Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

a sure thing is always "better" for the stock price.

ones there was a saying, "onone have been fired for choosing ibm".

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I think the Nokia execs have decided to take the same stance as you have, gerbick.

I wonder if this is why?

Or maybe this?

Or maybe it isn't a conscious policy at all...

...Wish I knew. A real head-scratcher.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Simple psychology. Taunt potential customers with the features, dismay them with the list price... and when the official partner is formally announced along with the after-subsidy cost, watch the real salivation begin...

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

The device hasnt been released yet so carriers cant offer it for sale, so its a bit disingenuous to suggest that it wont be carrier supported.

Secondly he was implying that in order to be accessible to consumers, it would have to be subsidised to an unusual level, which is not the case. Other phones that are more expensive than the N900 have successfully launch to market.

Also his language is out of step with normal journalistic practice, indicating bias or lack of understanding, most readers wont get past this strong statement-

It needed correcting for the good of the device and the consumer.
.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@texrat: if the product has no competition or it is very far and ahead in front of its competitors (ok, arguably so for a certain crowd, but it hasn't yet reached that mass market appeal afaik atm), then i agree that's a good thing. Otherwise some people can quickly write it off their device selection shortlist due to price issues.

@dansus: yeah, I can see if the writer is a fanboy or a nokia marketing guy, he'd take the time to explain why his favorite device isn't priced competitively, probably making a sidebar article about the deficiencies of US Cellular Market and its subsidy practices. Otherwise, I don't see any factual errors in his writing.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@ysss, its what he said not what he didnt say.

"Nokia is selling it at a fatal price of $649"

Making this statement before the device has even been released was irresponsible journalism. If he had contacted Tmobile and they had confirmed they wouldnt be stocking it, then it would be a fair statement.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

The remote wipe should be there already - Mail for Exchange I believe is just ActiveSync for Exchange, which we do at work for our iPhoney junkies. I've already had to wipe iPhones remotely in this manner and it works fine (assuming signal/the device is active on the network).

Even the iPhoney 3.0 configuration utility doesn't give you the expanse of options available as the BES does for Blackberries. Sorry, but if the U.S. gov allows BBs but not other smartphones/PDAs, that says something for it being a qualified and secure business device.

Although I would instantly hook my N900 into my Exchange mailbox, it won't be quite at the same level of security as the BB overall. At best we could "hope" for a config utility that can be applied to an N900 to control and enforce certain policies, but I don't see that as being high on Nokia's list for this generation.

As for what makes Blackberry Blackberry- it does what it does very well.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@dansus: and if t-mobile doesn't carry it. should he also call up every potential online retailers to find the best possible price? There's a reason for MSRP.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Whats that got to do with it, retailers are not carriers and theres only one possible 3G carrier in the US.

Come on, play fair.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

@dansus: he's already mentioned the tmo possibility with some good (imo) approximate prices right after that oft quoted line. Anyway if it matters to you that much then you should contact the writer.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Are you being sarcastic?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Problem here is that as stated, phones are generally not sold off-contract in America and Nokia dont have strong carrier relationship, so its natural for some writers to assume that it wont be carrier supported.

But this is a new class of device and even having a passing interest in the mobile market, seeing that it has Tmobile 3G frequencies should peak your interest. Tmobile doesnt have a strong presence in the US and their 3G network is immature, if Nokia wanted to get this device into as many hands as possible, in an unsubsidised form, you be would foolish not to allow it to work on the market leaders network. Nokia are normally quite open about forthcoming support for frequencies, with the N900, they are being very cagey about supporting 850, 900 and 1900. You will notice that all the other new Nokias support 900 and 1900 and i fully expect it to be picked up by Tmobile before xmas as part of their plans to gain market share with Nokia on board, amongst others, namely Android.

The N900 wont sell like hotcakes and it wont be an enterprise device yet, its an N-Series dont forget. Im not certain Tmobile will pick it up but if Nokia wants a foot-hold in this market as it seems it does they are going to do it at the right time. Nokia have branched out with the E71x, which is crippled and is doing reasonably well for a non touch devices but goes against Nokias ethos of selling uncrippled phones but did so to gain mind share and put the name out there with carrier support. Doing it with the E71 wasnt such a loss to Nokia as say the N97, i feel they were hoping the N97 would be more of a hit in the US and get picked up but missed the mark with several points which has led to bad press in the US. But this was the first step and only a hiccup in the grand scheme, you cant knock em out the park all the time.

Its true they need to promote their phones more but at the right time, theres no point in buying tv ads now, S60 5th and Meamo isnt ready for the American consumer yet as proved by the N97 and carriers are reluctant to support a device which doesnt appeal.

Timing is everything and as their plan to move to Symbain ^2 and Qt comes along, so will developers and technology. Exposing Maemo to this market now is correct but its just a sandbox for Nokia and developers, a chance to get it into the minds of consumers and developers. Huge sales at this point wont matter.

What matters is Framework, Technology, Software and Timing. When Maemo and Symbian come together under Qt, app development will increase rapidly and a large number of the apps developed for the N900 will be ported. The OS's will be mature enough to promote heavily and consumers will create demand through this exposure, creating demand from the carriers.

The devices your seeing now are stepping stones, i wouldnt expect Nokia to gain share in the US until this time next year when new devices are announced with carrier support due to the ground work done by community's like this, app developers and Nokia's reworking of the Maemo to allow custom roms.

We already know that Maemo is a 5 step program and that 2 more devices are in development including an E-Series. Also Imagine what S60 devices will be announced next year, with all these Qt apps and a shiny new UI on the table. As the closed environments show their limitation, the Nokias of the world will gain mind share as consumers reluctance to be locked down matures. Hopefully its going to be a good time for Nokia and for whichever carrier is on board in the US.



(disclaimer: I could be talking out of my arse here but thats how i read the situation) :D

ps sorry for the long post. :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

The more I wanted to refute this... I simply cannot. You hit it on the head in a way that I wasn't really thinking about.

However, there's only one problem I have. Nokia hasn't been playing any of these carrier games for a while. In fact, the offerings from Nokia that are indeed subsidized that are worth a darn are far and few between in the US.

In fact, it's been stated before. It just seems like Nokia gave up on the US market.

Will the N900 be a game changer... for Nokia perhaps? They'll sit back down at the table with the carriers and work with them, not away from them?

But... your words. You got me thinking.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I did. Thanks.

Erm.. No. Theres only one possible US 3G network the N900 will work on in its current form.

Am i wrong? :confused:

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

for data, right. for voice, no.

But I totally misread your comment. Thought you meant there was only one 3G network in the US.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

For a fair cost comparison:
32GB iPhone 3G from Apple in Oz costs A$1040, which is about US$775 +tax.
That's about 10% more that the street retail price of the N97, so I expect the N900 to be similarly priced, if it sells here, and cheaper online.
The 32GB iPhone is "free" on a 24month plan with $2736 min. spend. So that's a huge subsidy, but if you got an N900 and used VoIP, you'd only need a $15/month 1GB data plan. Not much room for a subsidy in that :-)

I see the N900 does 850MHz EDGE. How acceptable would that be in North America as an alternative to 3G?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

My personal opinion... I'd rather not use EDGE unless I truly had to because I was not in a full 3G area.

Edge was the reason I upgraded my phone in the first place.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Or it says something about the stupidity of the U.S. gov (relying on secret programs, data formats and protocols is not the best course of action for any government).

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Maybe Nokia wants to convince T-Mobile that the N900 is going to be for them what the iPhone was/is for AT&T?

Most of us assume that the N900 is ready for mass use, however Nokia may not think the same, so they would prefer a careful and limited launch, to "test their wings" and create a user core.

That user core would be a nice base for a Harmattan release. This, plus the experience from the N900 release plus the more developed network T-Mobile should have by then would be the ideal scenario for a Harmattan device mass deployment, perhaps at price zero with subsidy, like the N97 in Europe.

Remember Nokia thinks long term and their win strategy is based in sheer device numbers.

One more thing: even if there is no big US release, the N900 has already fulfilled something very important: it shut up the doomsayers and Nokia haters.

Now no one can deny that Nokia is in the cutting edge. That buys them some time to properly develop and release the next version of Symbian, and Harmattan too.

One last edit: That is probably why the N900 got so little time in Nokia World: the N900 speaks for itself, while they have to convince their partners that Symbian, despite being under so much fire recently, is still valuable and important.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Well, we do know that there are two more Maemo devices planned for 2010: one Fremantle device in Q1 and a Harmattan device in Q3/Q4. So far, things look pretty similar to Nokia's previous platform introductions:

1. Introduce a rather specialized first device to test the market (see Nokia 7650). See how things go.
2. Introduce cheaper mass-market device with pretty much the same capabilities (see Nokia 3650). See how things go.
3. Start making devices of all shapes and colors, based on the same platform and what people say of the first two devices.

You can see similar pattern with S60e5 (5800, then more devices), N95 (followed by N81, N82, etc), and so on. Thus, based on this prediction, we should see a stripped down mass-market N900 in Q1-2010, then the Harmattan device, and if everything goes well, explosion of different Maemo devices in 2011.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

After reading other comments from around the web I think the real problem was that Nokia have been caught out with the enthusiastic welcome the N900 has been getting. They were expecting the N97 Mini and the 2 new music phones to be the devices of the show because they were announced at the show whereas the N900 was announced the week before.
I think they thought that the N900 would be a slightly more popular version of the N800/N810 but still a niche device. So they did not put much effort into keeping the network providers happy. Now its getting rave reviews they may be regretting that.
However I hope they keep the open nature of the N900 and keep any network provider interference of the device to a minimum. I think the open nature gives it a good distinction from Symbian and keeps both platforms viable.

There is always a chance that the network providers will take up the device if it proves popular and they get enough requests for it. If one takes it on and it does well the others will have to follow or risk losing custom. Yes I know they are big ifs!

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I hate to say it, but I just don't see the N900 being offered by a US carrier. Look at it this way: The N900 is designed as an always-connected computer, a pocket desktop with broadband if you will, with all the usual desktop web-based functions, that oh, by the way, happens to make phone calls. That's how it's described by Nokia people themselves. A 'net connection is vital to it's basic concept and functionality, obviously. I'm wasting time repeating what many have already said...but bear with me a bit.

Anyway, point is, there are 4 carriers in the US Nokia could make deals with, again obviously. But the are serious problems hooking up with any of them.

1. T-Mobile. The obvious choice since as the N900 is presently configured, T-Mobile is the only US carrier that can offer the GSM 3G connection so vital to full functionality on the N900. They showed with the G1 they are willing to risk introducing a new Linux-based OS. But T-Mobile has their hands full with Google-branded Android phones right now and they likely don't want to jeopardize a Good Thing with Google by offering direct competition. 3G service is good where available and growing, but still limited.

2. AT&T. The only other GSM provider so the easiest to adapt the N900 to, but understandably unwilling to do anything that might upset Steve Jobs, who has his hands wrapped tightly around AT&T's throat. Note their recent cancellation of Android phones. In many areas the 3G network is so overloaded it might as well be Edge - if it works at all.

3. Veri$on. CDMA service, difficult to make a deal with as they're almost as bad a control freaks as Apple is. No doubt also not wanting to tick off Jobs & Co. so they can help themselves to a large piece of Apple pie.

4. Sprint. CDMA service, incompetent management, poor infrastructure, very, very shaky financially. So inept they turned over running their network to Ericsson. Would make a human sacrifice for an exclusive iPhone deal.

Add to the above:

1. Training CS staff to support a root-enabled real Linux device. Android/Google made CS easier for T-Mobile by sandboxing all apps, denying root access, etc. No such protection for them with Maemo (thank god).

2. Most US customers are unfamiliar with Nokia. Is there an app for that?

3. The N900 will require a heavy-duty subsidy to price it competitively with BB, iPhone, Android phones, etc.

4. Few US users know anything about unlocked phones or would be willing to pay unlocked prices. They never heard of CDMA, GSM, SIM cards. Are there apps for those?

5. In the US, smartphone = iPhone. Business phone = Blackberry. The end.

But the story isn't yet written. Nokia's not stupid, they're fully aware of everything I listed and more, appear to have a plan and the resources to back them up. So the situation's certainly not hopeless, just serious. There's no room for more N97-type errors in the US. The hardware and OS will have to be excellent from now on to generate 'Net buzz and positive reviews, backed up with plenty of ads to generate public awareness.

Sorry for the long post, I know stating again things most readers here already know. I just wanted to put together an overview of some the potholes in the road to success in the US that Nokia and the N900 faces. A very, VERY rough road. Nokia will need to kick in the 4WD and bring spare tires.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

I agree with Crashdamage's astute assessment of the US market.

One possibility is that T-Mobile will introduce the N900 without much subsidy. They've done that with the HTC Touch Pro 2, which has a suggested retail of $550 but sells for $350 with a two-year commitment at T-Mob. That means a $450 N900. Only the fans will buy it at that price.

As for T-Mob's 3G network, they are rolling it out at a furious pace, but neither it nor its retailers are ready for prime time. My town got 3G early last month, but the rollout is incomplete. Half of the suburbs still don't have 3G and there's no firm ETA. I have to assume that's typical of T-Mob, so 3G will be hit-and-miss for at least the rest of the year, if not another 6 months.

Here's an interesting sidelight on the MyTouch. When 3G hit, I stopped by a T-Mob company store and asked about the MyTouch 3G. The salesman was very reluctant to sell it, and wanted to push me into a Blackberry. He was obviously a very experienced T-Mob salesman, knew the phones and plans well. My guess is that people bought the MyTouch expecting an iPhone experience and were dissapointed. The T-Mobile forums have 24,000 posts (10X any other topic) on MyTouch:

http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/

T-Mob clearly needs devices for their shiny new 3G network. If MyTouch is a disappointment, maybe T-Mob will roll out the N900 with a decent subsidy. But they could just as well wait for the next Android device or get the Blackberry Bold, both of which have far more brand recognition than Nokia in the US.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Well X6 probally is the phone that gets less atenttion, but in the end is the phone that sells for masses.
Eldar said in his blog that N900 and booklet was released earlier because they would have stealed the whole show.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Or, Faux-style applied: "Some people say..."

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

T-Mobile would be crazy to pin that much on Google phones and not have some sort of alternative. I doubt adding the N900 to the portfolio jeapordizes anything with Google, either. It's typical business.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Does anyone have any 3G network capacity numbers? I mean, it's reported that iPhone users have saturated up to 75% of AT&T cell data capacity... even when the device was already optimized to be 'friendly' to AT&T's current capacity. They've put in place cellular limitations such as:

- can only install <10MB apps from the AppStore
- Defaults to 'normal' YouTube quality, not HQ
- VOIPs are only useable with WIFI connection
- No continuous background downloads other than the ones from AppStore or iTunes Store

(Of course the above limitations are easily lifted after it's jailbroken). But.. with such insane usage numbers, wouldn't N900 success spell capacity doom for the carrier?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

This is my first post here.
I am from Greece and a lot of people here have the same question.Will it be available in Greece,full Greek with the hardware keyboard including Greek letters;
I do not know if i can get an answer from here,and i am realy sorry if this is not the place for this question.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

problem is that with such a price (i am looking at at least 50% increase vs a N810 locally, and i am not sure i want it as my primary phone device, as having multiple points of failure appeals to me) it may well get anyone but the very hardened enthusiast to think twice about committing.

now if nokia had announced Qt for world compile at the same time, so that third party software could compile on all existing nokia platforms in one go, and maybe even windows mobile, it may be a easier sell.

but as it stands, its to much of a dark horse on the phone market, even given its tablet pedigree...

where is that non-phone device, nokia?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

the way i see it, t-mobile is using the android phones as an alternative to the hiptop (or whatever they are called), given how similar they are in overall software design...

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

if you consider the networks have no problem with laptops running 3g data modems why would it be a problem to run it all in one small box?

afterall, we were told right at the start this device is a computer first and a phone second.

I got myself a usb broadband adapter yesterday which included a pay and go data sim.
I have inserted it into my device and o2 seem perfectly happy to give me service.

hth, ymmv etc

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

those often require more expensive tethering plans (at least in crazy places like usa), vs the more limited data plans for phones...

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

pay and go was £15 for 3gb. good enough to start and test the waters with.
i hope to find a better plan, but i have no job, so cannot get a contract.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Is your laptop always on in your pocket?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

By device do you mean the n900?

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

550 euros maybe. Expansys is selling the HTC for $699 and thats a good deal, in the UK its £524.99 now and was £600+ on release. The N900 is £499.99 and $649 pre-release and will go down quickly.

Remember the retail price isnt a true guide to the wholesale price, seems like the N900 if picked up should be $299 and the usual £0- 100 in the UK.

http://www.expansys-usa.com/d.aspx?i=179174
http://www.expansys-usa.com/d.aspx?i=187417

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Back from the cottage:

What is correct in the MobileNews article is that operators may choose not to sell the N900 with subsidies. We decided for now to ship the first Maemo device with cellular features as is i.e. without operator customization. One of the many benefits is that we can manage only one main branch of the software and any feedback from consumers can quickly be addressed across the whole global installed base. Not having operator services installed onboard means less service revenues and, therefore, the N900 might be less interesting to subsidize.
What maybe was misunderstood somewhere along the line are the general customization capabilities in the UI. The UI is one of the most flexible out there with a degree of freedom in the desktop superior to most smartphones. The fact that we make this "customization/personalization" only available to consumers has many reasons one of them mentioned above.

At the end of day, like somebody already said in this thread, it's the consumers that decide what they buy from whom. N900 will be available through unsubsized retail and operators with different data bundles in selected countries. Where exactly and from which operators? Well, we just need to wait and see.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Its not the right place but I'll answer anyway.

Only thing I found was http://www.nokia.gr/products/phones/nokia-n900 now ask yourself. Why would that all be translated to Greek if the device isn't coming to Greece? I'd say the answer is: N900 is coming to Greece. If and how the keyboard is localized I don't know. The Flash video on that website is generic, in English.

There doesn't seem to be Greek online shop for Nokia products. If I were you I'd go to a Nokia store to ask, phone Nokia, or e-mail Nokia. However chances are they don't know themselves either because else the information would be online on their website.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

AFAIK such subscriptions are always more expensive than a phone-based subscription whereas they're often more liberal (VoIP allowed, tethering allowed).

That is a reason why a subscription with N900 might be more expensive. Operators count it at 'computer' instead of 'phone'.

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

right now i would say the N900 looks like a expensive dev platform, not a customer device.

sad really, as the most creative developers is found among the customers going "hmm, it would be nice if this thing in my pocket could do X"...