Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

@ Songwillie, thanks for actually giving my ideas some thought. That's all I wanted. I'm not the only person like me, either. To say the N900 isn't for me is akin to saying smartphone users like me have no business in the tablet territory, and that's making assumptions based on assumptions.

@ Mandibella, I really appreciate your position and polite response. I think you jump to conclusions on the intended design thing, though. By Maemo being FOSS, it is agile and adaptable for OUR needs, not just the geek developers with high paying jobs and wifi.

The N900 is a PC, pure and simple. I use it as I want, including rotating my screen for browsing. Maemo is designed to become whatever I want, and I'm telling you, I'll find a real developer that loves challenges to get my device to have ASR. I'm willing to bet users will come out in droves wanting a similar feature.

Nokia has different OSes for different features. OK. Does that mean Maemo is only for what it does out of the box? Or can we make it better? What is the difference between Maemo 5 and the WinMo Touch Pro 2? Its open nature and ease of developing apps, but other than that, not much. So why is an advantageous feature on the TP2 a hinderance on Maemo? Why aren't we focused on removing those disadvantages, especially ones not limited by the form factor?

The N900 IS a smartphone and IS a web tablet. It should behave like one as well as possible. ASR is a part of life now. How is ASR so diametrically opposed to the design of the N900, especially since its now a phone? Its no different than the N97, and it gets along just fine. How are they so different? Isn't the N97 just an N900 Lite? Shouldn't the N900 be a total upgrade in all respects? It is so far, and when ASR comes (It will, even if some devs are lazy or incapable) it will come full circle.

I'm telling you, instead of us saying, "Go get an iPhone or something else", we better be saying, "We'll have to wait on a community solution for ASR, but it will be addressed in Maemo 6", or the blogs and media will roast the N900 and use it as ammo. No need for bad press.

I'm ready to roast it myself on this small caveat, but only because of the cold reception some of the developers here give new guys. They don't teach manners at Comp Sci programs, I guess. I have yet to hear anyone say,"Let's get a conformation from Nokia that ASR is or isn't coming, or a plan to implement it ourselves" which is the reputation this group has had, undeservedly so, I now see.

@ crustie, that article you posted should be required reading for the "I don't want to change" Maemo developer crowd pervasive in this board. I'd subscribe to that site, but its above my education level atm. BTW, your landscape T9 solution already exists in the N97, but any good T9 typist will tell you its easier in portrait. And holding a $700 phone with one hand in landscape is not a good idea with small hands. Its much easier to make the entire UI rotate. Fulfill the expectation from jump street. I'd rather the UI be ASR and apps can choose what aspect they wish, but not the other way around.

I think the dashboard button should've been an actual button, but it needn't be. It should be in a lower left corner position in portrait. We don't have to experiment with it either. Nokia has done it for us since 2005 with the N90 until now. We have the research and case studies in previous devices.

@ ragnar, you brought up devices/OSes missing common features and having success. The device you allude to eventually saw the need to add it, all while being outsold by the N95, which had the feature at launch. Who are we imitating, 2nd place? Are we aspiring to be Apple, or are we aspiring to be better? I happen to remember a survey of people that didn't choose the iPhone, and the biggest reasons were
1. No multitasking
2. No Flash in the browser
3. No MMS
4. No BT OBEX Push

So it mattered to millions, and it helped the N95, N82, and 5800 rise to legendary status because of it. The fact of the matter is the best smartphones of the world have been mostly portrait devices, with landscape as an option. Negating that and forcing users to use another hand unecessarily is a bad idea, IMO.

We can't rest on our laurels just because we can. It doesn't take 3 years to implement MMS, and I doubt it would take more than a few months to a year to do ASR. Would ASR hurt the platform, take away from its intended usage, or make it undesireable to anyone? So why hate, guys?

Maemo is OURS, and suitable for most of what we want if we decide to implement it. If it takes a year, cool. But if Maemo 5 will never support ASR, let me know so I can ignore this space until Maemo 6. I'm done trying to convince this forum that some may need it. They don't, and that's all that matters to these devs.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Great post, zerojay. :)

Tim

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Thanks zerojay! You seem to be a take the lead type, and I like that. I thought this thread was all about trying to make that happen. Most of us outsiders come from the school of thought that if you mention any needed feature or app idea, it gets implemented, but as you can see that isn't the case.

So how DO you get things done here? Which developers should I talk to here? I'm a Symbian cat, and this is you guy's world, and we're just trying to be heard. Who are the leaders? I know now an open thread isn't enough, though I don't see why not. Isn't Nokia, Maemo devs, and the world watching? Should I just table it with my small group of Maemo devs in my own community instead? I'm confused on the entire purpose of this forum as a whole after today. Its seeming like mostly discord and time wasting.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

well I'm out. I see how things work here. We'll have plenty growing pains with new users, sadly.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Let me explain a few things here that might be able to help sort this out for you hopefully.

The forum is not a complete time-waster. I can understand your frustration (of which, I'm sure I'm a part of) but it's really not that bad.

As you can see, the forum is a good place to get a wide variety of opinions from the community. You get a mix of Nokians, 3rd party developers and end users. It's hard to use for organizational stuff though. Then there's also the issue that different people in the community are in different places. Some of us are present all over. Some are only on the mailing lists... some only on IRC, some only on their own forums, and so on. That's human nature, not much you can do about that.

One thing we do have which has been a lot more successful for organization is the Maemo Wiki. Projects such as Mer and the community council use it very successfully for their goals and I think that it can serve that same purpose for portrait mode users as well.

Let me give you (everyone interested in portrait mode, that is) a few good ideas for how to get yourselves organized using the Wiki.

- Set up a Wiki page and send out an open call to everyone that wants portrait mode to come and contribute.
- Find someone that's passionate about your goal to lead (regardless of technical ability)
- Clearly state the project's full goals on the Wiki page.
- Create a list of people willing to devote some time to the project, separate them by their competences.
- Take a look at the goals and see how they can be split up into several tasks, or smaller doable chunks.
- Assign different tasks to different people keeping in mind task dependencies (It's hard to start on task C when it requires task A to be done first)
- Organize a way to have everyone working on the project to meet at the same time perhaps once a month so that everyone involved can see how the project is evolving as a whole.
- Above all else, don't get discouraged.

I know that the Maemo way of doing things is very different than what users are used to in the Symbian world. Stay invovled, push for what you want and get others to get involved. Once the momentum starts picking up, it'll be impossible to stop.

Rotation support in previous Maemo versions were completely community-based and there's no reason why that can't work again.

Feel free to ask those who are spearheading their own desires for help, advice and anything else - myself and the rest of us old coots included.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Zerojay, you are real, and what more can you ask for? I invite you to come to the Symbian Freak forums in our Maemo section. We have a nice developer community of our own, albeit mostly Python and C++ guys. I think it'll be best to stick to my own group and leave this to you guys. I'm used to meeting challenges, not running from them.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Very good idea: Does Nokia provide a list, of component (package) of Maemo 5, containing:
- The name of the package.
- Package version.
- Package description (what it is)
- Package dependency.
- His license (FOSS or not FOSS).
- Responsible for the package.
- GIT or SVN Link to get the source code.
- A link to its section in bugs.maemo.org (for save time)
- Where to send contributions to the source code?

?

If Nokia doesn't do so, he should, because I doesn't see how the community could contribute effectively to Maemo 5 without it.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'm not sure if they have done so yet, especially since Maemo 5's final hasn't been released yet, but I don't think this would be too much to ask for from Nokia.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Thanks Zeryjay.

You know someone at Nokia who we could ask?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'll push it to Quim and Daniel and see what they say. They've always done something similar in the past so it shouldn't be an issue, really. I'm sure they already have something similar in mind.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Nobody is saying adding more functions to the OS would not require more time both coding those functions, testing them and making sure they play nice with the rest of the OS.

However, the only complaints I have seen is that it would have taken another 6-12 months to make ALL STOCK APPS support portrait mode. I read nothing claiming having a software keyboard in the API would have caused such a long delay. In fact, nobody else seems to be asking for such a minimal solution, this thread is mainly about adding portrait mode to applications not simply adding a keyboard to the API to make portrait mode easier and more consistent for developers to add themselves.

The thing is, you miss out a major feature like this and the reputation of the OS will suffer for it. When they FINALLY sort it out, older applications will not support it yet so there could be 100 different keyboards depending on which application you are using and how they addressed the problem. Just like my pet hate on Linux where one application will one file requester with my saved shortcuts on it, then suddenly another will use some other API/Toolkit without my shortcuts. This inconsistency slows the user down and while its something you might put up with on a desktop OS, its totally unacceptable for a mobile where every second counts because you may only have seconds to get the job done, especially as you are relying on limited battery life.

Incidentally, I am newbie developer who was learning C# to write on Windows Mobile, but got stuck with its legacy of having 1000 ways to do something, none of which I could get to work just right. I have also been using Linux exclusively on the desktop for over a year, about 10 years for server/router and occasional desktop use. So I can see the flaws from an end-user perspective but am also aware many of those flaws are the open nature of Linux, too many different toolkits that do the same task. That is great, but not something that is helpful on a mobile device.

Fact is, if you want it to be friendly to the end-user it has to be consistent. So even if you choose to use x y or z toolkit, the OS itself needs a backbone to enforce some rules. One of those rules should be to provide a soft keyboard and ensure it behaves the same in all applications, that is pretty much all I am trying to say. Of course a soft keyboard is only essential for portrait applications, it often would not be needed for landscape ones. But it would be good practice for it to work either way. You are trying to provide what a developer needs. Like daperl said, you do not want to make developers reinvent the wheel.

Sorry if I did not make that obvious previously. You can tell I am not a document writer as I tend to be a bit long-winded in my explanations.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You've made a point I've been trying to make for days.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

...all this complaining and yet no one seems interested enough to help do any of the work, even after I've outlined the basics. I guess it's not that important after all.

Disappointing.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Portrait mode, and native app usage in this mode will be one of my questions to Jussi later today. Glad I found this thread too.!

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I don't know if people already suggested, and sorry for not search, but am at work and in a hurry, but don't want to forget to do it...

It's about the Browser in landscape mode.
At first I thought it was a bad idea.. all the sites would require scrolling.

But what about switching to "mobile" version of the website when rotating in portrait more?
And back to "desktop" version when in landscape?

This would require a setting (if you want this to happen or not) and an actual reload of the website when you switch to landscape, but this is not required when you switch back to landscape.

Would it make sense?
Or is it too confusing?

Aniello

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

With the N900 already having an Accelerometer, one would assume auto-rotate feature could be added, providing the rendering is enabled too?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Hm, it IS a great idea, but as you yourself pointed out, might not be that intuitive for folks (not sure how many even realize that mobile versions exist). Could be a nice touch for 'power users', though.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

And many websites, I am sure, just are not designed to be switched from mobile/full version in the middle of a session.

One solution would be to have landscape only pages and portrait only ones, but I am not really fond of this.

The best, I think, would be this:

the browser sticks to the desktop/mobile version of the page when it STARTS.

You open a new browser page, rotate to portrait, enter a new URL. This browser instance will STICK to "mobile" versions of all the pages/sites it loads.

If you don't rotate and open a website, that instance of the browser will stick to the desktop version of all the URLs you throw at him.

If you rotate a "sticked" browser instance, you rotate the full or the mobile version of the site as well.

This should not confuse users.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

So, this is the kind of condescending browbeating we can expect if you're elected?

Beam me up, Scotty.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

This is not true, I am very interested.
Unfortunately, I don't have any time now, this is my final year of study. I will help whenever I have time.

But without the list I mentioned yesterday, we can not do much.

(But if on this list I see that Nokia put too much proprietary software, I could also go to other Mobile OS)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

It's not condescending browbeating at all. I'm just really disappointed that so many people jumped up and said "this is absolutely essential to me" but aren't interested enough to try to organize themselves to make it happen. Even with help. Or even to start planning to get it going. No one. Not a single person.*

And yes, me trying to start community movement towards getting them to scratch their itches and trying to help them get it off the ground is EXACTLY what you can expect from me in council.

Instead of trying to help and trying to be a part of the solution, you're just trying to take potshots at me. Wonderful. Thanks for being constructive.

* Thanks anyways, Korbe.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

No. The correct solution is to DO something about it, if the N900 does not meet your expectations,.

That coming from you is great.

I have yet to hear you ask "What can I DO to get ASR in Maemo? Constant bickering isn't going to do it.

Zerojay has put down some of the things which can be done.

This is open source software. It is about doing something if you have an itch.


Then please do behave as if Maemo is yours, too. And do, do, do. And stop bickering. Because it gets at least on my nerves.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think this entire thread clearly illuminates a major problem with Maemo development that has been rather stealthy: the cost of contribution is far to high for most. As a result, users resort to using their voices in the form of frustrated and often exaggerated posts to influence those that can make changes.

As a developer, I advocate for and empathize with those users. I think that we, developers, often take our skills and understanding of software engineering for granted.

I think in general maemo could be improved with a lower entry cost for development and experimentation, and clearer channels for contribution. This could mean: more code examples, clearer documentation, simplified development environments, simplified and restricted APIs, more tutorials, better development communication, better code forking system, etc. I predict that as the cost is lowered, the amount of contribution will rise exponentially.

Otherwise, we will continue to rant in forums, frustrated that things are not being done. I've learned that asking people to act differently rarely changes behaviour. One must change the system itself to alter the outcome.

I'm Capt'n Corrupt, and I'm running for council (jokes -- seriously if I were running, Nokia would be declaring bankruptcy weeks afterwards :D )...

}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think that makes sense. I don't even know who is or isn't a developer in this forum, which needs to be addressed soon, or things will get confusing. I'm new here, but most of the guys here aren't. I've voiced my wish to have the entire UI support ASR, but after 39 pages of posts, most of the people who claim to have developer skills seemed uninterested, and felt the request was marginal and not needed or meant for this device. (Is this the iPhone portal or something? LOL)

I didn't know the proper channel for submitting OS ideas, and not being a developer, I'd probably be a fish out of water. I expected to gain support for my idea from a developer or two who could influence others to get the idea rolling.

Zerojay, I'm glad you finally gave some idea of how to get something done, but without guys like you to give direction, it is a self serve situation here. "NOT very user friendly, very DEVELOPER friendly" is the accurate moniker for this site as of today. We need to improve the idea submission process, and I think a developer should be the one to submit ideas to the developers working on the OS in order to best speak the proper language they'll understand, and to discuss what a user can expect in terms of realistic expectations. There should be a feasibility panel for stuff like that to figure out which features are worth doing first or at all, and how big a demand for such features exists.

Can someone post a thread and make it a sticky for how to submit new OS features (not app) ideas to guide a new user on how things work around here? I could repost it on my Maemo site when it launches in a few days.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

a good idea would be to give the devs a developer title in the place where it says moderator for mods, atleast then people would know who they talking to get a general idea of what kind of perspective they coming from in threads like this.
At the minute people are like why should i believe that your just a normal end user like me who's speculating on how hard or easy it maybe.I've noticed in other forums when its visible who developers are normal users look up to them and give them more respect too.
It would be good if developers run polls or threads about ideas on new features for existing software or just a brainstorm they got about a new app to get ideas and feedback from normal users to try to add and enhance it.
both end users and developers can learn a lot from each other anything what makes communication between the two i'm all for as current situation feels like a us V's them situation. not quite sure who the us and them is though lol

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think you'd need more differentiation than that, for it to be meaningful.

I mean, is it a Nokia Corporate Developer? a Maemo.org community Developer? Some random linux hacking Developer?

Each of those have their own varying degrees and areas of credibility...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'm talking about maemo.org community developers if other kinds wanted to be added not including nokia devs then they can apply some how.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

its been rolling round my head for a while.
I just don't know yet how to make it happen.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I have a serious interest in developing apps for the n900. But have little experience. I have edited and compiled a few simple programs in C++ and Java, and have some knowledge of Linux. I have an n810 and love the idea of having an open source device/phone. I would be willing to work on a portrait mode application and I have some good ideas.
First- has anyone thought of simply creating a UI with icons or widgets that are rotated 90degrees rather than trying to rotate/re-arrange the whole desktop? I think this would solve some problems... like the n810s auto rotate changing the desktop background and widget position
Second- Can a theme for canola be created where the icons and selection boxes/text are rotated so it can be in portrait mode?
Third- I think the customizable desktop idea could be abandoned for portrait mode and just go for a simple easy to navigate UI that interfaces with the N900 built in UI but activates when rotated. Who needs to move widgets around in portrait mode really? I almost think the drag and drop widgets create more problems than benefits for the end user, we're talking moving something 2 inches to the other side? Seems trivial.
Fourth - there is nothing wrong with scrolling desktops up and down when in portrait mode.
Basically what Im saying is if widgets and boxes could be rotated and text resized rather than rotating and reshaping and re arranging the whole display it might be easier to develop an app that does portrait mode.
I have Backtrack 4 RC (KDE Deb) Linux and I have downloaded the SDK and found some good example code for Fremantle. I would appreciate some direction for getting started in developing. I have yet to install the SDK (haven't figured out how yet)

Let me know what you think. Thanks...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

KDE 4.2 plasma seems to support rotating applets on the desktop

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Glad to see some dialogue on getting a solution. I suggest studying the N97 since it supports widgets and a rotating UI, albeit the N97 widgets aren't free floating or irregularly placed.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Keyboard keyboard keyboard, this was on of the biggest deals with the g1 which they tried to resolve with the dream or mytouch or whichever. It is greatly unconfortable to have to slide the keyboard out even if all your trying to reply with is "OK" to a text or a IM message.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

This was luckily fixed for the G1 with Android 1.5. And on the N900, you can enable the onscreen finger keyboard, if you like.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You could try http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

What I propose:
- To begin, open a page on the wiki so that everyone can deposit these ideas. On this page will be also listed those who want to help. So do not hesitate to register: programmers, testers, UI specialists, etc ...
- When Nokia will release the list I mentioned on page 38, we begin to assign tasks to the community of programmers, create verticals UIs and testers will test. Once a software has a vertical functional interface, we sends improvements for they can be included in Maemo 5.

The best it's to begin with pre-installed softwares, then the menu of software, then the dashboard and for finish the Desktop.

This right for everyone?

PS: I'll try to help as possible, but I can't guarantee this: it's my last year of study and I will have to create many software in the year.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Nobody is interested?

And zerojay, no new from Quim or Daniel about the list I mentioned here?
If we get all informations make a section of Maemo.org where we could get all this information and the packets corresponding as Package.Ubuntu.com like a good idea, no?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Don't worry. We've always been given this info before and this time around won't be an exception, I'm sure.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

For the previous version of Maemo, the list was disponnible only for the SDK, no?
I haven't found it for the Maemo 4 installed on MIT.

PS: This list is also very important for me: If there are too many proprietary software in this list, I don't buy the N900, the software that I develop in this moment for Maemo is the first and the last and I don't get involved in the Maemo community.
And yet, it started badly ...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'll help out with UI (design side anyway) point me in the right direction, let's do this.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Has a bug been filed related to this enhancment, which we can vote for? Or do we need to go through Brainstorm? Sorry hard to keep up with all the change...:D