Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Only one use case I can see ( other than phone) for portrait, and that is to be able to look at my photos in landscape or portrait depending on how the photo was taken in the first place. A portrait photo on a wide screen device sucks.

Most people have a landscape use mode built into their brains from a early age cause they all use cameras in portrait mode, and its not a problem to hold. And hey they rotate their wrist to take portrait pics.

I think the argument about one handed use is crock. just watch i phone users in action, most go two handed in either orientation when it comes to selecting things, cause the thumb dont reach across the whole screen real estate one handed. Keyboard work needs two hands cause its faster even in portrait:D

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

To make sure the portrait mode support does improve (hopefully). :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Indeed same applies to Android.
The desktop doesn't rotate in an official ROM even though it is supported!

Custom ROM do enable it.

It is even worse knowing you can do it, but that some marketing guy decided you must not have it.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think it's worth noting that it was the landscape mode Apple, Google and others didn't implement immediately. They all came to the conclusion that portrait orientation was the obvious default expected by consumers.

I know, I know... "mobile computer". Right.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think it's worth noting that the iPhone doesn't have a landscape keyboard. If the iPhone DID have a landscape keyboard, landscape orientation would be the obvious default expected by consumers.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

That's not correct.
They do have landscape keyboard (now):

http://www.apple.com/iphone/iphone-3gs/keyboard.html

Aniello

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

So where is your idea on brainstorm? Get active, man, if you want things changed!

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'm talking about a hardware keyboard.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Not quite true.

The desktop will rotate if you open the physical keyboard*.

I don't know why that's the ONLY case in which the desktop rotates (in the mainline dist), but it does rotate.



(* and since, when speaking of pocketable devices, only devices that have physical keyboards are worth discussing, that means all Android devices have a desktop that rotates ;-) )

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Ok, this connects to the G1 with a hardware keyboard.
You open it up and it rotates to landscape...I didn't know that

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

That's the ONLY case because that was a design choice.
Nokia made a similar choice.

Nothing prevents them to bring a rotate desktop with a fully functional rotated virtual keyboard.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Hmm. Well, with jailbreak you can put autorotate off.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

What about a device which is default portrait mode with hardware keyboard in portrait mode. If it also has an accelerometer, is it expected all software on device supports landscape mode? Maybe the way the hardware looks and is designed should give some hints. Or maybe we are spoiled. Or expecting some kind of iPhone way of using.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Could we not take the"on-screen-keyboard" of Android for Maemo?
It's a FOSS. (no?)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Most of the interaction with the media player, web browser, etc. rarely require the hardware keyboard for navigation.

The G1 with it's hardware keyboard still emphasized portrait orientation as the default use case.

Clearly, there are situations where each orientation has advantages.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'm not arguing that there are not advantages to each orientation. What I am saying is that if there is a hardware keyboard, whichever orientation the hardware keyboard is used in is going to be the default orientation that consumers expect. Same thing applies to the N900.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Tons of phones with slide out which support several orientations...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Communicator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N95
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_E70
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_E90
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Dream (T-Mobile G1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_E75

Especially the last 2 contradict your assessment.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

We're arguing on a design choice.

The N900 was designed with landscape mode as default.
Portrait will come (at least that's what was hinted by Jussi).

What's the point now?

Aniello

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I have now used E90 for over 2 yrs, had 9300 before that for few years. They both have landscape AND portrait hardware keyboard, so they kinda don't contradict anything. They have a keyboard for each orientation. Actually all Nokia phones that you mentioned have two sets of HW keyboards. N900 have only one. That makes the supposed default orientation kinda obvious to me.

I read this whole thread last night at work, all ~44 pages of it at the time, and since I am not a developer nor heavy user of previous tablets of anykind, I felt little bit shy to participate. Still, having used the E90, pretty wonderful form factor, I have started to miss more usage in the portrait mode. But also, since it has the communicator/PDA inside with the best HW keyboard so far, I know I need the landscape too. I am torn between features and usability on this. I hope the portrait gets more official support tho.

But, I need to say this more, whoever says that portrait is not important, is equally wrong as are they who say portrait is more important than landscape. People should get choices, options, chance to choose. I am glad 3rd.party software have the option to choose to support portrait.

On the thread as a whole, I reckon people should use the device a little more before passing judgements on design/development failures on Nokia's part.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

The last 2 simply prove to me that the people that designed the phones were high as a kite when they were working on them and nothing more.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

True, but not all same HW keyboard. The HW keyboards are optimized for certain usage patterns since each provide different functionality.

Good point, although there is also something such as touchscreen with OSK, which is simply not an option on non-touchscreen devices such as Nokia N95/E70/E90/Communicator_Series.

Like someone mentioned: T-Mobile G1 could initially not use OSK in portrait mode, so you'd need to use the HW keyboard in landscape mode for a few simple words. Instead, the HW keyboard is rather meant to be used for 'heavy text input'. Anyway, G2 ditched HW keyboard.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

OSK with T9 would actually be just the thing I myself would be most happy with in portrait mode. I like to be able to make short answer/question kinda SMS with portrait mode, and anyway who in their right mind would write anything over 160 chars with OSK when there is HW keyboard available in landscape.

I hope that Nokia, with time permitting later, will bring the portrait mode up to speed the way people who are not accustomed to heavy tablet use are used to. I still want N900 sooner without it and have it later than have the device later with it so I am not whining about it. I whine about it if it never comes :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

This would need to be thought out pretty carefully though.

Imagine I am planning to take a photo, and trying out whether portrait or landscape crop works for this case. It would be confusing if for example the shutter button switched places depending on the camera orientation. Also, what if I wanted to shoot a photo with 45 degree horizon angle? ;-)

// t

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

There's HW button for the camera, what stops you from using it regardless of orientation? I must be missing something here...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

fwiw we are dragging the attention of tghe related product managers. The Brainstorm ideas are still empty and this thread is approaching 500 posts. I have no idea anymore whether there are good proposals for solutions in this looong thread that could be summarized and voted in the Brainstorm.

By now I can only tell to them "the community would like to have more support for portrait mode". Which is not bad, but after all this discussion...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Too true, and its bloody annoying.

Also note that the YouTube app also dictates how you use it which is really REALLY annoying.

You are forced into portrait for navigation and listing videos then forces you into landscape to play the video. Movies do the same in the video section, you choose it in portrait then BAM you are forced into landscape. Oddly, if you choose a music video they happily play in portrait or landscape, which is how all video playback should work in my opinion. Sure there is a 99% chance I will watch a movie or YouTube in landscape, but at least let me start watching it in portrait then thanks to ASR I can quickly switch to landscape or back at any time if it becomes more comfortable.

How the iPod/iPhone currently handles videos really does get on your nerves and is exactly what the N900 is going to do by allowing developers to CHOOSE rather than saying "all apps should work both ways". At the very least, if an app works best in portrait without using the keyboard at all, that is how it should be. Being forced into portrait is a lot less annoying than forcing into landscape, unless you need the keyboard of course.

The iPhone/iPod is a prime example of why not supporting both is annoying for the end user. The fact people put up with it is not a good excuse to do the same. That said, I still do not consider it a deal breaker (in fact, I ordered my N900) but it will still sometimes get on my nerves.

Thing is, its rather hard to brainstorm an idea when you do not have the current version of the device sat in front of you to SEE what is missing.

That is the difference between an end-user and the people who are in product development. We can't just imagine how it will work, we have to try it for ourselves.

I find it hard to believe you need brainstorm ideas anyway. As others have said, just look at your own devices. Surely the N97 has a nice media player interface in portrait? I know how the iPod/iPhone media player works is quite nice, although I am not a huge fan of coverflow - I find it easier to stick to portrait mode for browsing tracks/artists.

Surely, task manager could just rotate the thumbnails? Or rotate and shrink them down really small and have a text description at the side, one per line. Again, as I do not have a device with a 3.5" 16:9 ratio screen, I cannot comment on what would be legible.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Video camera mode should DEFINITELY be in portrait mode.

Phone call - portrait mode

Email and IM messengers should be portrait and landscape so users can have their choices. You can always use the on-screen keyboard in portrait mode.

Viewing pictures and videos should also be both portrait and landscape.

Web browsing should ONLY be landscape since it is too small in portrait and don't give you the best experience, plus mulitples browers open best in landscape anyway.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

If Email and IM should be in both orientations U]to give a choice[/U] why not browser too? I like portrait browser to check public transportation timetables which have PDA versions too etc. And portrait not giving best experience? Isn't that completely up to each individual? Tell that landscape-only to Mozilla Fennec devs while you are at it?

Again, limiting orientation mode based on what designer thinks is best experience is one thing, another thing is keeping in mind the development priorities. If at all possible, option should be the keyword.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I really do not see how portrait can work in video camera mode.

Surely the camera aspect ratio would be a problem there if you are implying that you can hold it portrait and shoot landscape video. That I expect would require rotating the camera data as it comes in, possibly needing to use the CPU to do it, which may either eat the battery or not even be possible.

Video playback, sure, but video capture is the one mode I would argue should be locked to landscape as video cameras always have a specific position you hold them in for operation.

It would be nice if the information on screen rotated when taking a portrait photograph though.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I would believe you if it weren't for the thousands of posts around here about the N900, what it has and what it's missing.

If you believe the community can influence our priorities, we are willing to pay more attention to proposals that gather more activity and votes.

Yes, we know our own devices and also what the competitors are shipping. But what kind of layout would you like us to follow? Or do you think you could do better than any model that exists?

One problem about threads beyond the 100th post is that only few people know what ar the jewels they contain. Most of them will be forgotten.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think the fact you need to register just to post to the brainstorm is the issue. Also, what must the developers hear they haven't heard already? As an end user, we're in here with developers, and we need to submit some brainstorm session to solve it? Aside from input and opinion, we won't have any input in the coding of such developments. I think a developer should've seen a need, posted a brainstorm talking about the issue, and let those experienced in software projects work on solutions. Then post in the thread letting others know a brainstorm has been opened, and allow them to participate if they wish.

But guess what? I didn't see many besides mrojas step forward. I know there is a brainstorm active, but how many developers are there working on it? Probably not many. It seems the developers are interested in things that benefit them, not their potential customers and users of their apps. I hope this improves.

I keep seeing people saying how they don't need ASR, or listing instances of devices that don't have it. The fact is, we want something better. Now this is a Nokia device, and most people in the world use them, and expect them to act likewise. ALL Nokia touchscreen devices support ASR throughout the OS, menus and all. Others don't, but maybe this is why Nokia is considered superior by most users, and other device brands don't sell as well. Ever think about that?

Use the N97 as a case study. It is a Nokia with a widget screen, a Flash enabled browser, and most of the features of the N900 on a lighter scale. It only lacks Linux compatibility as a differentiation. So if the N97 can support ASR throughout the UI, and be a portrait only device without ever using the keyboard, and support T9 in portrait or landscape despite the presence of a sliding landscape keyboard, then the N900 needs to catch up in this aspect, or it will feel like a downgrade, and less people will want an N900 instead, and volumes will be lower, and prices higher, and development of apps slower and lesser.

It is in the best interest of Maemo as a platform, especially with Moblin2 coming to phones, to aspire to be better. That's all I have to say about this from here on out. Good luck with the brainstorm, but I can only comment so many times. I've made as much of a point as I can. Developers need to take a lead on this, and shouldn't expect much more from end users, in my opinion. And asking for a feature shouldn't be the spark for a debate. Let the developers do the debating and designing.

Just how I feel.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Well, for starters the reason I was struggling yesterday with the maemo.org registration is to post about ASR in the Brainstorm.I should be able to do it for today.

I think the process for getting things to work is more complex than it should be. And to have people deriding the need other have for the feature doesn't help either. However, part of the reasons for us to try to improve all that now, is to avoid other people having to do it later.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I've posted an idea to brainstorm, and a solution, but I can't find it in the brainstorm list. I only see it in the dashboard under MY IDEAS and MY SOLUTIONS. See what I mean?

Brainstorm just isn't very simple. In fact, this thread was the dang brainstorm! Giving me a headache! How do we expect to work together if we have to jump through hoops?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I just noticed my JUST POSTED TWICE idea is at the VERY BOTTOM of the brainstorm page. WTF?? and no responses other than my own. So eveyone saying do something, I have. What have YOU done? Where are the developers?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Hey Chris, be patient my friend. Considering the differences between time schedules in the world, the developers are probably sleeping right now. What is the link to your proposal?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Just to clarify, you're here with end users and community developers. Free, third-party application developers.

The programmers who write the Maemo operating system aren't here, the UI/UX designers (mostly) aren't here, their product managers aren't here, and qgil (who is here, obviously) can't tell them all to spend an afternoon reading a long, meandering thread full of conflicting requests.

Brainstorm is what allows the community to pull together ideas into something well defined enough that it can be given to the product managers, programmers, and designers.

(Aside: I hate the way Brainstorm looks and functions too. I thought I was the only one though, and I haven't had a solid suggestion for improvement. Maybe together we can suffer Brainstorm long enough to Brainstorm improvements to Brainstorm.)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Well I think Nokia needs to read this:

THEY NEED TO BE HERE. Period. I see your point, but if the Maemo OS is improved via community input, they need someone that does read these forums and spends time reading a long, VIBRANT thread full of INTERESTING and RELEVANT requests. If I'm the UI/UX boss, this long thread is something I'd be upset if I DIDN'T know about it. And I'd want someone in the trenches, telling me what they're saying.

As for Brainstorm, it needs CPR. The newest ideas are at the bottom. There's no organization. You have a separate login. I'm identified by my real name instead of my forum screen name (Who the hell knows me by my name?? I'm christexaport, even in the streets, to many people. Why am I now Marcus McFann in the Brainstorm? I really don't mind, but some people don't like their real name published. And as a community, I'd like to know I'm working next to my friend mrojas, not whatever your name I've never heard of until now.... Its a disconnect.

I know its a work in progress, so I'll hold my breath and hope for some improvement soon.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Even if our team would have people dedicated to read the entire maemo.org every morning, the community members can't afford this effort. As a result, they (you) are usually even more clueless about the many hot stuff under discussion in several threads. This weakens the possibilities of contribution of the community at large, beyond the handful of hardcore readers/posters able to go through a dozen of threads of hundreds of posts simultaneously.

And yes, Brainstorm usability is bad but we all need to use it to find out what is worse and how to fix it.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

so right. I just used it for the first time. Its not all that bad, but it takes a little more effort than necessary. But drawing eyes there isn't easy. Just as long as it gets better one day...

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

OK, so here is my contribution to the Brainstorm:

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor..._in_fremantle/

I have the impression is redundant considering Chris already launched a Brainstorm, and also that the medium is... weird. I wrote it thinking a bit more on process and planning.