Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

You just end up with 2 toolkits, Swing and GTK (Maemo 5) or Qt (Maemo 6). Not recommended for the faint of heart although for backwards compatibility its either an option or not.

Ability to use Java applets is also sometimes required as example above.

I don't believe Java support on the device is going to be a killer feature though, but doesn't mean those who care should stop caring.

Can one not simply port their Java application to Qt Jambi? Provided one has access to source that is.

FWIW, I've made a stub for Java at Maemo wiki the old article was unnecessarily technical, out of date, and mostly about Nokia 770.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I'm unfamiliar with "Qt Jambi"....but whatever it is, it ain't gonna work unless the specific JRE you install has been compiled for both your hardware and OS/framework environment.

Think about it...when the particular bytecode is executed in the JVM...how does it know what to call through to to cause the OS and graphical interface system to display a nice window or button? Now consider the limitations of the hildon framework - we don't have outer app windows floating around on a big desktop....the available real estate on the device has constrained the GUI framework, and that constraint must therefore be passed onto the relevant Java APIs.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

take a look at the java se embedded site once again.

you'll notice, these packages are not only compiled for ARMv6, but also linked to glibc2.5.
you'll also notice there are "headful" and "headless" packages. "headful" just means linked to X11R6.

in a headful package, frameworks like swing have their own controls to be used by any application. API calls made by swing are basic drawing calls to X11(as in, pixel here, line there etc.).

for a hildonized button (which swing by itself does neither offer, nor know about or even care), you'll need something like the bindings allnameswereout mentioned (thank you btw, didn't know they existed).

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

:confused: lets say we have a hypothetic open source Java application using Swing as toolkit.

We port it to Qt Jambi (Java bindings for Qt), and run this in the JVM.

It will look native Qt, the code remains Java, and runs on X11. Just like when I run Qt application on Mac OS X it uses COCOA but internal code is almost completely same as Linux, Windows version.

So, except for the fact our application isn't hildonized (the horror, frankly I don't give a flying dodo about, as long-term is about Qt anyway, it isn't worth it) why would that not work well?

The Java application _is_ using Qt and it 'Qtized', and the JVM hasn't got anything to do with Qt.

If the Qt 4.6 for Maemo works well, and Qt Jambi is supported, all this will easily work too. Although there is no Qt Jambi for embedded as of now.

The problem is with closed source Java applications, and web applets. Those may seem fugly.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Drop "hypothetic" and think of how many such applications exist that are actually useful. This should provide you with the answer why Java is not on the device.

PS: We are talking JavaSE here, not JavaME, so Opera and games do not count =)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

well, here is one example.

just because you can't think of useful java apps, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Ok, and what does this example do? As far as I can tell, this is just some guy trying to run some custom piece of business software.

Back to square one: How many useful Java apps do you actually know? Please, exclude JavaME (separate case) and custom corporate middleware (does not qualify as useful for general public).

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

and what exactly makes that less valid ??

i'm not gonna list examples, that would be of no use to you or anyone. fine, you don't need java. other people do, which is exactly my point. here we are talking about ways to deliver it, and you seem to convince us not to do it, which is counterproductive.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Actually, it would be of good use to me: I would genuinely like to know just what useful general purpose applications have ever been written in Java. I know of just one (Eclipse) that at least some people find useful. Are there any others?

Well, I would like to know how many "other people" really need Java? I mean, not to entertain themselves programming in it, but to run real Java apps?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

well, i myself would actually need it for "custom corporate middleware" :)

for one, i need it to be able to place orders with my bank on the go. i can't do that now (unless i have my laptop with me, which i usually don't), and it's not a must-have or dealbreaker or anything like that. i don't even know if the bank's applet would be usable on the n900 (icon and screen size), but i sure would like to try :)

another use case for me would be logging in remotely to my corporate desktop. my company offers 3 options: activex (no need to elaborate), a local citrix client (which i haven't actually looked into as a possibility on the n900), and a java applet. again, it's not something that i currently can do or that i'm sure would work, but it would be quite nice to have.

basically, you're right about the reason why java doesn't come with the n900 out-of-the box (and why it didn't on earlier tablets). there are not really many use cases for it on such devices, but they do exist :)
which makes pursuing this goal worthwhile.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I see.

You should then download Jalimo and start hacking, shouldn't you? :)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

as soon as i get my n900, i will :)
openjre also sounded very interesting, for that matter.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Being trying to follow this thread, but I got lost in the various sorts of java. I think the sort you're talking about is the sort that BlackBoard runs on, which is he software used at universities and colleges for distance larning. That's what I'd want it for.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Yep. Non cpu intense apps it would be fine, but for things like emulators or medai apps using codecs it would not.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Well, there are three sorts of Java the normal consumer should care:

1. Android Java, running on top of its own virtual machine (aka Dalvik). As long as you do not have Android, you can disregard this variety.

2. JavaME also known as MIDP, also known as J2ME, also known as PhoneME is a somewhat lobotomized version of Java supported by most mobile phones. Most mobile games and some mobile apps running on dumb phones are written using this version of Java.

3. JavaSE is the desktop Java. If you ever run a Java application on your PC or Mac, or a Java applet in your browser, it is most likely written in JavaSE. The number of widely used Java applications is near nil though, mostly due to problems with performance, compatibility, and maintenance, so you are unlikely to ever use this one.

Of these three, only #2 (JavaME) is of practical interest to a big number of users, because everybody is used to MIDP games on their phones. Unfortunately, there is still no standalone JavaME package for the tablets, that would instantly allow users to play .jar and .jad files with MIDP games.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Ahh right. Android java I have no experience of.

J2ME is a term I recognise. That's what my shopping list runs on, in my current devices. (And jtwitter, which I can't wait to put behind me) Yes, it would be nifty if n900 could carry that.

JavaSE would indeed be what Blackboard runs. It has a forum system - I never worked out why it needed to be java. I can't reply to anything from an NHS computer because the java on those is out of date (they run XP with IE6 :p and regular staff don't have admin access to update.) I was under the impression that n900 could handly that sort of java? Did I not see it running a chat applet in one of the videos? (Or did I dream that bit?)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

don't underestimate just how much of the aforementioned corporate middleware there is :)
the second example of mine, citrix access gateway, is fairly widespread.

probably a question of the definition of "widely" ;)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Java applications are used a lot on the web. The smaller things like tic-tac-toe kind of games are irrelevant, but for example, Runescape is done in Java, and so are chat applications on some sites. IMHO, a device can't really claim to offer the full web experience without Java.

Consumer desktop applications tend not to use Java, but as others have said, many of us do use Java applications in a work setting. From my personal user's perspective, I really haven't witnessed poor performance. For example the RealVNC Java application has worked just fine for me. There's a longer wait when you start a Java application for the first time during your OS session, but even that disappears on subsequent use.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

The iPhone is the phone everybody wants to beat, so what must Nokia do to make Maemo better. I have some ideas and one of them is Java.

Every iPhone developer a have talked to complains about the awful IDE that Apple provides Xcode. That feel like going back to how Java IDEs looked 10 years ago. They also complains about having to work in C and specifically memory management. If development is done is Java everybody can use their favourite IDE (Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, etc) and on device debugging can be used easily.

JavaME is a must so that it can be used until the native Maemo apps are created. I won't buy a phone that don't have JavaME.

There should also be JavaSE on the device and QT bindings for the developers that want leverage all the native power. With JNI most of an app could be written in Java with callout to the native platform for performance or hooks into native functions.

JavaFX would be nice but I don't think that it would make difference on the sales of the devices.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

So you want speed and java. Yeah thats not going to happen. As an android coder who also codes in C I can tell you there is no comparisson in performance. The reason java coders hate to code in C is because it forces you to think about memory allocation and freeing and that goes against the " throw everything into memory and let garbage collection sort it out " mentality that most Java coders have.

Trust me the surest way to take something fast and hobble it is chuck Java into the mix. Here is an example.

I have a pixel by pixel filter I compiled on my G1 in C and also the same filter in Java. The C version runs in 2 seconds on a selected image, the Java version takes 20 and on top of that half the time it craps out because the jvm runs out of memory.

Take from that what you will I guess

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

...and this returns us to the importance of correct memory allocation :) Like someone said good five+ years ago, "if Java is the answer, then what the hell was the question?"

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Easy: look a few posts above for someone who hates C memory allocation. You get what you ask for ;)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

If SUN wants JavaFX run on Nokia N900 they're gonna need either Java ME or Java SE on Nokia N900. For now, SUN is merely providing an early access version of JavaFX for Windows Mobile though.

Once JavaFX is ported to Linux/x86-32 it shouldn't be too hard to port to Linux/ARM because it already is ported to WM6/ARM. Shouldn't be too hard for SUN if proprietary or official port, for community if open source, or both.

It is nice to have backwards compatibility. I've taken advantage of this before. Sometimes, it is beyond your control because you have no power over it because your employer or business partner decides the software to be used. For example, in past I had to use Java for .nl ccTLD administration. Some custom software we run is proprietary and requires Java, they cannot be rewritten (would cost too much), and it'd be nice if I wouldn't need to use a seperate device than N900 to run these. Some corporations also require usage of Java applet, with their only alternative (if there is one!) being a bad interface. For a long time my bank required Java! I need Java to get remote desktop over HTTP, too.

We all have different needs. I don't need any of the game emulators yet they're popular. LUA was useful on Diablo for me but I doubt it was much used. Regarding Java, we're not necessarily talking about out of the box which is also both related to chicken/egg, as well as legacy from non-opensource Java.

Although you said no Java ME on S60 phone I have Opera Mini 5 as my backup browser. I like to use it when roaming. I've even used Opera Mini 4.2 on S40 phones in an emergency. I don't yet how I'm going to fix this on my N900...

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Who, other then SUN, even needs JavaFX? Are there any useful JavaFX applications? Will there ever be any? As far as I can tell, the world seems to have standardized on Flash for these purposes.

I have not said "no" to JavaME. In fact, I continue insisting that we absolutely need JavaME on Maemo, because there are so many applications written in JavaME on the market.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I was wondering whether http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm would help consolidating this interesting discussion in one proposal with potential solutions listed.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Unfortunately a lot of people, like you, think that there is a jvm in the Android platform. The vm used in Android is called Dalvik and it is not a jvm. The only thing Java about Android is the syntax and the syntax has little to do with performance. Thus your example has no relevance in the Java discussion.

The most important thing lacking in the Dalvik VM is a JIT. The difference in speed has been measured to 5-10 times faster with the JIT. The actual speed naturally depends on what you do but a better figure to use is that Java runs at about 80% of the speed of native programs.

If you had read all of my post you would have noticed that I see the need for some programs and parts of programs that run on the native platform.

However most applications are not image filtering and why would you want to to manage the memory of simple data lookup and entering app?

I think we have all see all those great C developers that "know" how handle memory of apps the leak memory, forcing us to restart the app regularly. A large number of security holes are due to developer that cannot handle a simple buffer overflow. I guess we have to expect a huge increase in mobile worms in the future.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I have not used it before so don't know how it works. But I like the idea to consolidating this interesting discussion in one proposal with potential solutions listed

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I think also it would be very interesting to be able to run eRCP applications. It is a solution from a Eclipse project called eRCP. eRCP is installed on top of JavaME/CDC1.1/FP1.1 and using eSWT instead of AGUI or LCDUI(MIDP). This is something I also think Nokia would like to support because they are supporting this technology since many years in the eRCP project. eSWT support is already added in Nokias's S60 Java runtime from S60 v3.2 because eSWT don't need JavaME/CDC support, it runs also on top of JavaME/CLDC/MIDP.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Ok. How many applications use eRCP/eSWT at the moment?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I have compiled a little list of options for Java ME and Java SE, which i would put on brainstorm. i'd like to get a few comments on it here first, though :)

these are mostly options allnameswereout mentioned. i have no idea about the compatibility of open source implementations with the official one. maybe someone could elaborate on that.

i also put in the possibilities of nokia porting open source implementations of SE and ME, though i'm not sure that's even realistic, since it would mean effort without being able to say "Java compatible". if you think these options are not even worth mentioning i will leave them out.



Proposal 1:
Java ME

nokia buys Java ME royalities and lets sun port it
+) official implementation, official support
-) probably quite expensive
-) Closed License

community ports phoneme
more info
+) GPL
-) no team as of yet
-) not "official", so no advertising of MIDP capability
-) no info as to how complete this implementation is

nokia ports phoneme
+-) see above

nokia or the community ports a Java SE implementation,
and we use smth. like microemu for ME compatibility
+-) see above
-) might be a bit slower



Proposal 2:
Java SE

nokia buys java SE embedded royalities and lets sun port it
+) official implementation, official support
-) probably quite expensive
-) Closed License

community ports OpenJDK/JRE 6
more info
+) GPL
-) no team as of yet
-) not "official", so no advertising
-) no info as to how complete this implementation is

nokia ports OpenJDK/JRE 6
+-) see above

community ports Jalimo
+) GPL
-) not much activity lately
-) no advertising, maybe incomplete

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Do you by any chance remember that Nokia already ships J2ME VM with both S40 and S60 phones? In other words, Nokia already has a PhoneME implementation.

Why should "community" port Jalimo which is already ported to the tablet and has packages available from Diablo Extras?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Where does Iced Tea fit in with all these options?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

yes, but not for Maemo. and even if porting from S60 to Maemo would be easy, nokia still would have to license it for the new platform/device.

well, the last news concerning maemo on the project site is this:

"Simultaneous with the launch of the wiki, we have started to support
maemo4. Currently cacao, classpath and SWT are tested and work fine.
They have the same features and limitations, as for maemo3. But we hope
to improve the support on maemo4, soon. Since maemo moved to gtk2.10 and
cairo, we have some more options on this platform."

to me, that suggests that even more work will be needed to optimize it for maemo5. granted, the build for chinook might run out of the box ( i haven't read anything from people who got a n900 already, links are welcome :) ).
if it does run well, there is no need for this option and i will not add it.

though that quote also suggests that there is not much activity any more (this entry is from 2007), and if many people vote maybe that could change and even attract new devs for the project.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

very interesting, didn't know about that!

i will add it to the Java SE Proposal:


community or nokia builds Iced Tea
+) true GPL, no binary components
-) no team so far
-) no official advertising

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

the inclusion of Java is essential to offer a complete development platform to all developers not only C, C + +, Python, etc. ..

From this we can think how to integrate Java in Maemo

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I just found something on the Nokia Forums: link.

that seems to be an official statement, is there any point in including the "nokia options" in the brainstorm proposal now, qgil?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

MIDP 3.0 is in Proposed Final Draft, so there is no JavaME VM with support yet. Read more here: http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communitypr...271/index.html

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Is the guy who has made this statement working for Nokia?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!