Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

A I agree, let's see!!

An intention and a target-group for this unit is one thing, selling the unit (making people NOT buying other units instead) is a completely different thing..

Iphone most likely instead, I have 6-700 bucks here willing to spend now, was willing to wait for the N900, but I am part of the 'mass', and no portrait mode, no N900 for me!

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Non-issue for you, maybe..

For me, a decisive issue..

If both modes were supported, both you and me would be happy, and more units would be sold and more money to maemo and Nokia..

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

messus, you could replace all the apps that you'll use and need to be in portrait mode with 3rd party apps that'll have that functionality.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

@messus: shush, you've just pressed the 'joint of disconnection' where Nokia and Maemo's FOSS community's interest aren't 100% aligned.

A good portion of the community here doesn't care about how many N900s units Nokia can sell because hey have no direct gain from it.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

It's a known issue and a tradeoff. We're not trying to dismiss that there wouldn't be use for it.

If we would have decided to do every potentially useful feature known to man before launching the device, N900 only still only be a twinkle in the eye of the various people working with it. And you would have (rightfully) had even more reason to complain what is taking you guys so long.

It is not free. It would have taken a lot of time. We're on step 4. I hope that statement reads friendly and clear. :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Try again, sir.

I think you should try the phone out in landscape mode before flipping out because most apps don't run in portrait mode. You might find that it works a lot better than expected and you won't ever miss portrait mode ever again.

Like me.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I don't imbibe, so I can't fully test this use case, but I can hold my N810 in my left hand and type. I've done so on occasion, though typing with one thumb is slower than typing with two, so it's not my first choice.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=60

bottom portion.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

That line wasn't meant for you in particular.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I'd appreciate it if you don't quote me directly before you write a line that isn't for me then ;)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Actually I do that, too, sometimes (right hand, though). The thumb is on the keyboard, and I'm holding the device with 4 fingers (my palm is below and not to the sides in that case). Not the most convenient, but doable with beer in other hand (do I have to attach a picture ? :D )

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think Messus and Ysss have a point there - its not a either or case and Ysss does believe that I am sure.

But to be objective, missing a portrait keyboard WOULD be a sore point to the bigger market as a whole - and to reviewers who will judge and evaluate a phone in comparison to the multitude of other devices. That does mean it is a dealbreaker - NO.

And to Ragner's (and Nokia's) point - yes they had to sacrifice the feature for the sake of faster bring-to-market times.

So as long as everybody realises both viewpoints are and can coexist but there will be talk of missing feature (just as in this thread), that's acceptable. I don't think YSSS is cribbing about his viewpoint solely - but the bigger view.
So lets rest this issue.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You guys obviously don't drink as much beer as I do ;)

Of course It's a missing feature and of course I'd rather prefer the hw kb any time and of course it doesn't really matter that much not having portrait mode kb and stuff.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I think Marat will release ATi for fremantle so you'll have these babies in your n900 replacing portrait calculator ;)
http://s58.radikal.ru/i162/0902/05/2f9bc472e0ee.jpg

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Qgil :

That's the challenge. While I ( after designing more than half dozen on screen keyboards) now that this is hard, I only proposed after looking at a feel details:

a) The screen is almost exactly as large as the iphone (ipod touch)

And the best:

Nokia Industrial design finally removed the "bevel" around the border of the screen. this also makes the life easier because enables smaller border for the keys that are on the left or right edges.

The real deal here is not about the space: but about plugging the prediction and doing some error correction smart dictionary (flexible) based on word movement pattern.

I truly believe (because of the Ind. Design) that the N900 can have a virtual keyboard in portrait as good as the iphone, and REALLY way better than Android's (HTC MAGIC ) G2.

---

And Qim : You are not only using one thumb, you have the freedom also to double thumb on that, as well using a point finger.

The thing (like you asked before) :"Do you really prefer typing on T9 portrait than in the keyboard fully available "

It's situation based, and in our Usability studies, it does make sense for a lot of people that simply don't want to keep turning the device ALL the time they make something.

- That's truly why I totally understand why the whole device is in landscape, it sends a message : It was made for that orientation.

- And for sure, it would be PAINFUL (I know that the Nokia design UI team for Maemo would suffer like hell to please everyone)

But that's why I posted :

We are not the users :) What makes sense for you and me.. doesn't make sense to the masses :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You can just press the power button when keyboard is locked and you will see unlocking screen with clock time. It is not portrait though. This is how I check the time from my N900, I don't use my Symbian phone anymore.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

As pointed out: development takes time, and hardware has its limits. There is no one size fits all.

Therefore, part of your choice is to pick a different device than N900 to suit your needs.

Then you'd better get device with candybar design. Do you really need touchscreen? From this post I'd say a device like Nokia E71 is good for your specific use case as outlined here. You can use it easily with one hand.

Now, does that make Nokia E71 a killer product and Nokia N900 crap? Ofcourse not. Every device has its pros and cons.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

OK, thanks for the info.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

So one thing to infer from all this

There is going to be NO Keyboard less version of the N900 anytime soon

Unless the portrait mode softKB is ready, a HWKB less N900 will be ridiculed in the market - as then you cannot justify asking users to turn the phone around to type on the soft landscape keyboard when in portrait mode. At least with the HWKBD you can justify that.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

@nilchak:

http://www.gsmjar.com/images/Nokia/7700/2057-L.JPG ?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You don't get it.. I would very much appreciate landscape mode for many/most uses; movie, im, mail, etc...

But being forced to landscape mode for everything is not acceptable for me, and many many more.. I DEMAND that if I pay 6-700 EUR for a pda device it will support both portrait and landscape mode.

And don't patronize me by leading me towards the E71. I know what I want; a state of the art mobile pda device both hardware wize and software wize. - Thats why I am in this thread isn't it? - Do you think I would be making my points in here If I was looking for a symbinan device like the E71/E97 ?? -

I am just saying that if this device is pushed to the market to early without being finished, it will not be a success!!

I honestly think this device looks exceptionally nice, and that it has potential to be maybe THE device many people are looking for now to avoid the iphone epidemic.

BUT, as I have stated; taking into consideration that this device has only a fraction of applications available compared to other units (symbian/wmobile/iphone), and that you are forced to landscape mode only, you CAN NOT justify the asking price for this unit.

I belive people are looking for the ONE ultimate unit which they can use for both surfing/web/leisure, and phone/sms/mms/im etc..
People can't afford, and more importantly don't want to have one unit for surfing and one unit for phoning..

Bring me portrait mode in addition to landscape mode on the N900 and I will not only buy it, I will warmly recommend it on every forum to everyone I know. If not, I will leave you guys alone and go ahead and send my money to apple.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

its not a deal braker for me altho i would like messaging in both orientations, but the past few years have seen alot of people come from crapy s40 devices and got themselvs a top end s60 device, n900 is one top spec device, people will want, it will bring s60 users to maemo, s40 users etc etc and not everyone will accept the landscape only orientation, yes thats up to the user but it will put people off the device, not everyone buys for top specs like cpu, ram etc, its just that alot of people will want it coz its new and looks nice.

on a side note i can see the n900 being a huge success due to all the hot talk about it all over the s60 forums, i reckon it will sell like the n95 did back in its glory days, theres not been so much heat about a device since the n95, so good luck to the maemo team, uv created a beast :D

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Well, I also demand to be given a pony for that price, but I don't think I'll get that, even if I preorder.

Hollow threat. At least here.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

..and I demand it sets coffee for me. But I'm the only one who wants that feature, so Nokia isn't going to invest in that.

Point is, they decided to not implement that portrait feature (at least not fully) to not delay the release of Nokia N900 and Fremantle. If certain features are in high demand I am sure Nokia will consider to add them! Either way that doesn't mean you'll have your candy tomorow though.

So, outline all the use cases for portrait mode which according to you are important. That is what this thread is about; qgil asked for feedback. This is your chance!

It was an example. The point was that sacrifices have to be made in hardware design, and that there is no "one size fits all". If you believe an Apple device is right for you, you buy that instead.

(FWIW, I don't see myself using an Apple device in one hand typing though.)

The point made before by several posters is that whether all applications are compatible with portrait mode or not is for most customers not a dealbreaker. iPhone 3G did not support landscape mode well either (was optimized for portrait mode), nor MMS. Were those dealbreakers? Difficult to say, but the device sold well.

There is however not one device by one manufacturer which is the perfect choice. Else we'd see that device having 100% market penetration.

It doesn't seem portrait mode is coming in the way you desire. Maybe you can weed the specific applications you want for portrait mode, and ask the developers to port it over. Maybe they want something back from you then, such as beta testing or money. IOW you will need to invest an amount of work to persue your goal, and crying about it here is not the way you'll get your things done.

So in short: it doesn't seem portrait mode is the primary usage of this device, and it doesn't seem it will be added soon. If it will be added you still have a hardware keyboard optimized for landscape mode. Do you really think you can be satisfied in the short term? I don't think so. You want a device primary developed for portrait mode, you want it now, and the N900 is simply not your piece of cake.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

please ask nokia if they support rotated xv.
and if they don't right now, could you ask them to make sure it can do ;)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

This landscape-only stance is rather disappointing.

I fully agree regarding portrait mode. Often it's just far more comfortable or practical to hold the device in portrait mode. As stated numerous times, this is especially true if you only have one hand free.

I can see TONS of scenarios where it would be extremely useful to use the device with a single hand in a pinch.

1) Walking, holding my girlfriends hand while finding directions.
2) Holding a shopping basket at the market while looking up the next ingredient to purchase.
3) Recording myself banging my girlfriend after a great outing and satisfying meal.

Ok, cap, game face.....

Regardless of any of this: considering the potential for many future maemo devices (with varying screen dimensions, no doubt), the team would be well advised to consider that eventually this mode may need to be less a luxury and more a requirement and start planning accordingly.

In any event, I think the Maemo team should pay close attention to the market response given this landscape-only stance; especially considering it's a software problem.

YARR!
}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Of course! Paying attention to market response is one of the things Nokia does in order to improve its products. The company actually invests a lot on this, far beyond ragnar and me following this thread. ;)

Actually defaulting to landscape mode covering it in all applications is also a result of paying attention to market feedback. We believe that the target audience of Maemo devices will welcome this design paradigm and will prefer it over the default portrait mode.

We are ready to hear the feedback from real N900 users based on their real usage of Maemo devices. Having a first hint based on specs, screenshots and your experiences with other devices is also useful but... You agree that the real analysis comes after using the real thing, first impressions and after a couple of weeks.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

If she lose your hand she'll feel happy after you grab hers again once you got the directions right. Or if its of such vital importance she'll have the directions on her own phone next time.

Indeed, but Qgil asked for more use cases. To be frank I'm wondering about them as well.

I mean, what kind of situations?

Which applications and/or purposes? If its reading a lot of applications with which you can read (and/or write) fall into the class.

As of now its actually a lot like Nokia Communicator. Portrait mode for phone. Rest landscape.

Come on man, don't use guns... :(

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

@qgil,

I'm glad that nokia is listening. We're all rooting for your team, our community, and this wonderful device! So long as maemo keeps tending in a positive direction, it'll gradually get better and better and better still!

I don't know if you've heard this enough given all of the complaining in this (and similar forums), but great-job, man!


@allnameswereout,

LOL.. She's gotta have it!!

But no more beating this horse (even if there's life in'r yet). I'm sure there are many compelling reasons to use or not use the N900 in portrait or landscape mode. Time will reveal what we really want, what works for us and what doesn't.

YARR!
}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

This thread shouldn't even exist.

There shouldn't be a question about supporting portrait mode in addition to landscape mode.

Community members created a portrait mode for the N8X0 tablets with a hacked kernel. As far as applications goes, that's on the individual developers. Including a rough portrait mode in the kernel officially (it could be hidden, but for the sake of stability) is a "duh" move.

The "well there isn't a portrait-mode keyboard", wrong. The stylus keyboard works great in portrait mode. Yes the finger keyboard doesn't. But I think we can take care of that, ok?

It's not even about reading the text, rotated 90 degrees. IM windows, web browsers, etc. allow for more content (less scrolling) on screen in portrait mode. Yes applications can do forced pseudo portrait mode, such as the calculator VTI.

As with an accelerometer on board this is no excuse.

Take the initiative team Nokia.

It doesn't need to be pretty, it just needs to work.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

http://maemo.org/community/maemo-dev..._on_fremantle/

http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_Fremantl...tation_Changes

Conboy for instance is already using this and supporting both landscape and portrait mode, and it works nicely. Even the rotation looks quite good.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Even if true, this doesn't help the one hand scenario that seems to be common to all the use cases mentioned here.

That's the thing. Except bookmark/link based browsing and media player, most of the use cases mentioned here require a one hand input method that 'needs to work'. We are only saying that it is not trivial at all.

Applications supporting portrait mode welcome. Prototypes of portrait input methods welcome.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Hey qgil, my man...

I figured I'd do a little less arguing and pitch an idea instead.

How about this:

Since the app can 'choose' weather it wants to support portrait, there is little worry here as the community will drum something apps up based upon demand.

For the desktop...

If widgets are limited to fitting into 2 adjacent 400px x 400px boxes (roughly half the usable area of the desktop), then rotation and re-alignment should be a simple matter: rotate the two boxes and stack one on top of the other (perhaps scale a touch -- thank jeebus for clutter). The flick gesture could remain be up/down (== side to side in landscape).

For the selection menus...

This can be applied to buttons/text/onscreen elements as well, but it implies that all items fit comfortably within two 400x400 boxes in landscape, which can more or less be automatically rotated and stacked in portrait.

I believe the N97 does something similar with it's home screen, though there's no reason why the widgets/buttons/textboxes on the N900 would have to be a uniform size.

Whaddaya think?


YARR!
}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Interresting comment Capt'n Corrupt, what do you think qgil ?

I found this on the symbian-freak website :

http://www.symbian-freak.com/images/...ec_n900_00.jpg

intersting to, isn't it ?

:)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Hey, I just had a silly thought...

Can't the developers make their own desktop widgets portrait aware? Or possibly fork the nokia code to do this?

YARR!
}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Except the widgets, shortcuts, contacts and bookmarks can all be different sizes and are freely placeable.

Ah, or is your idea that you'd have some kind of margin (like a book), which a desktop icon couldn't bridge?

That might work. Apparently hildon-desktop is going to be open source, so even if Nokia didn't include the patch it could be made available through Extras.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Yes, that is exactly what the N97 for instance does, I believe. Two columns in landscape, one in portrait. Each applet occupies a fixed box in there.

Then again, I also think that it's ... erm, not a very good experience to restrict users and applets like that.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

ideas ideas... :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

It is interesting..

I suspect it would be in Mozilla's best interest to include a portrait mode for their maturing Firefox Mobile browser. I recall reading that it was a priority to get portrait working for WinMo devices. I suspect that a portrait maemo version should not be far off.

I hope it performs well, as it would make a nice alternative to the built-in N900 browser. Considering how close the projects [likely] are, it would probably mean they could share code quite easily.

YARR!
}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

"While we agree that 20 peanuts is a great snack, we feel that 10 peanuts is too few. Therefore, we're going to give you ZERO peanuts."

So, rather than restricting users/applets "like that", you're restricting them to an even larger extent?

Given the choice between "quirky but workable rotation" and "no rotation", I think you'll find that "quirky but workable" will win. Certainly it's not as good as a better solution, that should be delivered as soon as it can be made to work cleanly and reliably ... but in the mean time, _some_ capability is better than _none_.

10 peanuts may be too few, but it's more/better than zero peanuts.