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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   N900 will not allow USB OTG! (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31921)

attila77 2009-09-22 09:19
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joppu (Post 331266)
Too bad N900 won't probably play back 720p smoothly.
I might have been unclear. I do this with my N810 and I don't watch the video on the NIT - just use it to offload recordings to a HDD.

PS The N900 playback quality will depend how well we can use the DSP and other extensions - the OMAP34340 should be very capable of 720p if the extensions are fully utilized.

allnameswereout 2009-09-22 09:51
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 331323)
There is nothing in this device (or in any of the other devices you suggested) that might be considered a replacement for USB host functionality.
Not even a N800 or Soekris? Zomg the world is collapsing! :eek:

ruskie 2009-09-22 10:13
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
This thread should be added a prefix: Incredibly silly because after a few pages it does get there quickly.

I'm buying this for completly other reasons than having USB-OTG etc.

That said:

"Living in the past because no WiFi(or don't want it)" - a) unsecure b) tedious to setup c) unable to debug Air[TM] ERROR d) unreliable

"Using Serial<>BT" - I find this an excelent idea. Makes it easy to not need crawling around etc. The one downside I see is: farraday cages - a lot of those racks are more or less near such so it would be rather difficult I think to get through.

"Alternative to flash dongles" - a flash dongle that uses a microsd is what I would have expected the usb dongles to be from the start. Sadly none of the manufacturers bothered with it. I tend to have with me atleast 2 microsd cards with adapters for minisd and plain sd and a smallish microsd or plain sd card reader. The problem is when someone just wants for you to copy things from their key to whatever device. I would make it clear I expect only such and such format(considering what mail I autoreject just due to attachments this wouldn't be much of a prob for me). Not to mention all the possible filesystems etc. I don't carry around anything FAT formated.

So yes might suck, might be hackable but the main reason I want this device is:
It's a portable device I can use as a dumb terminal and has a phone bolted on.

I'm not a heavy phone user so the first bit is for me the big deal.

allnameswereout 2009-09-22 10:25
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskie (Post 331341)
"Living in the past because no WiFi(or don't want it)" - a) unsecure
Mwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.

Quote:
"Using Serial<>BT" - I find this an excelent idea. Makes it easy to not need crawling around etc. The one downside I see is: farraday cages
True, my suggestion is not meant for long distance through the server room, but it still makes the N900 'mobile in the hand' so to say. Ie. you can perform a pirouette without tripping over a cable. And given some devices are only accessable via RS232 its either RS232 or RS232 <-> USB/BT/??? adapter. Although the issue I thought of was the insecurity of BlueTooth.

Quote:
"Alternative to flash dongles" - a flash dongle that uses a microsd is what I would have expected the usb dongles to be from the start.
****, I cannot agree more.

Quote:
Sadly none of the manufacturers bothered with it.
Almost none :)

vinc17 2009-09-22 11:07
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashith (Post 331277)
I read from somewhere that Iriver H340 (international version) have two separate USB connectors. 1 for Host mode and 1 for USB peripheral mode.
Miutech's HDPC will have 2 separate USB connectors too. And Ethernet! But it's a bit larger than the N810.

deadmalc 2009-09-22 11:13
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allnameswereout (Post 331346)
Mwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.
Or if you are truly paranoid WPA2 "enterprise" (certificates) with openvpn.

Yes I really am _that_ paranoid! I've even thought about getting that anti wifi paint for my house! lol

vinc17 2009-09-22 11:19
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 331323)
When you connect this (or any similar) device to the N900, the HD controls the connection.
Perhaps from a low-level point of view. But you can have protocols to do whatever you want, i.e. this is a software (firmware) only problem. FYI, I could connect my Zaurus (USB client) to my laptop (USB host) and control everything from my Zaurus. More precisely, I had an IP connection via USB between the two devices.

ruskie 2009-09-22 11:22
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allnameswereout (Post 331346)
Mwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.
And you're back to step 2... tedious setup ;) And of course you might have the horror of having one of those wifi cards that just loves to randomly bring down the entire system.

RobbH 2009-09-22 11:26
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinc17 (Post 331103)
Why using a flash drive when you can transfer the files directly (by USB or wifi)?
You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.

But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?

Thanks, but I'll wait for a pocket computer that actually fits my needs, rather than adapting my work to a poorly designed (in terms of meeting my needs) pocket computer.

YoDude 2009-09-22 11:43
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hqh (Post 330987)
Yes, I agree. It would have been a good bonus feature - but if it's permanently disabled in hardware, people whining online are not going to make it magically appear... ;)
HOWEVER...



At least the publicly available OMAP35x (similar to but not exactly the same used in N900) technical reference manual lists USB2.0 TESTMODE register. It appears that it could be used to force the controller into a specific mode by software, regardless of the ID-pin or connected devices.

The N900 might not deliver power to the port but other than that I still believe the support might be doable by software hacks.
I have also believed that support might be doable by software hacks. Thanks for providing some tech info.

...and

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 330906)
... (It's like dumping your girlfriend of 2+ years for a new, hotter girl, only to find out that she wont do the *same things* your old girlfriend did.)
That^ would suck...

...or not. :p

***

What wasn't very clear to me in all this discusion is:

Can the N900 simultaniously charge and transfer data when connected to a desktop or other computer via USB?

deadmalc 2009-09-22 11:58
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskie (Post 331372)
And you're back to step 2... tedious setup ;) And of course you might have the horror of having one of those wifi cards that just loves to randomly bring down the entire system.
Which is why having SOP's, QA and UAT testing and change management comes in ;-) which makes the setup the least tedious part of the whole process!

Ratva 2009-09-22 12:54
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
http://cgi.ebay.ie/-USB-3G-HSDPA-Mob...0825144001r210

http://www.simsim.lv/index.php?categoryID=2202

http://www.pixmania.com/fi/fi/286623...-wifi-air.html

http://www.coolcomputing.com/article.php?sid=3159

Are these possible solutions or not? How to get n900 to understand these devices? Is there something more like to put in pocket solution available. My opinnion is that wifi is maybe the solution if hacking won't work.

And Amazon has it's own too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...F8&me=&seller=

JayOnThaBeat 2009-09-22 12:57
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
http://www.world-wide-art.com/art/va.../goodgrief.jpg

allnameswereout 2009-09-22 14:07
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbH (Post 331374)
You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.

But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?

Thanks, but I'll wait for a pocket computer that actually fits my needs, rather than adapting my work to a poorly designed (in terms of meeting my needs) pocket computer.
If, instead of 1x 32 GB flash, you would not want 2x 16 GB microSD as alternative I question whether you value the other advantages the N900 has to offer, and it makes me wonder what device you're comparing to which currently does fulfill your needs.

allnameswereout 2009-09-22 14:21
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratva (Post 331426)
http://cgi.ebay.ie/-USB-3G-HSDPA-Mob...0825144001r210

http://www.simsim.lv/index.php?categoryID=2202

http://www.pixmania.com/fi/fi/286623...-wifi-air.html

http://www.coolcomputing.com/article.php?sid=3159

Are these possible solutions or not? How to get n900 to understand these devices? Is there something more like to put in pocket solution available. My opinnion is that wifi is maybe the solution if hacking won't work.

And Amazon has it's own too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...F8&me=&seller=
Noh. I think this would suffice:
1) Linux (or *NIX) computer in small case. Low-power x86-32 or one of the RISC (PPC, ARM, ...).
2) Internal drive bay for 3"5 HDD.
3) One USB OTG port for CD/DVD burning or N900.
4) BlueTooth or WiFi for controlling the device over SSH, HTTPS. These interfaces also allow one to perform CD/DVD burning.
5) Then mounting NIT using SSHFS and then rsync or whatever.
6) Requires power adapter. Maybe add second USB EH port for powering up the NIT. Then you almost have a docking station.
7) The device would be a bit bigger than a standard 3"5 drive bay.

Yes, ofcourse it will cost money. However, I wonder, is this approx what USB OTG proponents would like to use?

thecursedfly 2009-09-22 14:43
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratva (Post 331426)
maybe these two could work, dunno..
the first one looks really like a good solution, also in case of devices which require a powered hub.
though, I need to find more info/hands-on reviews; do they work well with maemo? do they work with any device instead of only as printer servers (looks like the case of the second one)? can I attach a DVD drive to it via USB and stream its contents to the N900?

anyway, a cable/software hack for the N900 microUsb is still preferrable... ;)

edit: review
edit 2: our use case model seems to be covered
edit 3: user manual

quingu 2009-09-22 14:44
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allnameswereout (Post 331487)
Noh. I think this would suffice:
1) Linux (or *NIX) computer in small case. Low-power x86-32 or one of the RISC (PPC, ARM, ...).
2) Internal drive bay for 3"5 HDD.
3) One USB OTG port for CD/DVD burning or N900.
4) BlueTooth or WiFi for controlling the device over SSH, HTTPS. These interfaces also allow one to perform CD/DVD burning.
5) Then mounting NIT using SSHFS and then rsync or whatever.
6) Requires power adapter. Maybe add second USB EH port for powering up the NIT. Then you almost have a docking station.
7) The device would be a bit bigger than a standard 3"5 drive bay.
I think asus makes those... they're called Eee or something... perhaps someone can post a link.

:rolleyes:

allnameswereout 2009-09-22 14:54
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quingu (Post 331504)
I think asus makes those... they're called Eee or something... perhaps someone can post a link.
Eh? Assuming it supports USB OTG since when does Eee come with 3"5 bay? It also comes with a LCD. Formfactor is not what I had in mind (compare to N800 + 3"5 or Soekris). And far too high horsepower for the purpose I mentioned. On a positive note it supposedly has a battery allowing the data to be accessable while travelling.

qole 2009-09-22 16:08
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joppu (Post 331266)
Too bad N900 won't probably play back 720p smoothly.
Um, it doesn't have a 720p screen? It is a high resolution screen for a mobile device, but still half a million pixels short of 720p.

I'm not living in the 720p world yet. I guess when I am, I'll be upset about having to transcode for mobile devices, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 331328)
The N900 playback quality will depend how well we can use the DSP and other extensions - the OMAP34340 should be very capable of 720p if the extensions are fully utilized.
I'm going to try to find some 720 source material and see what it looks like on the somewhat-optimised VLC player...

vinc17 2009-09-22 16:33
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbH (Post 331374)
You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.
But you can't blame Nokia for making choices that would satisfy most users. I'd say that most users will be happy with the N900 concerning file transfers with another computer (I'm talking about file transfers for use with another computer, not just storing data).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbH (Post 331374)
But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?
You're changing the subject. Here you just want to store data. My question was just on the file transfers. I recall what you had said: "The way I expect my mobile computer to exchange files with my desktop and other computers is via flash drive.".

qole 2009-09-22 16:42
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
This is where Shepherd will be useful! When you plug a USB device into your NIT, Shepherd will notice and can ask if you want to start the ad-hoc wifi network. Then, on the N900, when you connect to the adhoc network, Shepherd can ask if you want to mount the USB devices from the tablet on your N900, and open the file manager for you.

attila77 2009-09-22 16:51
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Would you mind adding this to the Shepherd thread so I don't forget about it ? (surfing from the NIT right now) Thanks.

thecursedfly 2009-09-22 16:57
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qole (Post 331606)
This is where Shepherd will be useful! When you plug a USB device into your NIT, Shepherd will notice and can ask if you want to start the ad-hoc wifi network. Then, on the N900, when you connect to the adhoc network, Shepherd can ask if you want to mount the USB devices from the tablet on your N900, and open the file manager for you.
maybe for those wo have another NIT and care to carry them both around... ;/
anyway, it may be some kind of solution for somebody...

qole 2009-09-22 17:09
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecursedfly (Post 331621)
maybe for those wo have another NIT and care to carry them both around... ;/
anyway, it may be some kind of solution for somebody...
If you don't have an N8x0, you should go and get one. They're pretty cheap right now, and they do a lot of the stuff that the N900 can do. The N800 has two full size SD slots, and a mini USB connector (as opposed to the micro USB connector), not to mention it is probably cheaper on eBay, so it might be better to use as your WiFi USB Host.

dalonso 2009-09-22 18:35
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
For those of you needing OTG for reading pendrives and such, what about this:

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=184658

?

Matan 2009-09-22 18:41
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Physical problem with N900 SD slot.

What is the performance?

Will it work with > 32GB storage?

bocaJ 2009-09-22 18:45
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalonso (Post 331692)
For those of you needing OTG for reading pendrives and such, what about this:

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=184658

?
IIRC, that device was brought up previously, the problem being that the micro-SD portion of the adapter wouldn't fit in the recessed microSD port under the back-panel.

I like the constructive ideas though! One person already found a solution to using serial ports via bluetooth. It seems like the problems we have remaining are:

USB Mass storage devices
Other USB peripherals

dalonso 2009-09-22 19:15
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
@bocaJ: Doesn't the N900 have a microSD port in one of the sides? From the specifications it says there are two microSD expansion slots, one internal upto 32Gb and another one external upto 16Gb. From the 3D model in http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/360/ the external slot doesn't seem to have problems for this device to connect.

@Matan: From the producer specifications page it seems 32Gb is the limit, as it is the limit for the SDHC host. Anyway I imagine the N900 external microSD slot would limit this to 16Gb.

pycage 2009-09-22 19:27
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
I think there's only one MicroSD slot. The 32GB are built-in. And 16 GB is the maximum currently available for MicroSD, so it's advertised as a slot for 16 GB.

techdork 2009-09-22 19:56
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
I truly hope that Nokia will fix whatever the "several HW bugs" exist and plan for a model that will support USB OTG. This device without USB support to me is simply a high performance phone, not a "high performance mobile computer" as advertised.

The question still remains .. would it be at all possible to provide USB peripheral support with some sort of software and hardware hack? I've yet to see this question definitively answered.

andree 2009-09-22 20:23
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techdork (Post 331723)
I truly hope that Nokia will fix whatever the "several HW bugs" exist and plan for a model that will support USB OTG. This device without USB support to me is simply a high performance phone, not a "high performance mobile computer" as advertised.

The question still remains .. would it be at all possible to provide USB peripheral support with some sort of software and hardware hack? I've yet to see this question definitively answered.
if you read pg 88 of this:
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/lit...umber=sprufd4b

you'll find the TESTMODE register mentioned before.. unless nokia did something nasty to the hardware, this *could* make the usb host possible (maybe with some external usb bus powering workarounds)..

however if the hardware is crippled, don't hold your breath for the n900 to get 'fixed' during it's liftime by nokia.. you can only wait for n910 or similary... next year or later :)

Jack6428 2009-09-22 20:30
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
so you guys are telling me i can't plug in a keyboard via USB ?
Only via bluetooth?

andree 2009-09-22 20:41
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
nobody knows yet, except for nokia hardware devs - who probably won't tell anyway... :)

thecursedfly 2009-09-22 21:09
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
sorry for bringing up something allready posted but it's for visibility; isn't what's shown here a possible solution to the USB host problem?
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...503#post331503

(only possible problem would be that this system requires electricity, but it covers the case of HDs and DVD players, where you need electricity anyway..)

plus the mentioned "testmode", to see if it exists and works in some way.

probably we'll have a more definitive answer in a couple of months...

BruceL 2009-09-22 21:15
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andree (Post 331738)
if you read pg 88 of this:
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/lit...umber=sprufd4b

you'll find the TESTMODE register mentioned before..
This looks hopeful. Who knows how to set a USB register like this?

Code:
The test modes are entered by writing to the TestMode register (offset address 0x40F).
Code:
The Force Host test mode enables the user to instruct the core to operate in Host mode, regardless of
whether it is actually connected to any peripheral i.e. the state of the CID input and the LINESTATE and
HOSTDISCON signals are ignored. (While in this mode, the state of the HOSTDISCON signal can be read
from bit 7 of the DevCtl register.)
This mode, which is selected by setting bit 7 within the Testmode register, allows implementation of the
USB TEST_FORCE_ENABLE (7.1.20). It can also be used for debugging PHY problems in hardware.
While the FORCE_HOST bit remains set, the core will enter Host mode when the Session bit is set and
remain in Host mode until the Session bit is cleared even if a connected device is disconnected during the
session. The operating speed while in this mode is determined for the setting of the FORCE_HS and
FORCE_FS bits of the Testmode register in Section 1.1.4.11.

NvyUs 2009-09-22 21:17
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
i just want to say just b/c on nokia specs its says microSD supported upto 16GB it dont mean anything bigger wont work. i have older phones saying 4GB is limit but bigger ones work with it,
i think nokia just test and go by whats out at the time and whats being mass produced.

techdork 2009-09-22 21:35
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NvyUs (Post 331771)
i just want to say just b/c on nokia specs its says microSD supported upto 16GB it dont mean anything bigger wont work. i have older phones saying 4GB is limit but bigger ones work with it,
i think nokia just test and go by whats out at the time and whats being mass produced.
No offense, but I totally do not see what that has to do with the topic of this thread, other than an attempt at a thread hijack :s

gerbick 2009-09-22 21:38
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Based on the sheer amount of workarounds described in hardware, some would nullify a warranty on the spot.

I think that a software method to get files between phones is actually ideal. I already use one on the iPhone, so doing it this way would mean less of a hardware purchase requirement on my end.

qole 2009-09-22 22:02
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack6428 (Post 331740)
so you guys are telling me i can't plug in a keyboard via USB ?
Only via bluetooth?
No, you can't plug in a keyboard via bluetooth either. ;) :p

Mara 2009-09-22 22:06
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceL (Post 331770)
This looks hopeful. Who knows how to set a USB register like this?

Code:
The test modes are entered by writing to the TestMode register (offset address 0x40F).
Code:
The Force Host test mode enables the user to instruct the core to operate in Host mode, regardless of
whether it is actually connected to any peripheral i.e. the state of the CID input and the LINESTATE and
HOSTDISCON signals are ignored. (While in this mode, the state of the HOSTDISCON signal can be read
from bit 7 of the DevCtl register.)
This mode, which is selected by setting bit 7 within the Testmode register, allows implementation of the
USB TEST_FORCE_ENABLE (7.1.20). It can also be used for debugging PHY problems in hardware.
While the FORCE_HOST bit remains set, the core will enter Host mode when the Session bit is set and
remain in Host mode until the Session bit is cleared even if a connected device is disconnected during the
session. The operating speed while in this mode is determined for the setting of the FORCE_HS and
FORCE_FS bits of the Testmode register in Section 1.1.4.11.
Take a look at page 167 where they talk about emulating the VBUS signal... this may be more "clean" method of trying to get the controller into host mode?

Also, when I read the document it is apparent that the OMAP USB pins are not designed to be connected directly to the USB port. It needs some tranceiver chip between. I'm not sure if there are any other limitations on that tranceiver chip that prevent the host mode from working? (I don't think so, but you never know...)


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