned software that I have written and despite this this software is used on milions of computers and other people are improving it further even now.

Many people here will not do this even if they use Skype (I don't). It is better to ask for open hardware specifications.

Look what happened to most shareware programs. They became dead when their authors decided something else was more fun. On the other hand no free software with enough user-base has ever died unless better replacement has been found.

Except in practice this doesn't happen.

I don't think developers should worry too much about this. Some other thing is more important - people at Nokia need to learn how to work properly with self-driven free software community. Yes, now they are doing this much better than 3 years ago, but there are still some things to do. I'd like to propose the following good practices of Debian:

• The package maintainers should be able to officially declare a package as orphaned.
• There should be some facilities to support a group of volunteers working for orphaned packages. Very often an important change in the operating system requires to modify a few lines in package, in other cases the bug report contains patch fixing it. This allows a small group (even one person) to keep a lot of packages alive.
• Someone should check regularly for orphaned packages. For example at Debian (about 1000 developers) they are sending email to developers that have not done anything for some time.
• At Debian the section of the packages (Editor, Games, Communication programs, etc.) is not determined by the individual developers. This requires someone with proper view of the whole project.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Of course free fails. (in the sense you're speaking of)

$$$ makes innovation happen (not to mention makes the world go round).

Good thread tho. Bred discussion. Discussion's always good.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I will find it very hard to believe that any device manufactured by a company like Nokia targets a market that will not generate a profit. If that market is 'mainstream' or not is irrelevant as we're talking about a device sold to customers where the support has been less than adequate. So not sure what you mean that 'you are going to have those issues' as much of what I brought up had to do with Nokia's absence.

Tell you what...why don't you re-read what I actually said and check the attitude at the door?

Once again I have no idea if you actually mis-read everything I wrote or if you're on a personal trolling exercise.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Thanks, someone who actually understood the point(s) in my posts.
The lone-cowboy approach is fun and endearing..but in the long run will keep a product very niched AND drive the masses away from it.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I want to point out that I have seen two cases in Maemo where free (as in freedom, not free as in beer) has been all WIN when closed would have been fail.

One of the two cases is the piece of software you're using, the Google Voice app, DialCentral. It was started by a lone coder who got bored and abandoned the project, but it was picked up by two other coders and carried on until today. Only one of them is left, epage, but he wasn't the one to start it...

Another classic example is the Webkit engine for the default browser. The original dev disappeared, but because he had dumped his code in Garage, a new developer was able to pick up where he left off. Well, not exactly where he left off, the original guy made some changes and then never added them to his Garage project so the new developer had to rewrite a bunch of stuff before he could continue on...

See, free (as in freedom, not as in beer) has one big advantage: if it is really a useful, desirable piece of software, someone new can pick up where the last guy stopped. Once a developer of closed software abandons his app, that's it, the app is dead.

When the Maemo community gets bigger, the win in free is going to become clearer and clearer.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Believe it. Get familiar with the 5-step program-- it explains all.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Point is that there is a multitude of applications that are developed to 60-70%, being posted about and discussed and used by many. Then..nothing.

There is an another slew of applications that works well to 95% but with an annoying bug. Developer is gone.

Do I have to use them? No - but sometimes they are the only way to get an application for a particular purpose on the NIT.

Would I have preferred ONE application developed by company X and paid $25 bucks for it rather than four applications that ends up unfinished? Yes. Thing is I also love the community development spirit and to try out new applications - I just wish that there was a mechanism to ensure some level of continuity/contingency of community developed app. Sure open source but honestly that seems to be applicable in these situations in rather rare cases.

It just feels that it's a constant playground with players that gets bored and moves on - and a 'host' [Nokia] that is not willing to provide a) updates to the existing applications or b) new developments.

I'm a NIT user just like you. Granted only with close to 3 months of NIT experience and ZERO Unix experience before I came here. My views are just as valid and I would not be surprised if my frustration is shared by others like me.


No but I speak Swedish and lived in Helsinki for a year.

Sorry but I stopped reading your post after that as I don't think there is a common platform.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I agree with the basic silvermountain diagnosis; the only partial solution that I can think of is that developers should ask for money more often (and asking isn't the same thing as insisting). I was delighted when the Liqbase developer requested donations, and I quickly gave what I could afford.

I guess the reason I think that might help is that it could foster more of a sense of responsibility from developers and users alike.

I don't think that the "well, if you aren't happy start coding!" suggestion is seriously meant. I think it's actually designed as a good excuse for the current situation.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

If $ would be a surefire way of securing quality, I'd concur. But it doesn't. Take a look at the most common commercial NIT apps.

Wayfinder. Outrageous price, eclipsed only by the outdatedness, low quality (or general lack) of maps for even EU countries.

Skype (yes, it's a commercial app even if you don't pay in all usage scenarios). Where do I start ? Video, file transfer... Too 'extra' ? How about something *simple*, like a working DTMF panel for voicemail/call centers or being able to (gasp) receive a message while I'm talking ? No sir, too complex to do right even though I'm a paying customer.

If THESE are the $ apps I'm comparing to, I'll take the 4 unfinished OSS maemo apps anyday. And you DO have finished maemo apps.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

While we are a community, we are not yet a full-fledged coding community.

Something else I'm going to present in my speech:

corporation-------------------community---------------------lone coders
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
coding for $$$----team coding with self-management----WYSIWYG

It's hard to get the full point across in these posts but you basically have the 3 categories of coding above. We have developed into a community, but coding efforts by and large have not matured along with other communal activities (like yakking :D). We are not Ubuntu or Debian... but IMO that's where we need to be. Right now we are stuck between "community" and "lone coder".

We've already hashed and rehashed ad nauseum over the things that got us to this uncomfortable limbo and it's time to move past that and toward solutions. Again, I will cover this in my presentation but I have also posed the necessary questions in my thread on the subject. Please feel free to offer opinions there on what we can do to move forward.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30644&page=3

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Here, here! /wave

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Talk like this makes me wonder if we have reached the point where some sort of certification should be required for apps to even install on the tablets. Now, I'm not thinking anything overly restrictive--- just, say, proof that a project was maintained in Garage or it either can't be loaded at all or some sort of warning comes up...

Or maybe just a "This app was Garaged" sort of badge... :D

EDIT: formal discussion opened here to avoid sidetrack-- http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...859#post311859

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

No, I assure you, it's meant quite seriously. Guess what? We wouldn't have a NIT to even talk about if there weren't people that decided to pick up and learn how to program. I'm not saying everyone HAS to, but if you're going to come here to ***** about the state of open source apps - apps that people generally have written on their own FREE time - you should at least be willing to put up some of your own free time to help... or at least be constructive about the situation.

It's his first time with open source... fine, I can appreciate that. What I can't appreciate is the whole "it better be 100% up to my standards and if it's not, I want to force you to spend more of your free time to get it there" attitude.

For anyone to say that the "why don't you learn coding" response is an excuse seems to be forgetting what we're using here. These tablets are possible only because so many people around the world decided to give their time to learn and write the programs the tablets are based around... or who decided "you know what? I think I can do better".. or someone thought that and then hired someone else to do the job... no excuses needed.

Think about it.

Never mind the most visible parts of the system, such as microb, Tear, modest... I'm talking about stuff like dbus, sqlite, etc... You're complaining about software that was given freely to you. If you needed a car and someone gave it to you and asked nothing in return, are you going to run back and say "hey.. the radio doesn't work! Fix it!"

I know that when you're someone that comes from the Windows world, the Linux world seems like there's a lot of those "radio doesn't work" moments... and it's true, there are. The state of software on Linux is ever changing. Things are different here.

I know you (and I mean the OP here) just see it as "I paid for a tablet and all I got was some half-finished software". If there's anyone that you have a right to complain to or about with regards to the state of software on the tablets, it's Nokia. They sold you the tablet. They give you support. Yes, there are others that share the OPs frustrations.

It's fair to point at Nokia and say "I don't think you guys gave me enough support". It's not fair to turn around to those writing some of the programs you like/love and do it. I'm sure it helps their morale, especially when a lot of people working on Linux stuff (not just tablet stuff) are lone coders. And most of them, I assure you, aren't working for Nokia.

If open source was a failure, this tablet wouldn't have been possible. There are numerous times when an open source project was abandoned by a programmer and other people decided to pick up the slack... or even a non-programmer deciding to rally people behind it.

What I'm asking you to do is just simply show the people who have worked so hard on some of this 3rd party software - finished in your eyes or not - some respect.

They don't owe you (or me or anyone else on the planet) anything and they deserve all the thanks in the world for what they've done.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I seriously can't even begin to understand what post(s) you think you're reading. Your are clearly believing in a tiered (read: elitist) community where the developers are the prime community members and the 'users', at their feet, take what they can get or get shut up (by posts like yours) and told to 'go code it yourself'.

Funny thing is, I had always envisioned that a community was about sharing - and that part of that was to air ones concerns about the future of a device and community one finds valuable so that the community can assess if there's any validity to such ideas.

There is no 'disrespect' intended to any developer but rather simply one voice saying that as a user I love the things that are being accomplished but it scares me how there is no structure at all to how development is maintained (and how Nokia is seemingly ignoring software updates). It makes me as a, I thought at least up until now, community member concerned. Will it eventually cause the end of a device I really like? I don't know but I can tell you that it sure as heck should be dealt with by telling users to shut up and go code it themselves.

Oh and please don't create 'quotes like ""it better be 100% up to my standards and if it's not, I want to force you to spend more of your free time to get it there"" as that is neither a quote in text nor in gist.


What on earth does that have to do with anything in the post that stresses concerns about continuity?

You quite obviously have your own agenda and choose to continue to go down that road so even though I did have comments on the rest of your post I'll exercise some restraints and stop here as I sadly don't think you are able to comprehend the idea behind the post.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I am also a recent user, but I have previous FLOSS experience. I do understand your frustrations. They are not much different from the feelings of new users of free software in other situations, such as desktops.

These problem have been around for some time, and there is no easy solution. There are compromises making the different worlds better and worse for different tasks.

Great! You must have learned some offense like "your vodka is water" or "you suck at deer hunting!" :D

Not sure what you mean. What I'm saying is that when there is a product, and you pay for it, you are just paying for the right to use that specific product. The fact that you are helping the developer to release new versions is indirect, if present at all.

You seem to be wanting to hire people to develop tools that are missing in Maemo today. This is one thing. There is even someone putting up a bounty in another thread.

It is one thing to give money for developed products, as a gratification or as the price to earn the right to use that product, and give money for the development of something new. As I understand, you are saying you wish the software in Maemo were not free, because then you would be able to criticize the developers for not making updates. But this is not so.

I'm not saying I'm happy with Nokia. But the truth is we bought a half baked product hoping it would improve much in a near future. Turns out we were not so lucky. But it's just fair, because the price we paid was for the product "as is".

If putting everything in an app store would make a difference in continuing development, it is not because developers would feel some sort of obligation towards the users who already paid him to make the software they are using. Unless some program has a major bug, and actually doesn't work as advertised, if a paid programmer decides to stop development even tough he promised you some future enhancements, there is nothing we can do. You can only say that programmers could be stimulated by receiving more money selling updates, but I don't agree that programmers would keep enhancing an application based on a payment he already received.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Yes, absolutely.

Perfectly valid. Apparently everyone working on Maemo at Nokia got moved to Fremantle early, causing the lack of software updates for the official software.

It isn't simply saying "shut up and go code it yourself"... I'm saying that if there's something lacking and that you're passionate about it and want to have it, you're going to need to try to push to make it happen sometimes, instead of sitting on the sidelines.

You're concerned about the lack of updates for the tablets... so why don't you try to find a way to get involved in Mer, the community's answer for the lack of updates for the current tablets? Come and get yourself even more involved in making the device you love continue to live on.

I'm trying to do my part right now by pushing a new way to have localization and strings done and checked by the community. If you've got free time, pick something you'd like to see added/fixed or changed and do what you can to get involved.

You don't *have* to become a programmer to do that. There are other tasks that you can also help with, such as testing, localization, brainstorming, etc... Even just filing a bug or two for the features you'd like to see would help.

I know that this whole way of working and community is way outside the norm for the average consumer device. I know it probably hasn't given you the experience you wanted or expected when you bought it. We're sorry. We aren't all exactly happy with the state of the devices either and that's why we're trying to work on it. You have the chance to do the same.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

@silvermountain

if you didn't see crazy-*** arguments ensuing after the creation of this thread, then i dunno....

(I read this thread when it had 1 post, and I saw them coming a mile (or kilometer ;)) away)

I (mostly) agree with you, tho...

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

One thing about opensource developments though, it's not user\customer driven.

And I wonder about long term alignments, especially from the more naive (read: idealistic) developers if\when this thing takes off and Nokia manages to monetize the platform further.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I disagree. Free/Open projects typically have bug trackers and mailing lists where the user/customer can submit bug reports and feature requests. Closed ones typically don't.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Hey silvetmountain, how much did you pay for your N810? I'm guessing about $200?

What other devices with roughly similar functionality are available in that price range?

If you feel that you can find a device with a similar range of software, with more polish and professionalism in the apps, then, seriously, buy it.

As for me, my experience is the opposite of yours. My tablet is like a Christmas present that I get to keep unwrapping, month after month, year after year.

The community developers keep surprising me with unexpected gifts; I keep finding new ways to use this astonishing little thing; and mostly the devs are helpful and friendly.

Zerojay has an excellent point. Ask not what the developers can do for you! Ask what you can do for the developers!

(typed on the screen of my N800 -- in 180 degree rotated left-handed mode in Tear <both community-developed projects>-- on my new, hand-built back deck :D)

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

I - have - to - see - this :eek: Please photo :)

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Sorry ? What gave you that idea (especially seeing all the feature requests and responses in various t.m.o. threads) ? It's not any less user-driven than any other software.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

iPhone on contract.

Archos 7 - as of today on 1 Sale A Day.

iPaq 2210 with CF wifi.

Give me time... I'll think of a few others.

I had, I did, I enjoyed them. However, let's be honest. To say something as such, it lacks professionalism itself. The apps that were created by pros, they're far and few in-between. And not updated at all.

The community sourced apps are great. But they're not polished.

At all. And apathy, patience, compassion, and other emotions don't solve jack either. Name something you've paid almost $400 for - I was there on day one - that withered down to community sourced apps that lacked polish, updates and support.

You'd feel rather damn let down too. That's my experience. And asking devs on this site - you'll likely get shot down if you don't fall into lockstep with the other moderators with huge *** chips on their shoulders and bow down when you post. Simply put, asking for updates, asking for support, asking for things on this board yields very little other than attitude in most cases.

I fear it'll only get worse.

We differ markedly.

Besides Tear, DialCentral, the HomeApps... what else could you be referring to?

Been there, done that. Asked about a wifi radar way back in 2007. Felt like I got booed off stage.

I've asked for video for the camera via RT Comm. Same feeling... "Who needs it? I don't. Your needs aren't like mine."

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

sorry for the double post, but I just realized there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. I was rereading the first post and I noticed that silvermountain said that one of the solutions to the problem is to share the code of projects that are deemed important.

But silvermountain, if they aren't sharing the code, then the app isn't free at all! Free isn't failing there, they're failing at free!

Open source requires shared code. That's the very core of open source. That's what open source means.

When I reread your original post as a request to make more projects truly open source, because without shared source we can't take over when a dev leaves, I go from disagreeing with you to agreeing with you 100%. We need to ensure that the good Maemo apps are made open source, to avoid 'dead' apps.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Aw crap... I went from disagreeing with you to also agreeing - but I went by your original post.

Agreed. There's some code that wasn't made fully open. But YellowNotes and DialCentral were... and look at how much those are great now.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

One of the main reasons why i have an Internet Tablet not an Ipod touch is that all software apart from 1 is free (maps is kinda not free).

I feel that having all the software free for the Internet tablets has been vital for its success.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Discussion steered away from that topic but i'd like to return there.

Few years ago many people (especially in floss world) had a big laugh when certain fat man danced a monkey dance chanting 'developers, developers'.

But you know? He is right. When you make developers happy they will create more, better applications. And I think Nok finally is getting it. Ovi store should make it easier to monetize for programmers on their work (I hope there will be maemo section); move to 'Qt everywhere' strategy which should make market bigger.
er.
er.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Ah, story of the happy developer. I can tell you from experience that commercial is the least happy developer arena. Nobody cares what YOU like or think, if you're sick, if you don't agree, or simply you invested too much time or money into it, went bankrupt, had family issues or whatnot. The user paid 25$ to see you dance and dance you must. Sure, there are star developers who got rich and under spotlights, but then again, who talks about the horde of unsuccessful commercial developers or their apps ? When they go into the pit of abandonment, they take their apps with them and it's like they never existed, along with their Ballmer style 'happiness'.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

The problem with bug trackers and mailing lists is that the information must be "pushed" there by an user/customer. It is usually too big step for a typical (probably non-technical) end-user. He or she just wants a working software, not to spend time to find out where would be a suitable forum to discuss about it.

Companies are "pulling" the feedback by doing, for example, user tests and market research. At least they should, if they want to sell their products. When a customer buys software, he or she expects that it is working.

The question is: how to combine these two aspects and cultures. That is happening, when companies are entering into open source software world.

Re: Does Free Fail?
 

Am I the only one who feels that the critique is actually a single developer vs company approach difference ? A single developer is of course not equally skilled at coding, design, distribution, business and is definitely limited in the ability to do market research and whatnot. Companies work differently as they employ people with complementary skills and thus are able to be more polished and employ more techniques to better their products. This, again, has nothing to do with the measure of 'free' (do you think RedHat, Canonical et al don't do market research ?).