Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@sachin: do you know it's harder to buy unsubsidized iphones than subsidized ones? not to mention, unsubsidized ones are still locked to AT&T. (read: mentioning this fact serves more to confuse the reader than to enlighten them. without writing juuuust a bit more about carrier subsidies. Chalk this up to Apple's 'smart' (or devious) marketing.

@qole: I don't think gerbick was talking about technical capability of the N900. I'm sure he knows all about it, and then some.

What good is all those technical prowess if nobody buys it? The product has to be packaged appealingly, accepted by the consumer and also everyone in the supply chain to ensure smoooth delivery of the product to the widest audience (this includes the carriers).

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Already have had that via GV Mobile for almost all of 2009.

This, I do find exciting. However, I want video calling.

Since I own a N810, and an iPhone... VoIP has been in my grasp for almost two years.

This... I also find exciting. DVD quality though?

Guilty as charged ;)

I'll settle for being pleasantly surprised that it does change the game in a huge way. I'm hopeful. But I'll remain cool and calm until otherwise.

And secretly pulling for the N900.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

My issue isn't even with the technical prowess any more - there's no doubting that this is one capable phone.

By "game changer" I have to state I just see a very well thought out phone that honestly is on a very limited (initially) bandwidth and a slim chance it'll be priced slightly above the set price of it's current mindshare competition, the Apple iPhone 3GS which is subsidized something fierce.

By game changer... I'd love to see some things change in the US carrier offerings. But it ain't gonna happen. Not yet... not in my opinion.

In fact, there seems to be a slight backlash from the carriers that can't put their marketing into your phone... and that really has me more bothered than anything else.

But who knows... I'm sitting back and watching you guys hash it out... I'm just remaining hopeful that this comes out as big as people are hoping it will be.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

And see how quickly you'll go over your monthly data limit (just with the background chit-chat to keep you logged on to the voip servers and exchange presence information).
Then, depending on your carrier/contract, youl'll either have your speed heavily reduced (so none of the above will work) or you'll pay 10 times more for your data call than for a normal voice call.
And that assuming that the carriers won't severely cripple voip traffic.


RIght, but you don't need an n900 for that, you could already do it with an n8x0.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

While it can be done with a n810, the n900 seems to be better designed for that kind of use...

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Personally I would not want my device to be polluted with the rubbish customisations that come with a network supplied device so, in any case, I will (if I buy that is) opting for a contract free device.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 321961) My issue isn't even with the technical prowess any more - there's no doubting that this is one capable phone.

Two different Games...

The Game US carriers have been playing with subscribers;
and...
the Game US carriers want device manufacturers to play.

The first game manufacturers have little say in but they do affect the outcome... As was said earlier, in some cases when manufactures competed with each other over a carriers business, the manufacturer often came up with ways that a carrier could squeeze extra pennies out of a subscriber. Notice the term “carriers business” and not subscribers business. This is the outcome of this subsidized device game.
The subscriber is not the customer, the carrier is.

If in the in first game we established that the true US customer of a manufacturer’s device is the carrier then the second game is “The customer is always right”…

Device manufactures designed, developed, and ultimately built devices with the features that US carriers wanted, not what the subscriber wanted. The second game is the game I believe Apple changed.
However, up until now it may have only changed for Apple. If this is the case, it changed the first game somewhat by giving the subscriber a choice. A subscriber now could choose features that a carrier like AT&T wants them to have or the features that a manufacturer like Apple wants them to have. :rolleyes:

Now hang in there with me. This is where I tie together my seemingly convoluted logic and bring it on home. (I know what I mean but I don’t always write it down very well. :o)

The game I believe Nokia may have altered with the N900 is the second one. When a harmattan device drops Apple may no longer be the only manufacturers offering subscribers a choice over what features they can have on their own dang device. With Nokia also at the table subscribers will have more features to choose from. With Maemo on Nokia’s device, those features will no longer be limited by either the carrier or the manufacturer.

Ultimately the US subscriber will become the customer that manufacturers will compete for and the first game will no longer be played the way it is now.

Kudos Nokia… well played!

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I'd expect it not to make a spin, e.g. compare apples and oranges and present that in a misleading conclusion. If he had moaned about ti being not subsidized (enough), it would have been understandable.

This way, just as sachin007 put it, I could equally say that here the iPhone 3GS is sold at price of 70 (yes, SEVENTY) Nokia XM5800-es. Not exactly a fair comparison, is it ?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@attila77: I didn't make a point to defend what the writer did. What i was trying to do is to understand why he did what he did and what constraints he has to deal with. This way you analyze the situation clearer, not just put blames on everyone else but your 'side'.

Tell me something, name one popular phone in the US that's made their mark in the US market without getting carrier subsidy.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

As I said before, it wasn't about subsidies and I have no idea what phones are popular in the US. He made a comparison (and implied a conclusion) nobody forced him to do. If he thought what you say, then that's what he should have written (Nokia is wrong not to offer this phone on a carrier that provides at least 400$ subsidy), and not imply the conclusion that it's two or three times more expensive than the 3GS. Even if the average Joe fails to think through the whole subsidy thing (which I honestly don't know), there is no need for a journalist to make that (false) conclusion for them.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@attila77: what exactly is the false conclusion? Those are the prices available to the public. I don't expect him to explain why nokia failed to get the subsidized pricing at this point in time, and he's already touched on the issue by giving an approximate lowered price IF T-mobile picks it up.

Right, no phone has gotten thru US's 'thick' market without carrier subsidies. So I'm not expecting the N900 to garner popularity at $650 a pop. That's essentially what the writer was driving at and I agree with him.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Well, it looks like AT&T might be eyeing the N900 after all:
http://maemotalk.com/2009/09/05/att-...he-nokia-n900/

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Speaking of game-changing, an article in I think the NY Times recently said the iPhone was a game-changer in that customers who bought one are using a heck of a lot of bandwidth and mucking up AT&T even further than it was already mucked.

I imagine that the N900 would do even more in that direction; if so, I can see how some carriers might be reluctant to carry it besides its resistance to being crippled.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

That seems to be a very unconvincing article -- it's just someone saying that AT&T "might be" eyeing it, with no evidence.

Hey, I've got news like that! Did you know that Bill Gates might be thinking of buying an N900? True, he might be!

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

There isn't any, of course. There never will be unless US carriers start doing business the way carriers do elsewhere, which will happen about when pigs not only fly, but are jet-propelled. Very few people here would be willing to shell out the 'real' price of their phone up front, even a cheap one. Few people even know what their phone really costs - it was free or $49.95 or whatever, that's all they know or care. But were not the only ones. Europeans get 'free' or 'cheap' (actually financing for) phones on contracts too.

Millions and millions of US users are happy with Sprint, Veri$on and AT&T and their 'deals'. They know nothing about CDMA vs GSM, never heard of a SIM card, and think smartphone = iPhone, period. Paying $650 for a Nokia(?) smartphone and having to switch to T-Mobile to use the 3G sounds totally insane to them.

The N900 will be a small niche market in the US, really do next to nothing to expand Nokia's presence here. Nokia's got a real tough road in the US smartphone market. Even if T-Mobile does eventually offer it, without a Google boost like the G1 had and having to paddle hard against the iPhone tide it will remain nothing more than an enthusiast's item in the US. To succed here Nokia must make deals with T-Mobile and at least 1 more of the major carriers.

I expect I'll always be one of a handful of N900 owners in North America. But that has nothing to do with how well it sells in the rest of the world. Elsewhere, where consumers are better informed and the world isn't run by iPhones, I expect it will do pretty well.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I think it's brilliant. The iPhone isn't branded hardly at all, and the Android devices are *barely* branded by the carriers, if at all. Why should Maemo be any different? Given how heavily branded Symbian devices are, I think it's great that Nokia is testing the waters of a platform that doesn't even support branding - it's a good opportunity for Nokia to build case studies for unbranded smartphones being successful for both Nokia and the carrier. Those case studies, if proven, could be used to make pitching Symbian devices easier.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Yes, the bad boy image of the N900 makes me want one (but I still can't afford it).

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

So, if I open 'ACMEcorp' in the US, buy N900s from NokiaUSA for 650$, buy a shipload of contracts from T-mobile, and then sell the N900 for 100$ + (adequately marked up) plan, then it would mean the iPhone's pricing is fatal as it's twice the price of ACMEcorp's N900 offer ?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@attila77: Well, no, because you'll go bankrupt in a few days financing linux geeks like us. But don't let that certain financial doom stop you from going forth with that brilliant plan please ;) I'm first in line to be ACMEcorp's customer.

If price is the only detraction to wide market appeal of the N900, then yes I can see your point. At any rate, if this bothers you so much, why don't you email the writer.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I do think that the N900 has what it takes to become a cult device, especially with the potential of open source development. You never know how "domesticated" step 5 of 5 will be, so this may well be as good as it gets for a long time to come!

The N900 has quite obviously been a work of passion for almost everyone involved in it, and I am proud to have been a small part of this team.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Wasn't the first iPhone unsubsidized for $500? I thought it wasn't until the 3G on AT&T that the iPhone became subsidized.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Yes. Not only that, Apple persuaded Cingular to give them a share of the monthly fee.

Of course, it wasn't a 3G phone so it was cheaper to make.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Thanks for confirming. Then this would be me telling ysss' about one popular unsubsidized phone making its mark in the U.S. market.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@daperl: lol, i forgot about that. But you know what... at those prices ($499/$599?), the first gen iPhones were still locked to AT&T and they had to enroll in iphone-specific plans which were more expensive than other plans if I remember correctly.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

IT all boils down to this Ads , Ads , and must i say ADDDSS. Nobody but Microsoft have yet to challenge Apple when it comes to marketing. When people look at the ads they are glorified by what they see (especially here in America). I've had one person come in my store and say the Iphone is better because "we (I'm assuming by 'we' he mean fanboy) have the best copy and paste did you see the commercial" i nearly fell on the floor. Imagine this , Nokia Commercial coming up showing hypothetically quake 3 arena then after showing it all black screen saying "games", next showing the multiple desktop then black screen again "personalized", then the browser, and so forth after all the features are shown then show the n900 displaying its title "a mobile computer in the palm of your hand". I mean Nokia should do this nobody knows these phones exist without T.V . I know people who don't even know what the N95 is and it been out for what 3 years now.:D

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352501,00.asp
.
I think that the writer of the aforementioned PC Mag review, Sascha Segan, is quite knowledgeable and he comprehends the U.S. cellphone situation very well.....as do you, sir.
Despite the rebellious efforts of Nokia, I don't think that the situation will change anytime soon. Consider the sheep mindset of the consumer coupled with the collusion and immense lobbying power of the carriers.
Most handset manufacturers are forced to willingly jump into the foray. Nokia seems to sporadically engage.
How's the E71x doing?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Let's not forget that important facet of the iPhone saga.
And the early acceptance wasn't extremely spectacular either.
But yet, look at it now. Yes, the iPhone phonominum is due to Jobs Power, Apple Appeal, etc.etc, but let's not discredit the fact that the device is very easy to operate and it is....."cool." For the things that it does do, it simply works very well. (Inadequacies are ignored and/or put up with....and face it, we NIT users are accustomed to doing that also.)
At least now, the N900 has greatly improved those Internet Tablet UI issues. Many of us, in the niche market cocoon, will love it.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

lets just say it, if you dress to impress your either packing a iphone or a blackberry, depending on the message being bling or solid money...

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I cant see the problem with carriers not subsidizing the N900.
I always buy unlocked phones and use them with my Vodafone SIM which is on contract. Because I don't take a new phone when I renew my contract the give me a discount on my monthly package cost instead, so I don't really loose out. Just because you will end up buying the N900 direct from Nokia or via an Electronic hardware/Computer supplier rather than the network carriers shop means little too me.
I think this just reflects where Nokia are pitching this device. They say its more like a computer with telephony rather that a phone with computing. I don't expect a subsidy when I buy a computer.
Now this may not appeal to the general public and limit its sales as a whole but I vote for freedom to do what I like with a device and negotiate my network contact separately.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@lagonda: unfortunately that strategy comes with the freedom to fail with your platform too, due to limited market..

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I am surprised that not a single person so far has gone beyond the standard subsidized-handset-for-consumers approach here. With its capabilities and the price tag, N900 is a business device, very much like HTC Touch Pro 2. So, by marketing and selling it to large businesses, with volume discounts, you may have to avoid the pesky iphone-dominated consumer market, while increasing your market share where it counts: premium do-it-all devices for business customers, from inventory terminals, to shipment trackers with built-in navigation, to blackberry replacements.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Maybe Nokia is cautios to do that with an OS still very much in beta. After the release - probably, when the major issues are addressed and the platform is stable.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Unfortunately, taking on the entrenched crack-berry mindset is an even steeper hill to climb than taking on the consumer-based iphone market. While I agree with you in principal, it's convincing cfo's and it managers (most of whom think business phone = blackberry, period) to get on board that's the problem.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Well, in this case it is easier, as N900 clearly has different set of features than crackberry: it has got a much bigger and nicer screen and a bigger keyboard to go with it. Once you implement push email from corporate Exchange servers to N900, you have got a valid offer to make to the suits. Besides, there is way more to N900 business use cases than simply a crackberry replacement.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I suspect some senior execs at Nokia aren't happy with the push to Maemo for higher-end devices than Symbian (mmm, politics); or that they're just not as good at negotiating with carriers.

AFAIK, no operator subsidizing or offering the iPhone, the G1 or the Pre have any customisations - and these are devices very similar to the N900; both in terms of technology and target market.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Yeah, but if you buy three iPhones at the subsidized price, do you have to sign up for a six-year contract?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

from what i understand, one thing that makes blackberry blackberry is remote wipe and control of available actions.

from what i can tell, the control of the n900 will in the hands of the owner/user, as much as nokia could make it.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

The G1 is pretty 'customized' to TMo. The included gtalk and ym client uses sms messaging protocol instead of a proper ip client. Skype is also hacked down to Skype Lite on the Android. You can't make ip calls with it.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

This can all be easily added, if needed. In general, if a client is willing to buy a large enough batch of merchandise, the seller will customize it for the client.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

As I said previously I agree with you in principal. However your assertions are naive and you are giving WAY too much credit to the average bean counter and manager by assuming that they would abandon the familiar blackberry ecosystem for a new platform (untested in their eyes) no matter the superiority on paper. Thats just not the reality of how the mainstream business world works. I've contracted at numerous fortune 500's and gov't agencies...and the inertial resistance to change is incredible.