Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Nathan, I'm ready to import my code to garage.maemo.org. Is it fair to bring it into /src/trunk?

I'll just admit that I'm a little bit nervous; I feel pretty strongly that the app should be kept as simple as possible, and I'm worried that it will accumulate all the features and options that a typical open source project does. Hopefully we can work together to avoid this.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

ARJWright, I think that was Nathan's point; Olive Tree is obviously making their money off of the modules, so wouldn't they welcome another reader, which would allow them to sell more modules?

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Well some of the modules is free; I just downloaded directly from them the ASV for no cost. I just clicked the "free" tab at the top, and picked one.

The point I was trying to make was if their "reader" is free, and our "reader" is free. What are we really competing against? The only reason to be able to read another engines modules directly would be to get "commercial" Bibles on our platform. Otherwise this is a pointless work.

Once we have the ability to do that, the users still have to purchase them from somewhere. If it is <insert vendor> than, they are potentially making more money for actually doing no work.
.
Since I'm not in this arena and you have been for a long time; How can they really say "no" to an offer like that? What arguments are going against our idea?

Nathan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Nope, I'm not sure any of us has a n900 yet on this thread. Are you pulling the latest Qt 4.6 from git?

Nathan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Sure drop it into /src/trunk.

I'm not at all for complicating things, I hate diving into complicated code bases <g> -- but I guess it really depends on what features we want to offer.

What about maybe a "plugin" system. Qt I believe has all the hooks for making a working plugin system. That would allow a basic simple Bible program for release, with little comlication.

But then allow us/others to make enhancements for those who want it. So if person A want commentaries; he downloads the "commentaries" plugin which allows them to be viewed and handled. etc. If person B wants ability to take notes, it would be a plugin. If person C wanted maps; it would be a plugin.

We could technically make the "sword" engine a plugin. Then if we do decide to make a engine compatible with a third party format it is just another "plugin" that is added to the system.

Thoughts? That does "complicate" it a bit more initially, but it would make keeping things a bit more simple for those who actually want a simple reader w/o all the bells and whistles. ;-)

Nathan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Just an FYI, I started praying about this about 2 years ago, althoug not daily. I also asked Olive Tree & Laradian about porting there softeare to maemo, with not results I would like.

I will "TRY" to remeber to pray daily for GODs will on this.

No matter what I think. GOD'S will be done.

Thanks for your efforts
A brother in Christ
Dan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Actually, I've tried the alpha tarball, the the main git branch, as well as the qt-n900 branch.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I'm more worried about program interface complexity than code complexity. I don't want a program that does everything under the sun; I want a simple Bible reader that does one thing (reading the bible) and does it well. Now, in some ways, adding support for commentaries makes sense. Possibly even note taking, though that has the possibility to really add complexity to the UI. But maps?

As far as support for different Bible formats, that can easily be done with different backends - the code is already structured in such a way that would make that relatively easy. If conversions and file formats are your specialty, I would really appreciate if you could do some work to see if we can read the Bible+ format. If you can get even basic code in place, I can tie it in to Katana.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I have no interested in Maps myself; but a ton of Bible readers post it as a "feature" of their programs... (Hence the idea of a plugin, if another developer has a serious interest in doing it -- let them).

I'm more interested in just the "basic" Bible reader also; the only thing that I do want to see is two versions on the screen. I like being able to compare. I also want fast search. ;-)



Sure, that sounds great -- I'll tackle the Bible+ format. ;-)

Nathan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Well I guess that covers it. ;-)

Nathan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

The main thing that I can see that they would be worried about is that there would now be an open-source implementation to read their file format, which would theoretically make it easier to convert the modules to another format and pirate them. This is a bit of a non-sequitur, though, because if their easy enough to read that we can do it, a pirate could also read them without our help.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I've only got a few min, sorry for the brevity in my responses:

Olive Tree, Laridian, etc. make their money off of the cross-licensing of the content that they use to make the modules (they purchase a license to produce and resell to a certain number of persons, they charge you a piece of that licensee fee plus development costs related to making the content fit their format and reader, plus any support costs).

The formats that the modules use tends to also be proprietory as well. Their profts come from selling you a reader that (at one time) has licensed content which may or may not be as featured as that content+reader from another electronic bible software maker. Creating a Bible reader that reads their formats is a catch 22 for them. They get the additional market, but the lose control of (some) of the exclusivity that their reader application (the platform) provides.

Personally, I wish they all used the same format. With the reader being the real differentator. This has been possible for a long time, and has been argued too much. No electronic Bible software company is moving in that direction as the profit margins for this market tends to be slim as it is and most want to keep their current streams instead of opening that up. Ask me in a year or two how opening up the NYTimes has kept them from going under and I'll have my point there.

---
Like some of you, I too would prefer just a basic reader that then uses a plug-in based feature to add the additional functionality. From the side of application design, if you make a solid and simple foundation, adding functionality later becomes easier, and in some cases, smarter. For example, maps. A maps module could be created by NavPress or LivePlanet, where they charge for the module (it costs time and money to develop/test), but it works within app easily. OSS allows that, and it keeps the field open for innovation for all IMO.

Pirating is mainly a concern where people see more value in the product than what it is being charged for. The solution there is really simple ;)

The numbers aren't *yet* in Maemo's favor as being a duitful platform for them to care about (smartphones are 13 or 23% of the total mobile phone installed base; high-end smartphones are smaller than 30% of that number; Maemo is smaller stil; there are over 4 billion registered mobile phone users).

If Katana turns out to be a pefect model for a Bible application (simple basic UI/UX, plug-in system for additional modules, open development), then that would defintely get the eyes open towards more profitable platforms and could endear change to happen. Not that I'm not in favor of that, but it wasn't the reason I started the thread.

---
A Bible application should be simple. Open the app, text is there. One click to search/go-to; swipe to move pages. Any more steps that that is too complicated and takes the focus from reading the Text to navigating the software.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Something to remember is that most of these readers are free for specific platforms (just not Maemo). If we contact people like Olive Tree and just explain what we are doing and that we are adding a plug-in to read their resources and would like to know the best way to refer users to buy their products, my guess is that they will not have a problem at all. We could even ask them if they would be interested in helping. Who knows, if they like the idea of a reader on a platform they do not support, they might even be able to provide some documentation on their format saving us countless hours.

One of the reasons people have conflicts with established companies in situations like this is due to not giving them the benefit of the doubt. Rule number one of public relations is to tell the truth and tell it often to those who are affected.

From purely a business perspective, it would make total business sense for someone like Olive Tree to help a project like Katana. Since they do not make money from their reader, the company could gain a profit (By selling resources) without expending any resources that is a win-win scenario. It is just a thought.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Yeah, that actually was the only thing that I came up with. But I figured at worst case; if we could get no commitment to help us do a open source method from any of them (their are several and maybe one of them would be willing to take the risk to expand their market share w/o any cost to them) -- we could offer to close source this as a plug-in. That might be enough to convince them to allow us to do it with their blessing.

Nathan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

That would definitely be a good alternate option to bring to the table.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

other bible readers like s60bible (free reader) read the Palm Bible+ files without any issues.

I would like a double tap on the screen to bring the navigation menus for the books of the bibles

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Just for people to get ideas from what's going on with other platforms, there's a list of mobile (and not-so-mobile) Bible applications here. In terms of getting acquainted with what is out there for all platforms, this is a solid listing.

Logos just announced their's as well (for iPhone/iPod Touch devices), and its taking a lot of the cues that I've spoken about in terms of UI/UX (disclaimer of sorts: I've posted about this UI/UX several times on MMM, and was hoping that someone would get to doing it).

---
The S60 Bible Reader was developed from the outset to use Bible+'s resources. In some respects, you can call it a port of the original BibleReader, with some edits to bring it more inline with Bible+ afterwards.

--
flux41; I agree that it makes sense. The key is making sure that it makes sense to them. They are a for-profit company who might do well to have Katana fit what their needs are. And then again, it might not fit. I've already started that communication to them, and we'll see what happens.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I attended a religious conference over the weekend where there was a lot of discussion of the state of religious web resources and mobile apps. Talked with a friend who is working on some things for Android about collaborating, so i was hoping to dig into the existing code this coming weekend when i have time. What's the status of the code? Should i be expecting an upload to SVN, or just pull down the new version of rapier whenever it shows up?

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

It looks like Katana's svn repository currently only contain a web page:

https://garage.maemo.org/scm/?group_id=1084

Rapier source code is available in the svn repository:

https://garage.maemo.org/scm/?group_id=200

Fremantle version is in the main trunk.

However, i would not recommand using Rapier as a source of inspiration, or if you do, as a source of inspiration on how not to write an application :-)

I would suggest to dig in some desktop project such as bible time (qt), bp bible (python and wx if i remember correctly) , and xiphos (gtk, and c++ if i remember correctly).

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Ah, so the Rapier update is already available.

I looked at the different sword readers back at the beginning of the thread, but the direction seemed to shift to adapting from Rapier for a start. In any case, i'm on the Katana team in garage, but was preferring to start from the code that has been discussed a bit than jumping in with my own. Nathanael is the admin for the project...

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Small update: Olive Tree (and Laridian, and a few others) are watching this space. No confirmed moves for them to Maemo are coming at this time. Katana is an intriguing project; and its got attention.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Bible App for Maemo 5 - Updated as of 01/02/10

Some updates also posted via Twitter with the hashtags #katanabible and/or #maemo/#maemo5; but this is where the main updates will be for this initiative

The (near-originally posted) Idea
- create a bible application for Maemo 5 devices that will provide the best reading experience, but keeps open the possibility for greater functionality through the use of a plug-in like architecture.
- leverage any lessons learned from Rapier; fix/port Rapier to Maemo 5 and allow it to be placed in a state of easy maintenance without the need of feature updates by its lead developer.

Development (posed as questions)
Develop using what:
- Qt

Who is the development team
- Nathanael Anderson
- Chris Martin
- David Falkayn
- Josh Nisly (He is the one who has actually done all the work on the first alpha)

Where does the project sit:
- katana.maemogarge.org
- http://hurdygurdy.dyndns.org/maemosword/

Who has device(s) to test:
- andrewfblack
- flux41
- joshn53
- revkathy
- twoboxen
- arjwright

For those not listed, please make sure to download and add your comments and thumbs up/down to the respective Extras-Testing sites (listed below).

What does the testing schedule look like (Katana):
- (proposed) 2 alphas (closed feedback), 2 betas (open feedback)

Testing Scripts
- Development Test: Rapier
- Development Test: Katana
- User Test: Rapier on Maemo 5
- User Test: Katana (will follow the same format to the Rapier test above)

Extras-Testing Area-
Rapier
- Katana

-How far does plugin-based system extend functionality:
- Nathanael : So far none -- but the idea is that it would be able to exend most items. Qt has a built in plugin system; we will extend it to allow adding of modules, menu items and controls.

Features (now)
- Sword format
- Bible+ .pdb bibles (Nathanael)
- gesture-based navigation
- search
- compare verses
- bookmarks

Features (later)
- integrated notes (plugin)
- reading of paid modules (plugin)
- maps (plugin)
- social networking (plugin)
- whatever else you folks think of

Project Goals:
- Rapier: ported to Maemo 5, testing is underway (download and comment)
- Katana: (need updated info)

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Correct, the garage repositories were having issues and John couldn't submit the first alpha of it....


Did you want me to package this up still for you, since your computer is having issues?

Nathan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Bible App for Maemo 5 - Summary as of 11/3/09

Development (posed as questions)
develop using what: QT

who is the development team so far:
- Nathanael Anderson
- Chris Martin
- David Falkayn
- Josh Nisly (He is the one who has actually done all the work on the first alpha)

- where does the project sit: katana.maemogarge.org

- who has devices to test: nobody as of yet


- what does the testing schedule look like
No idea. ;-)


- how far does plugin-based system extend functionality
So far none -- but the idea is that it would be able to exend most items. Qt has a built in plugin system; we will extend it to allow adding of modules, menu items and controls.

Features (now)
- Sword format only
- Bible+ is on my to-do list; I've already started working on the format)

Features (later)
- integrated notes: Probably a plugin
- reading of paid modules: plugin
- maps plugin
- social networking: would have to be a plugin.

Nathan

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I have reinstalled my desktop and re installed a vm with the sdk, so i can package stuff (and should be able to push things in extras-devel and extras-testing though i have not yet looked at how this works in fremantle).

Right now, there will still be some issue on a system doing a fresh install because of the lack of /usr/share/sword/mods.d .

Do you think this can be changed in the Sword package (whatever the location of the empty storage template directory) ? If so, let me know where it is. If not, i may add some bits to just create a fresh one within Rapier.

Once this is done, i'll push the package in the extras-devel and see how this extras-testing things works. (I'll not have access to my sdk next week so there is no hurry).

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Nathan I notice you say no one has a device to test it yet if you want me to do some testing on my N900 I would be happy to test it and give you some feedback.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

We would love feedback! All we can do currently is test in the Scratchbox. Do you want me to PM you when we have a .deb built you can test? It might be a little while as we have to make sure we get all the Qt dependencies correct for building it on the BuildBots, so it can be dropped into "testing".

Nathan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Sorry, I dropped the ball on this one. I'll get a update on the build bots later today/tomorrow with the "mods.d" directory.

Nathan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I would love to be on the development team if y'all need an extra hand. Also, if y'all need an area for project management collaboration outside of the Garage. I can set y'all up on my server's project management software.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Yeah just let me know when you have something ready for me to test.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

OK, I've committed my initial work into SVN. Nathan, could you please work on getting the appropriate packaging control files created?

Also, the current version doesn't handle a situation where there aren't any texts available. I'm in the middle of handling this situation by allowing the user to download sword texts from the internet or import a Bible+ file. In the meantime, testers will need to use rapier or some other program to download texts.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

I don't like doing this, and mods are free to handslap if needed, but when some pieces of the disucsison in this thread turned towards copyright and licensing, I began the ardious process of putting some of this together in (nearly) plain language:

Copyright, Licensing, and Mobile Bible Ethics

This should give some perspective to some of the issues related to the content behind Bibles and other copyrighted materials these days.

In the interest of this topic, can comments be taken to another thread (here or elsewhere) or on the linked post.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

the link is broken, you have a " at the start :)
it should be:
Copyright, Licensing, and Mobile Bible Ethics

very interesting article to read! well done :)

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

What I understand you to be saying, as it relates to Katana, is that e-Sword, etc. can't legally allow us to use their modules, since they only have a license from the copyright holders of the texts to use the modules inside their application; for us to use them, they would need to renegotiate with the copyright holders.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Don't want to divert this thread, I'll quote and answer at MMM.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Good article. In the case of Katana, the mods that would have copyright issues would need to have buy-in from the companies that own rights to the materials (OliveTree, E-Sword, etc). I know in the case of OliveTree, they already support every major mobile platform except Maemo. So if we work with them to provide a closed source module that handled their format, then they could work the licensing on that module just like they do with their readers. I'm no lawyer, but I think that would stand up to a lot of scrutiny.

As much as I love open source modules and applications, I do realize that in some cases like this, we will have problems getting buy-in from companies that have to abide by their content licenses without allowing closed source modules for their content.
Just my 2 cents.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Just got notice that I'll be one of the speakers at BIbleTech next March. If I can get my hands on an N900 before then, I'd love to be able to show off this app (and community's involvement towards it) as part of my mobile-induced presentation.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

You guys have a killer start on this! If you need help talking to Laridian, I think I might be able to help ;)

I am currently refreshing my old C++ knowledge and playing around with Qt, so I may be able to help at some point. I have a lot of ideas about the social aspect, so I may start drafting something up for the social plugin. I pre-ordered the N900, so hopefully I can do some real life testing/on-device development in the near future.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Yes, talk to Laridian pretty please. I believe though they are already looking at this thread some - not necessarly to do anything, but in respect to watching trends in the mobile development space and where to future-plan.

Re: Bible App for Maemo 5 Device(s)
 

Sorry for the delay I had some family issues crop up. I've submitted a new version today with this change.

Nathan