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-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   N900 Specifications (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31005)

texaslabrat 2009-09-13 22:56

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kenny (Post 326431)
I heard some people on a tech podcast refer to the iPhone's accelerometer as a gyroscope. Plenty other phones have these too, so.......
I'm running out of research time. Can anyone authoritatively explain what exactly is a smartphone accelerometer and how does it work?

They are pizeoresistive elements that change their resistance values according to how much mechanical stress they are under. Thus, by measuring how much resistance the element has, you can calculate the force it is being exposed to...and by extension the acceleration (F=ma). There are 3 axis in which these elements are aligned, so you can, with some fancy math, calculate the 3-d force vector the device as a whole is experiencing at a given moment. With the proper axis alignment and equations, you can "simulate" a gyroscope's ability to measure angle changes in most cases.

vinc17 2009-09-13 23:12

Re: N900 Specifications
 
A DigiTimes article from 2008 said that there would be gyroscopes in smartphones in 2009.

texaslabrat 2009-09-14 00:40

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vinc17 (Post 326445)
A DigiTimes article from 2008 said that there would be gyroscopes in smartphones in 2009.

I guess if you were trying to build an inertial guidance system, they would be useful (if you had something against gps, or couldn't use it for some reason). However, the simple task of detecting the orientation of the handset is easily accomplished with the accelerometer (gravity points down...look for the force vector corresponding to 9.8m/s^2 acceleration and compare to baseline axis orientation to get degrees from vertical)..plus the accelerometer does other things as well (in addition to being immune from the need to be reset/calibrated). For just about every use case I can think of, gps + accelerometer + digital compass trumps the need for a gyroscope set for a non-mission-critical, non-military customer. Since those items have other functions that are useful in their own right...I just can't see the justification for adding the cost of a gyroscope set (3 axes would be an additional $150 plus the added challenge of show-horning them in to an already crowded case).

But that's just me...

iKneaDough 2009-09-14 01:14

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by texaslabrat (Post 326438)
They are pizeoresistive elements that change their resistance values according to how much mechanical stress they are under. Thus, by measuring how much resistance the element has, you can calculate the force it is being exposed to...and by extension the acceleration (F=ma). There are 3 axis in which these elements are aligned, so you can, with some fancy math, calculate the 3-d force vector the device as a whole is experiencing at a given moment. With the proper axis alignment and equations, you can "simulate" a gyroscope's ability to measure angle changes in most cases.

By mechanical stress, do you mean that there is moving parts in there (like a ball that rolls up and down when you tilt it), or what else does it do to induce mechanical stress?

Also wondering if information from accelerometer can be used to make a pedometer app.

Do the current cheap $20 pedometers use accelerometers inside or some other technology?

BadMojoUT 2009-09-14 01:31

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iKneaDough (Post 326493)
By mechanical stress, do you mean that there is moving parts in there (like a ball that rolls up and down when you tilt it), or what else does it do to induce mechanical stress?

Also wondering if information from accelerometer can be used to make a pedometer app.

Do the current cheap $20 pedometers use accelerometers inside or some other technology?

There are a couple of designs for accelerometers. The one that texaslabrat describes doesn't really have (easily visible) moving structures or elements per se. Basically, the way that design works is that you get a crystal structure that has piezoresistive properties. That is, the crystal changes resistance depending on the amount of mechanical force exerted upon it (think about the sensations your body feels when the car accelerates and imagine that your body could change resistance accordingly :) ). There are also crystals that have piezoelectric properties which, as you can probably guess, generate a voltage when a mechanical force is induced upon it. There's even a method for building accelerometers by determining changes in capacitance in objects.

And to answer your second question, yes, you can build a a pedometer app that uses the accelerometer. Nokia made one for Symbian S60 3rd devices (I used it on my Nokia N95 and it works pretty nicely). I'm not sure but I'd expect the stand-alone pedometers to use both analog as well as accelerometers to detect steps.

iKneaDough 2009-09-14 01:48

Re: N900 Specifications
 
@BadMojoUT : Thanks for your reply! very informative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMojoUT (Post 326496)
That is, the crystal changes resistance depending on the amount of mechanical force exerted upon it (think about the sensations your body feels when the car accelerates and imagine your body changed resistance accordingly :) ).

Do you mean something like g-force ?

texaslabrat 2009-09-14 01:50

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iKneaDough (Post 326504)
@BadMojoUT : Thanks for your reply! very informative.



Do you mean something like g-force ?

yep...exactly

vinc17 2009-09-14 21:51

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by texaslabrat (Post 326482)
I just can't see the justification for adding the cost of a gyroscope set (3 axes would be an additional $150 plus the added challenge of show-horning them in to an already crowded case).

According to Wikipedia, "Relatively inexpensive (less than US$10 per part as of 2009) vibrating structure gyroscopes using MEMS technology are available." That's far from $150.

texaslabrat 2009-09-14 22:58

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vinc17 (Post 326955)
According to Wikipedia, "Relatively inexpensive (less than US$10 per part as of 2009) vibrating structure gyroscopes using MEMS technology are available." That's far from $150.

Well, I pulled the $150 from the $50 per single-axis MEMS gyroscope I saw priced via a google search. Feel free to show me a source of actual, purchasable gyroscopes of the proper size to fit inside the already crowded case of a phone like the N900 if you like. In any case, as I've outlined...gyroscopes are largely superfluous anyway as the accelerometer can replace them in virtually all use cases you'd want with a phone (with gps and/or digital compass filling in the gaps) plus, as I've also said before, gyroscopes require occasional resetting/calibration and thus are not a "fire and forget" proposition. What is it with you and gyroscopes, anyway? You own stock in a gyroscope manufacturer?

vinc17 2009-09-14 23:43

Re: N900 Specifications
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by texaslabrat (Post 326972)
Well, I pulled the $150 from the $50 per single-axis MEMS gyroscope I saw priced via a google search. Feel free to show me a source of actual, purchasable gyroscopes of the proper size to fit inside the already crowded case of a phone like the N900 if you like.

With a Google Search: US$4 for a single-axis gyro sensor. The size is 5x5x1.5mm. But miniature gyroscopes are very specific, and I suppose that large companies like Nokia would have better sources than a quick search on Google.

Quote:

Originally Posted by texaslabrat (Post 326972)
What is it with you and gyroscopes, anyway?

This isn't just me. Look at all the articles on the web. From the Digitimes article: To make their mobile devices appeal to more consumers, smartphones launched by Nokia, Samsung Electronics, Motorola, LG Electronics, Sony Ericsson and Apple, are all expected to come with MEMS gyroscopes in 2009, the sources said. And why does the PS3 controller have a gyroscope instead of accelerometer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by texaslabrat (Post 326972)
You own stock in a gyroscope manufacturer?

LOL!


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