Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

Where is this UPDATE you speak of?

How will an operator restrict access to their network... by individual IMEI?

BTW, if this is a figment of your imagination or you have no support for your allegation, please say so in your reply.

If on the other hand you do have support for your position, please provide a link. :)

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

@Crashdamage

Maybe they should use the N900 to get the attention of the customer base.

Apple was already popular because of its Ipods... one could argue that it was easier for them to dictate the way the Iphone was launched, as opposed to letting the providers make the rules.

Nokia could build interest with this "4th Step" and then gradually move towards the "unaltered" option with their subsequent maemo devices.

I guarantee you the N900 will sell much much less in the US if it is unsubsidized than it would otherwise, altered or not.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

Problem is with subsidized prices. When operators/carriers sell "cheap" phones, they want some return to investment. Which means blocking VoIP, Skype and IM services. Currently they make bucks with calls and SMSes. This the reason why they don´t like the loop holes in THEIR phones (as they present it). This is the reason why carriers don´t want to subsidize N900.
Another is that people don´t want to spend $500 to mobile, even it means that they have to bind themselves to fixed terms for long periods, if they want "cheaper" phones.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

excuse me but are the subsidied phones a form of charity from operators? who will pay the tab finally?

tip: look at the mirror.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

I think that's their plan, yeah. Use it to create a loud buzz.

For sure, Apple already had clout. Same goes for Nokia outside the US. They're trying to use that popularity to do something with the N900 similar to Apple did with the iPhone - take it as is or leave it. It might work...

If they let the carriers modify Maemo now, they'll never be able to put that back in the bottle. Set the rules and stick by them.

Absolutely. And if successful, the N900 or it's children will be offered subsidized, no doubt. But the iPhone started out unsudsidized at $500-600, built demand, got subsidized later - and gadget history was made, despite flawed hardware/software, a single lousy carrier and high price. Appears to me Nokia wants to try and follow that model.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

Heh, over 17 million iPhones sold worldwide since release, not bad for flawed...

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...7_million.html

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

I understand what you are saying but sometimes the operator subsidized phones end up costing more than the unlocked phones on the longer run. For example the iphone data plan is 15$ more expensive than the regular unlocked data plan on at&t. So that increases the price by 15* 24 = 360$ on top of the 200$ you are already paying for the phone. So that makes the total price 560$ and of course remember that you have to stay in contract for 2 years which in these days of technology is a lot. In most cases you will get a better model of the same phone or another brand phone which you will want to buy. And then there is the issue of lack of official firmware updates. And most important of all reasons is that it prevents competition among the cellular providers. If Americans keep allowing their carriers(and apple) to do what they want to do they will never get a free market. Not that it cannot be done.... the markets in Asia are very good and you get very cheap prices for prepaid services. So there are many advantages to get an unlocked phone. I think buying the phone on a credit card and paying off a little every month is better than getting a locked phone.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I've been following this thread rather closely - btw, Transformers rule - but as far as it stands... can I just simply ask for somebody to break this down to me a bit better than it has been so far to me?

Reason I'm asking... mind you... I've had prior phones that were subsidized that were not crippled or even branded over than a startup screen from all I could tell.

So why is this a problem with the Maemo branded phone? Am I missing a shift in how phones are marketed now?

Feel free to treat me like some 3 year old dummy (which isn't too far from the truth). I just don't... quite get the concern from the standpoint from the carrier.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

In general, operators either want to either SIM lock the device after subsiziding, but equally well you can just have a fixed 24 month contract for your SIM card and not worry about locking the device: the consumer pays the same whether or not he uses the SIM (and/or the device). That works well if it's a relatively fixed flat monthy fee. For deals where the price depends on the usage, SIM locking is preferrable to operators, since you don't want the customer to use the device with a cheaper deal.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Then again, in general: an expensive device = users are able to do a lot with it it = a lot of data transfer as well as other services potentially used = a lot of potential extra revenue = more need to lock down and make sure that the customer doesn't go for cheaper options.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

The issue now is really whether the mobile DATA providers in the US can be reduced to dumb pipe status just like your regular cable or dsl internet service provider.

With phones and mobile data rates now capable of doing such things as various chat protocols and various voip protocols, there exists a scenario wherein a consumer may be able to supersede the value added services of a mobile provider(voice calling and sms) using their own services on the providers network.

Of course mobile providers make a killing off of billing calling minutes(incoming and outgoing in the US) and sms so they are fighting this dumb-pipe-ization fervently. Most often this takes the form of both blocking such apps either at the software level on the individual handsets(ie no google voice app on iphone, no voip on nokia e71x, etc) or blocking those protocol packets on the network(basically blocking all ports but 80 or disabling RTP UDP packets which voip audio uses)

I think, though, through the apparent partnership nokia is developing with Deutsche Telekom and therefore T-mobile USA presumably by extension, and as evidenced by various t-mobile moves of late regarding pre-paid data service plans in the US, that Nokia(and maybe google too) are looking to t-mobile to lead the way against the three providers that lead t-mobile in subscribers(ATT, Sprint, Verizon).

Back when I was using my n810 very extensively tethered to my Treo 700p on Sprint network, it seemed clear to me that this was the direction nokia wanted to push in. My n810 had reduced my sprint connection to essentially a dumb pipe even then. With mobile providers in the US reduced in this fashion, I think consumers will definitely benefit with lower costs, greater device selection and competition, cooler mobile services. Oh, device manufacturers a la Nokia will also benefit greatly :)

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Here's a post at Nokia Conversations that clears things up:
http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/...for-operators/

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I'll post the same thing I just posted there :D

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I'm amazed that Americans even use the word "subsidised" to describe what's going on here.

Instead, people should say something like: "Well, you could either get the full Nokia device, or you could get a crippled version from the carrier bundled with a 24-month contract."

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

wtf just happened?! All i did was pick up the N810 after typing in a few paragraphs! This has to be one of the most annoying things about tear browser, " oooooops! Did you think that you are allowed to put the tablet down and pick it back up to finish what you were saying? WRONG! One click on the edge of the screen accidentally is all it takes to erase everything you just spent 20 minutes typing! And send you off somewhere else who knows where, too bad!

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Really, when Nokia talks "services", I start wondering how that will be pulled off on the networks of others-- who have already shown resistance at carrying Nokia's offerings due to direct competition with little or no reward.

Maybe Nokia needs to launch their own [non-sucking] version of Iridium... :D

Wait-- maybe THAT's the easter egg! :eek:

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Damn...I was hopeful that the days of Carrier customization might be over...but I see the stories of it's demise were premature.

I would accept Carrier customization with 3 rules:

1. Carrier custom programs should not replace any original built in programs. ie: Rogers music player instead of Nokia music player. You can add things, but don't remove the things that come with the phone already. Compete with a similar or better program, don't force me.
2. Carrier custom themes, images, sounds, etc...should be deleteable. If I don't use them, or I don't want them, I should be able to remove them from taking up memory on my phone.
3. Crippling of any kind shouldn't be allowed. If a phone has a feature when announced, I don't want to get it to find out Voip or something else has been removed.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

See from the individualistic point of view (as you rightly pointed out) getting the N900 subsidized with a 2 year contract makes better sense then unsibsidized and no contract but paying the same price nevertheless month-to-month. I totally understand that.

But as long as we keep doing that, the ISP's will keep screwing us over.

And from Nokia's point of view - as long as they go the subsidized route, they will alse be screwer over and dictated to by the ISP's.

So the only way to stop this NONSENSE is to stop with the subsidized crap altogether.

That way the ISP's lose all leverage over anyone - the customer as well as the manufacturer.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I think everyone would accept carrier customization on that basis, except for the carriers.

Nokia isn't the only manufacturer who hates this. From the Motorola website:

What they're saying in their fine print is: blame the #@£*$ carriers, not us.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I see your points, I guess you gotta start somewhere right?

Don't get me wrong I hate the current US system as much as all of you, I guess I just don't have enough faith in the American Sheeple to actually understand the underlying truth.

Most people just think that the way it currently works here is the way it just is, they have no clue that there could be 'another' way.

I was just suggesting in my utopian example that it might be a way to introduce the masses to the concept of open source.

Without the actual support of at least one carrier pushing along side for a 'new' model of open source here in the US, it will be very difficult! I hope it happens! I really really do.

The only other way Nokia could do it in my mind is with an incredible and expensive marketing campaign.
Otherwise at it might take a long long time.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I've said this numerous times so please forgive the repeat:

Nokia TRIED to change the US model. Competitors saw an opportunity to grab market share as Nokia worked toward a more open, retail-based service. The effort worked against Nokia and in favor of LG, Samsung, Moto, et al.

Cracking the crazy US market would take more than Nokia-- it would take the combined effort of every single manufacturer getting on the same page and standing tough (or the FCC and FTC doing their jobs). I don't see that happening.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Oh, and I'm starting to think Nokia should have spun off a separate but wholly-owned subsidiary for Maemo devices...

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Hmmmm... Nokia reversed themselves?

It seems the reports that "erroneously suggested that Nokia will not support operator customizations for Maemo devices are simply incorrect.”

http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-maemo...tions-1156200/

Sorry: Repeat of what Reggie said....

Re: Nokia: networks may reject N900
 

Expansys an unlocked iphone is £1000 almost thats TWICE the £500 for N900 also unlocked... iphone is crippled, N900 is open

And my T mobile G1 contract is up for renew in the New Year, I pre ordered my N900. When T mobile call I take the discount and not upgrade my phone...

/end

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Ok, what?

Maemo 5 is the 4th generation of Maemo software? :confused:

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Yup. Elephanta was scrapped.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

That doesn't make it make any more sense. ;) 4 != 5. I'm assuming they're not counting Maemo 1/2 separately.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

Theres nowt wrong with subsidised phones, it allows access to low income consumers. If they offer a phone for a range of upfront prices and charge a fair monthly amount, to make a fair profit, then its fine.

The problems start when carriers try to lock you down for multi year contracts, remove and block features, charge over inflated prices and offer little in return.

Carriers know change is coming, so they are screw*ng you for every penny while the goings good.

Re: Nokia to stop operator reducing phone features for Maemo phones
 

Carriers don't really subsidize phones for low income persons... they do it because it is a guarantee on profit on a rate plan (with a built in profit) which justifies the discount. Though in the US since you get no discount for not having a subsidy.... maybe it is for the poor. Lol

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

I understand that 4 != 5. But it's also my understanding that scrapping Elephanta is what led to the numbering disconnect. I forget the details. But I could be incorrect; sorry if so.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

OS2005
OS2006 Bora = Maemo 3
OS2007 Chinook = Maemo 4
OS2008 Diablo = Maemo 4.1
Elephanta = ???
(OS2009) Fremantle = Maemo 5
(OS2010) Harmattan = Maemo 6

I don't think Elephanta caused the disconnect, they are purely going off device iterations, and both the 770 and N8x0s got two (OS2005/6, Chinook/Diablo).

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Well given recent articles it seems Nokia is open to carriers brand the device. Of course for our community it wouldn't last long anyway. As long as they don't make any.. physical modifications.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

YES! if the device is somehow impaired permanently I will definitely opt for an unlocked one instead of the subsidized one...

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

This is all true. And it bears repeating. People should know Nokia's history.
I think it makes it all the more admirable (and amazing )that Nokia continues to address the U.S. market with their ideologies intact.
What other handheld device manufacturer has the means & ways to tell the U.S. carriers, Fxxx Yxx!!?

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Ideologies? Rather doubt it....

Nokia has invested heavily in its production system, which relies largely on being able to use the same parts between different models as much as possible. They do not want to have 100 different chassis variants for the plethora of operators out there yelling for their own.

The companies most successful in the US market don't have this problem, for them it's completely ok to produce one exclusive model for one operator, as it guarantees them sales they wouldn't otherwise get. Competing like this would likely cost Nokia more money than it would gain.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

Well, lets hope they really are. And if they really are following an ideology, that they continue to do so.

Obviously, Apple. Any US carrier CEO would commit hari kari for an iPhone exclusive now.

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

It looks like Nokia are ready to allow carriers to customize the N900. Better buy one quick!

Re: Nokia: Maemo phones won't be tailored for carriers, operators may reject
 

@ralphb: as long as they don't employ drm measures to avoid OS modifications, it should be reversible..