Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I'm sick of all the push to Maemo5. Bugs marked WON'T FIX. And encouragement to abandon the N8X0. :mad:

Yes - it's new, shiny and the future. The N900 and beyond. :rolleyes:

What about people who own the existing devices?
Not everyone likes the N900. And those that get the N900, are they planning to put their old NITs on ebay? I think there is still life left in them.

I'm sure Nokia 770 owners know how I feel, when the N800 was released. New hardware, different capabilities, incompatible software. Frustrations.

They do have the hacker editions at least, though.

What I propose is two-fold.

1.) Diablo fully-patched kernel +.
Gather all the kernel patches (this has been done in past by either fanoush or qwerty12 or both but I haven't heard of any updates) as well as other major community advances - kernel modules and etc. I don't mean the usual packages found in Extras. I mean things like alternate networking, rotation and anything not considered "end user" approved.

The reason for this is well it's just easier to get "back up and running" after a flash, help new "power users" and gather up all the stuff because it's spread out along this forum, the wiki, the old wiki, personal websites and the IRC chat logs.

Package it all up. Kernel patches build it ready to flash (along with the diff source code) and packages (or whatever) for the rest of it and a meta/virtual package to make it all manageable.

2.) OS2009HE. For the N8X0s (and one for the 770).
No I don't mean Mer - first they are going in a direction that I am not fond of and secondly it's not a true Fremantle/Harmatten backport. It is its own thing, the Mer devs have made that clear. And OSS is all about giving people choices, so why not yet another project, right?

-------------------------

No, I am not expecting one person to do all this. That would be ridiculous. What I am asking, is for people to start gathering crucial tidbits - source code, existing kernel patches, "feature requests" (loosely). All the interesting stuff that makes this community great. :D

Obviously the 2009HE project can't start until the N900 drops and Nokia uploads releases the flashable binaries. Along with the "finalized" SDK. But that doesn't mean we can't begin to gather up stuff.

--------------

Personally I don't plan on "upgrading" until at least the RX-71/N900 successor. However, I don't plan on selling my N810. Even with a better device this thing has a million and one uses. I'll keep using it until it breaks (I hope not) and still see if I can't find a use for it after that. I am not aware of ["current"] truly comparable devices. And certainly none backed by a community as strong as this.

In conclusion, I would like to thank everyone on here that has helped make these tablets awesome. Thank you, thank you very much!

(and yes I write these rants with the explicit purpose of annoying the maemo.org board and team Nokia ;) )

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

This is something I strongly agree with. I too am personally frightened by the prospect of everyone abandoning n8x0 and diablo, especially considering why I can't get the n900 now ..

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Care to elaborate?

Yes, they've made that clear, but what do you think they've clarified that to be?

Because we have a finite number of resources to work with and long-term solutions like Mer are much better places to put effort than short-term backports and Hacker Editions.

By all means, if you want to see a backport happen, feel free to make it happen.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I certainly admire your passion-- and if I actually knew something about linux I'd be glad to help... but I'll root for you. :D

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

L.E., you know about this and this, right?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Grab Mer's kernel package and rebuild it, that should do the trick. Kernel works just fine for Diablo (thanks to TomaszD, qwerty12 for all the hard work put into that kernel, as well as all the patch contributors)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Well, speaking as an owner of both, the N800 was an improved 770 in every way that counts. The N900 is not a direct upgrade from the N810 - different device class, form factor, screen size, UI use cases, input methods etc.

But yeah, we're already talking about community updates for Diablo, see the links in buurmas' post.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Just noticed this one .. Keep in mind the big showstopper and flaw in your idea is the fact 770 is ARMv5 (no VFP) and N8x0 is ARMv6+VFP and Fremantle/armel binaries are ARMv7 built.. This means you can't use Fremantle/armel binaries on these devices..

Also, what would happen to the 2009HE project when most people move on?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I wouldn't worry that everybody suddenly abandons the N8x0.

Going from N8x0 to N900 is imo a completely different thing than going from N700 to N8x0.

Compared to it's predecessors the N900 is covering different usecases. While the N900 certainly brings some nice improvements, there are also some disadvantages, where Nokia had to make compromises due to the smaller form factor. Smaller screen, less hardware keys, probably reduced battery life...
And it's much more expensive than the previous internet tablets.

So I guess quite a few people will stick to their N8x0 ITs and wait at least for the next Maemo device after the N900. Especially the ones who don't really need a smartphone, but just want an internet tablet.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

There will probably be a deluge of cheap N800s and N810s being sold off soon, so there should remain plenty of interest in the platform for a while yet.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Yes, the n8x0 NITs won't suddenly be abandoned. But there is the very real danger that they will eventually become relics (like the Sharp Zaurus) because they start to physically fail from wear and tear after years of mobile use and/or because the difference in their raw computing performance with the generation of MIDs in say 2012 will be so great that people will not want to use them (even if you prefer the Diablo OS and associated UI) for mainstream tasks like web surfing.

A big +1 for saving Diablo! How do we do that?

As of now, Diablo is only available on the N8x0 NITs, and thus currently seems destined to share their long-term fate. This implies that if we want to save Diablo (for more than 3 years or so), then it has to be disassociated from the N8x0 NITs. This is complicated because of the 3rd party closed source components in Diablo, but if Nokia is not going to use Diablo anymore, then they should do right by their professed support for open source and make it available (in more than an edition that can only be used on the N8x0s), sub-license, sub-contract, sell, transfer, etc., whatever rights they have in Diablo to the extent possible... (and I admit we don't know what is possible).

(Yes, I am familiar with Mer and I advocate for it but saving Diablo for posterity is not the only goal of Mer.)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Yes there will be interest for awhile, but what about longer term when the supply of Diablo based devices dries up? It should become legal at some point in the future to install Diablo on another device. How do we help that happen?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

You mean saving 770/N8x0? We hardly use Diablo code :)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Hi everyone and thanks for opening this thread linuxeventually !

We are exactly at the same point where we were when the 810
appeared. Everyone is talking about hardware and NOKIA has
made a big improve on the possibilites and the OS with the n900.
And unnecessary to say that It looks awesome.

But about what i have seen, it's nothing but an optimized
media-player-phone UI so it think that it realy depends on
how you are going to use the device (phone, media player, gaming?)

And that's the difference for me: The n900 is more like
an iPhone derivate while Diablo AND Mer are a real OS
where i can act the way i might do daily with XP, Vista or OSx.

It's not that i hate the iPhone, but it's just a phone.
And it always will be for me.
But my Diablo n800 is a system where i can do much more
then simply be a content generator for my OVI or social network
provider. It's a system i can play and hack with.

Instead of publishing a newer device, NOKIA should have been
thinking about making the whole system much more end user
interesting by bringing the huge amount of possibilites that *nix
offers.

Nevertheless, i am also not going to buy the n900 if there will be
only adopted games, farting sound machine or cocain sniff apps.
I want a device that i can work AND play with.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

You expect them to stay behind on an older device instead of trying to advance things with new ones? REALLY?

Things don't work that way, sorry.

They *are* pushing the huge amount of possibilities that *nix offers. They are making the system much more "end user interesting". It's called the N900 and it's happy to get to know you.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

The whole idea of the N900 UI/desktop is to use it and customize it as you want to. Believe it or not, a flowing UI can actually make one more productive.

If anything, due to is capabilities, the N900 and Maemo 5 are the closest thing a mobile OS is to a desktop OS so far.

The N900 is being billed as mobile computer first, that can make phone calls. Never as a smartphone.


N900 and Maemo 5 is as hackable as the previous tablets.

If we agree in end user as a massive, non-techie user, then you can't really complain that the UI being too fancy and then complain that is not end user interesting.

If you are thinking in end-user more as a *nix power user, then it has been shown already that the N900, due to its powerful hardware, can bring even more *nix capabilities to the mobile world. Easy Debian will be on it, for example.

Please do not assume so much and take a look around. Productivity applications are on their way. Games should too.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

No, I don't mean saving the devices. I meant saving Diablo - the software. Maybe you didn't see my earlier post thinking out loud that we might want to try to disassociate Diablo from N8x0?

Yes, OK, Mer hardly uses Diablo code any more. That proves the point, as wonderful as Mer is, it is not the project for saving Diablo.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I think the way forward is Mer, and seeing whether Mer can be shaped to meet the needs of n8x0 users.

If the community continues Diablo, that is only one part of a healthy system. Beyond using up community resources for Diablo itself, we'll need to convince application developers to also to continue to push out updates for their Diablo versions. Ie Maemo Mapper, pwsafe, etc. They will likely focus more and more on the API's in Fremantle/Mer.

I think it is much more strategic to focus on Mer, and hopefully make the developers lives easier to put out Mer builds of their Fremantle applications. I'm not sure if OBS is going to make that a snap, but possibly.

Making life easy for an open source developer is one of the key ingredients to success.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

In that case they should not had made the screen so small and used an inferior screen option. It's a smartphone.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

It's whatever it's labeled, and that's mobile computer-- with a small screen.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Nooo...it's what it is. A smartphone labeled a mobile computer with a small screen.

Anyway, I'll shut up and be "reasonable".

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Phew, the screen size issue was debated to death some time ago, and yeah it was also said that the Tablet format was gone in favor for Smartphone one.

I remember being commented that the new size was thought as the non-full screen mode of current apps in current tablets. Start your app, do not maximize it, and that's the size you were getting.

Despite everything, the N900, from the official web page "a high-performance mobile computer with a powerful processor, large internal storage, and sharp touch-screen display."

Now, if you say "inferior" because it is resistive, well, that is not the case. Resistive has been adopted because the user cases for the N900 see it suitable; AND reports from people that has actually used the tablet mention it as very sensitive (at the point they couldn't guess if it was capacitive or not) and that the UI has been designed in such a way that the use of a stylus is not needed (but it is there if you want/need it).

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

If there is a standard computer screen size rule that determines the minimum size acceptable before a company can label a device so, I'm open to it. Link?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Just because a company would like to market something as X doesn't mean it's not Y. In this case, it's a smartphone.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Well, we know the reasons why Nokia decided to billed it as a mobile computer: its capabilities, specs and designed way of use (almost no portrait mode), and software heritage, between others. Would be interesting to know your parameters to call it a smartphone.

For what is worth, I have been showing the info of the N900 to friends with different backgrounds, and none guessed that it could make phone calls. Everyone thought it was a mobile computer (heck they even said "mobile" by themselves).

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

On topic:

I really want to see the "Community SSU" happen. Package up all the patches that we've already got (plus the RTComm Beta ;) ) and ship it to the masses!

Off topic:

There's nothing inferior about the N900's screen. Small, yes. Inferior, no. You've never seen a smartphone with a screen like this.

Maemo 5 doesn't feel like a smartphone OS. It feels like the tablet OS with a telephony component added in. The phone capabilities are very much a secondary thing.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Off-topic: and btw, qole has actually used the N900 ;)

On-topic: What is needed for the community SSU to happen? I have been reading the threads, but not sure about it. I am getting a bit bored of OS2008 (specially compared to what I read of the N900), but Mer seems a bit far away still... and Android is in the same (N800 with full Android would be very interesting...)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I'm not sure that community supported SSU could be done without liability falling upon Nokia for mistakes the community may potentially make.

Paging Dr. Quim?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Hey, but if *I* decide the phone capabilities are primary, then they are! :p

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Someone failed Logic 101.

Anyway I've decided the N900 is a pineapple, and I'm going to complain about its flavor.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

it is quite unfortunate, but the last "real" hope for N8x0 series is Mer, and it needs a lot of time (2 years at least!) to be mature enough to substitute maemo 4...

too bad... really. i kinda like my n800 (i'm trying to test a dual ps2-USB converter... N800 + keyboard + mouse =wtf a full pc?!?!?!)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

There's also: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30648

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Seems like you've failed at enough things in life to be able to point it out.

I'm out. Enjoy your fanboyism.

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Where'd you get that number?

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Wow! When I got home last night the first thread I read was one where you posted about karma and whatnot... I defended your right to ask a question and was surprised this morning when there was not more community support for my position... Now I see why :eek:

Your inappropriate remark about another members life outside this forum is way out of line. :mad:



***

Back on topic... I'm with the camp that believes that the build quality of the N**'s is so good that we will see another wave of enthusiastic users soon. :)

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

Step-by-step outline:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=304018

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

While the Cummunity SSU would extend the end-of-life of N8x0 devices and permit the community to develop and manage Diablo updates (worthy goals no doubt), I think this thread (or at least my comment) attempts to address the concern that the resulting code will still be owned and distributed by Nokia and, as a practical matter, will die when the N8x0 devices eventually die out.

So the people making comments about the Community SSU, I take it you don't disagree necessarily with saving Diablo, it's just that you give a preference or higher priority for the Community SSU??

Re: Save Diablo! (a rant and request)
 

I could see some effort into putting out an SSU for fixes already available, and possibly other bug fixes if people get motivated enough to fix them. The goal is to spend a little time to get rid of nagging bugs, so that Diablo is more livable until Mer is ready for normal users.

I wouldn't suggest major new functionality for Diablo.