Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Not many I think, not so many phones support eRCP yet.
No phone from Nokia support eRCP, but eSWT is supported in all Nokia S60 phones from version 3.2.

There is the new Sprint Titan platform with OSGI Technology in the Mobile, it will be released very soon (???), with support first for eRCP (IBM/j9) on windows Mobile devices. I did not found so much about at http://developer.sprint.com/ , but I found this about developer Tools for the Sprint Titan Platform: http://developers.sun.com/mobility/c...oads/index.jsp

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Then, personally, I do not see any reason to support these. The only reason to support any kind of Java is to get access to existing library of applications.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

thank you for the link, but that posting is not about a MIDP 3.0 runtime. he just mentions that they would have to make revisions to their implementation once it comes out.

yes, i think this is a nokia employee. his picture, title and activity suggest that.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

He is, he also has account here on t.m.o btw.

Yes, I realize that, which is why I wrote its in _SUN's_ interest.

It is, IMO, in our interest because:
1) We'd get Java ME and/or Java SE.
2) We get a more competitor to Adobe Flash and Microsoft Silverlight which is more open.

As Java hater I suppose one would see point #1 as negative.

As of now, more interesting is compatibility layer for Android, or even iPhone OS. I don't mean to run complete Android OS, but to run an application which is unique to Android without replacement/alternative/port on Maemo. Ofcourse, native is better, similar pro/con exist for WINE on Linux/x86-32 desktop.

Excuse me, didn't quote the part I replied to. It was reference to your (reasonable) request not to mention Java ME applications. :)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I doubt Nokia will ever do anything about Android compatibility, so it is purely in the hands of community. As to J2ME, there is some hope.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Hi, I put this and your previous post on wiki so we can edit it easier. I added 2 'TODO' as well. The entry is Task:Brainstorm_Java. Please feel free to delete it after you made your Brainstorm entry. The formatting is a bit messed up but I cannot fix that right now, hopefully in an hour. Formatting of this entry and Java entry should be OK now. Ciao.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I know all about Dalvik and regardless of what you call it its a JVM, and there is no friggin way in the world it runs at 80% of native C.

What YOU apparently are unaware of is that Android has achieved a lot of its speed improvements by cutting huge chunks out of the standard Java API and by customizing the graphics layer instead of using swing. Simply adding Java to the n900 isnt going to give us the same performance.

Lastly - memory management is required in any and all apps. Particularly a data retrieval app where its easy to lost track of how much memory a data object is using.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I don't usually get like this on forums, but your attitude is beginning to really annoy me.
Fine, you don't use Java or Java apps. Yes, we get that. In that case, the provision of a Java SE or Java ME layer will have zero impact on your usage of the device.
I can't think of any Ruby based apps off of the top of my head, but I welcome the availability (or development) of a ruby environment on the N900 (or any other platform) for the simple fact that it only increases options.

Let's look at the pros and cons of the Java environment being made available :-

Pros :
* Users can run Java (SE/ME) apps - if they want to ... no-one is forcing you to do so.

Cons :
* A few megs of storage space is used - you could spend a few minutes writing a shell script to delete all the Java stuff if you were that bothered,

There. That's it. Unless you have something constructive to say, please either STFU or find another thread, this one could probably use some attention.

@Everyone else - yeah, I've probably just fed an annoying, yet unusually persistent, troll - castigate me if you will.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

You are missing the point. The point was that people do use JavaME apps but not JavaSE apps. The point also was that it is only worth implementing frameworks that are in wide use.

And that is why Ruby is not available on the tablets out of the box, isn't it?

Well, there is third-party JavaSE for the tablets (Jalimo). You can go to Extras and install it from there right away, and get all the Java goodness, the command line launch interface, the CLASSPATH fiddling, etc.

If you want Java to be present on tablets by default though, this will cost Nokia money and time developing and integrating it. Don't you think it should be counted among cons as well?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

okay this one give me a lil worry, i need to open blackboard on my browser as most of university in the world use this blackboard for their online learning tools.. i was thinking that blackboard need javascript not the javaSE...

so is there anyone here can confirm or try blackboard site on their N900? if they have one..

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I have a need for full java support in Maemo browser. I would like to use N900 with a java application used by http://www.routegadget.net/ to draw my route in orienteering.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I don't see Jalimo listed here :confused:

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Check here:

https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo

Jalimo is definitely present in Diablo Extras. It is not in any of the Fremantle repos, but that is mainly because nobody cares.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I disagree. And Sun disagrees. And the fact is, Dalvik doesn't even run Java bytecode, nor follows the JVM spec.

Also, Dalvik is an interpeter and thus can forget about any kind of performance comaprable to C. Unlike JITs, which can on certain workloads. Of course, that does not mean Dalvik/Java is useless for interactive (read: 99% of wall clock time waiting for user input) stuff.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

That page mentions Chinook, and I don't see Jalimo here either.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I've been pretty impressed with OpenJDK/IcedTea on the tablets. It is pretty slow, but it is a very complete implementation of Java SE.

I haven't attempted it on the N900, but if it were fast enough, it certainly would be the way to go.

Note that the Debian armel version linked above might be an excellent place to start with a Maemo port.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

On the topic of garbage collection for a moment:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/

Now you have the speed of C/C++ with the convenience of Java's garbage collection, only requiring simple malloc/realloc replacements.

* of course, there are many other compelling reasons people use Java. I just thought I'd mention out this little-known gem.

}:^)~

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

You are right, and I have been incorrect. The PackRat shows Jalimo only in their own repo:

http://ageofikon.info/packrat/index....ection=&Repo=0

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Hi,
I am the project lead for the Eclipse eRCP project that was mentioned earlier in this thread. Also I work for Nokia as part of the team that develops the Java Runtime for the Nokia Symbian devices.

I usually do not like to respond to these because they tend to get nowhere and become more about personal choices. However I think I have not engaged to maemo community before and I think some of the information I can provide may help.

First about eRCP, eRCP is an OSGi based environment that aims to carry some of the desktop Eclipse RCP pieces to mobile. The crown jewel of these pieces is eSWT UI toolkit. Nokia's S60 based phones ship eSWT (not the full eRCP stack) as part of the device and eSWT can be used from MIDP runtime. eSWT fits rather nicely to our purposes because it is basically a thin wrapper of the platform's UI toolkit. It does not impose its own look and feel like the Java's own Swing. Recently, Nokia contributed an eSWT port on Qt to eRCP project the first early access packages of eRCP including the contributed eSWT is available. Although we do not provide a package at this time, this port is known to work for maemo and it is possible to provide a package for maemo as well. eSWT's Qt port may be significant for maemo Java because it provides a future proof solution for Java UIs.

Since porting the S60 Java to maemo was listed earlier as an option some information on that. Actually when we started the work on Java Runtime 2.0, we have considered that maemo would be another target and decided to implement it cross-platform. Later when maemo showed no interest, some of the cross-platform requirements were dropped. However a significant part of the runtime can work on maemo. at least the Java UIs(eSWT and MIDP UI), installer, application launchers etc. are cross-platform. As for APIs like bluetooth, location, wireless messaging, mutimedia etc. A few of those already have their maemo implementation ready. So porting this S60 Java is a closer goal than most think.

Also Java SE is also mentioned as an option here. I believe full Java SE is too bloated for mobile(includes corba, jdbc etc). Also Android does not ship full Java SE libraries but rather a subset. I also do not think MIDP is good enough for a powerful platform as maemo(or any smartphone). Ideally Java platform should support MIDP but should provide a subset of JavaSE APIs and latest language features to be competitive against Android.

I still have more to say but this is rather long post already. I hope this is somewhat helpful information.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Thanks for the informative post!

What do you think are the chances of this happening? Alternatively what are the chances of the necessary code being made available so a community effort can proceed?

My main concern is getting as much application compatibility as possible into Maemo. I think realistically it's assumed that new smartphones are competent in a number of different areas (phone, maps, photography, web, scheduling etc) with the differentiating factor being applications.

If people with Maemo can have Linux applications, Maemo applications, the new cross platform QT framework applications, Java applications and Android applications then it becomes a very attractive device that essentially commoditises application compatibility and makes it a "standard feature" that you can run applications from anywhere.

What I really want to be able to do is run the Java applications I like (gmail, google maps, opera mini) and my first thought was looking at the open source J2ME project and porting that. If the bulk of the work is already done by Nokia it would be a shame for the community to have to replicate that.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I totally agree with you!
I could also add for a enterprise customer that already had made strategic decisions about what platform they should use on the server (for example JavaEE) and on the client (for example JavaME), these company usually don't think Maemo devices is choose now, because there is no JavaME support. They think it is to expensive to port already existent JavaME applications and they also have not developers with Qt knowledge.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I believe it was maemo's decision not to have it. I think someone from maemo can provide a better answer for the chances of it happening. On the other hand, the code for is the S60 Java Runtime is considered to be contributed to Symbian Foundation.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Sure Enterprise has always been a big area for Java - I would think there are quite a few bespoke Java apps out there and organisations that can't/won't authorise devices which are not capable of running them.

Java is probably one of the least visible platforms to most people so it leads them to think it's not all that important. Unfortunately Android seems to have brought the perception of Java right back to the 90s if this thread is any indication.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

More Apps the better surely. Right now there are two places that those Apps can seriosly bolster the N900 catalog :Java and Flash without asking the developers to make a switch.

Understand Nokias hesitation as Qt is the strategic way forwards, but i cant see either of the above developers making the switch as they have so many other platforms to worry about other than Maemo.


Mike C

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Qole are you saying that iced tea debs work on the N810? If so how have you installed and tested?

Mike C

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

I have now posted the two brainstorm proposals with the discussed solutions. i'll leave the wiki page as-is for now.

Please vote here for Java ME solutions.

Please vote here for Java SE solutions.

i have kept the options of nokia providing the commercial versions, but dropped the options where nokia ports open implementations.
i also tried to give a little information with the solutions, so people have a picture what they're voting about.

if anyone spots incorrect information or has a new option to offer, feel free to tell me to correct it or to post additional solutions!

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Perhaps add:
Solution #4: Community ports S60 Java Runtime as it is considered to be contributed to Symbian Foundation.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

do we have access to the source of the S60 Java Runtime? the link gorkem provided does not have any information on this, and i don't know enough about the symbian foundation and it's licensing scheme to judge from.

when we have verified this as a possible option, i will add it.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

From http://developer.symbian.org/forum/s...ead.php?t=2229

That was at the end of June. Maybe it's changed since then but I can't find any sign of the source code there.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Yes I agree, someone from Nokia have to answer when S60 Java Runtime will contributed to Symbian Foundation, perhaps get the information first and then vote, at Nokia Developer Summit, Nokia talked about before end of this year, but I don't know?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Well, like always, it was through Easy Debian (and Easy Mer) :)

(see here, here, here and here for some screen shots)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

OK Cheers, easy debs is my next new friend

Mike C

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Well, in the context of a mobile device/computer such as the N900, asking for JavaSE AND JavaME doesn't seem too far fetched :)

In any case, the Opera Mini's experience is excellent in my Kaiser (touchscreen+qwerty usage) and in my Samsung E590 (no-touch, phonepad smartphone), just to name my current (in-use) devices. Running the fast (both in native performance and network-wise) Mini in N900 would elevate the device "value"... just IMHO :)

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

*push*

*trying to collect more votes* :)

Re: Java for Maemo 5
 

I'd vote for at least one of them, but I don't know which. I've read countless threads concerning Java on Maemo and numerious wiki pages, but I just can make sense over what I need.

Java ME, Java SE, Jalimo, PhoneME, headless, Eclipse, Jazelle, ThumbEE - all these terms are great and I have a loose understanding how they relate to each other, but all I really want is for my Corporate Lotus Notes Web Email Service to work right when I'm on the road. Any guidance for what I should vote for. :confused:

Something tell me this would be so much easier if Sun would just port a free version of their Java to Maemo - just like it works for Windows system. :D

Re: Java for Maemo 5
 

Java SE.
Java ME - java used in dumb-phones.
Having Jazelle supported would also be nice - it's a feature of some ARM cpus to execute java code directly (at least parts of it).

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Funily enough a lot of developers use languages other than Java. Android is a Java environment and as such is an obvious platform.

Sun are the ones that would need to port, support & maintain such a platform not Nokia. If you feel that the N900 needs Java then maybe you should organise a petition to Sun?

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

Depends on type of Java, depends on JVM used, etc etc.

Sun could port on contract, Nokia could ask Sun and then pay royalties, etc etc.

Your post clearly excludes possibility of unofficial Java support (with or without Nokia help) by excluding branding & certification. Which is why Android is not a Java SE environment; it doesn't pass the certification.

Because Java SE was not open source and because now it is GPL but required additional components to be replaced there are many options and they are part of the reason of this thread, as they're looked into here. The result of the discussion you can find on Brainstorm and Wiki.

Bottomline is: to run Java you do not need Sun to necessarily port Sun's Java SE to your platform. You need to get your port certified as being Java which requires a huge compatibility test which must pass completely. IBM, for example, has passed this certification for many years!

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

sun won't do anything unless someone pays 'em or the platform is widespread enough.

Re: Java support on N900, the missing thing!!
 

My point entirely!