putting wiki in shape
 

so, somebody new to maemo buys N900 and surfs to maemo.org.

finds out there is a wiki at wiki.maemo.org. what will he get?

http://wiki.maemo.org/Main_Page

what the f....?!?!?!?

who wants to come back to page like that?
why isn't this page on the list: http://wiki.maemo.org/new_users

why doesn't it show anywhere? i must remember the exact url to get there. what can i do to make it visible somewhere?

I have a strong opinion that all titles to category user (look quote) should have only noob-topics. advanced users surely know what to click if they want to see more pages....

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

here http://wiki.maemo.org/Main_Page I added a link to New Users as per your request under that list -_-

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Of course, as it's a wiki, feel free to edit it yourself.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

i have no tools to alter the listing quoted in the first post. i started the new users - page and i am glad that also others contributed to it.

and i'd like more people to contribute into more noob-friendly areas in wiki. dev - side is very good for what i've looked.

I'll be doing some time with wiki so there would be more stuff for noobs but i don't have so much spare time that i could do it by myself before week 44.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Ah, maybe Main_Page is locked. Well I guess without direct editing access, you could view the source, and copy and paste into a new page as a mock-up, and link to it here to see what people think of your proposal.

(Please note, I'm using "you" here to refer to any person reading this thread).

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

It's not locked. It just references some "templates" (think external) pages that have the content "frames". Of course please don't ruin the wiki for the rest of us. Keep changes tasteful, thank you.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Shouldn't be 'New users' at the top?

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

the wiki is a high priority of the council... it WILL be improved.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

It better be....

...for your sake.

:p

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

In the thread announcing the creation of that Maemo Basics page, i advocated putting a prominent link to it on the landing page (the Intro tab) of maemo.org. The current landing page is butt ugly, but besides that, it isn't suitably simple for a brand-new "everyday Joe" would-be Maemo enthusiast.

Unfortunately, i have no control over what goes on the landing page.

My recommendation was:
-Rename the landing page/tab to "Welcome"
-Put a prominent link on it for "Maemo Basics" wiki page and make it more of a welcome page. Explain what it currently does explain, then mention that a read-through of the rest of the side-menu articles is a good way to get up to speed and link to the next one at the bottom of the page. Fix the graphic and layout to be less fugly
-Give the same "breadcrumb" linking treatment to the rest of the tutorial/intro pages
-add another page at the end of "Maemo Basics" called "Getting Involved" that walks people through the ecology and structure of maemo.org. Basically, make this an alternative walk-through that is intended for the most basic, mainstream users. Focus more on the non-developer aspects of maemo.org and explain things in ways that won't make their eyes glaze over, or cause them to run away screaming and never come back

The current landing page "Intro", as well as the links on the side that are meant to be a walk-through of sorts, are targetted more at experienced computer nerds/developers. Even so, it's not intuitive that you should step through the list of entries on the sidebar to get up to speed.

In short, the first-impression maemo.org experience is very lacking right now. Considering how slick the actual user experience on the device is, we probably should polish our first impressions here. ;)

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Hi,

I agree on the fact that some polishing has to be done. But in general I think the wiki is not the first page you go to as a new user without any information about maemo and that it should just provide deeper information about certain topics regarding community, users and developer. Perhaps a category like newbie might be useful as with the new device, new types of user come into place. I guess the normal average user might think more about development, by reading information about "how to become root".

In general I am afraid, that we just duplicate content with those pages. IMHO that is one of the problems of the wiki we have to solve. The Maemo Basic page is on the one hand quite ok, but I see there information which can be found in so many places (Forum Nokia, maemo.nokia.com, about page in the wiki, main page of maemo.org, etc.). I think that it would be better to choose one of this links (like maemo.nokia.com) and put it on the main page as it provides the information about maemo itself and the device in a pretty good way. The information in the wiki is really important and a good source, but IMHO just when you go one step further, than the information, which is for example mentioned in maemo.nokia.com. And I don't think that this is a bad thing.

So my suggestion would be to be aware of not duplicating too much information, which makes updates harder, and which might lead at the end into wrong information. IMHO it would be nicer to bundle that in the places, which already exist, link them and try to concentrate in the wiki on concrete information, which might be interesting for different target groups like it is now and perhaps add a newbie category. This should then for example not explain that there is an application, but more about specific problems/solutions.

Cheers Daniel

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Is it possible to put banners at the top of pages (e.g. by putting pages in "special" categories) to say whether the content of the page is aimed at developers, or advanced users, with a gentle warning? Similarly, is it possible to put in a banner to say which device or OS the content is written for?

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

pelago that is an OUTSTANDING idea! Some pages would be multipurpose so they could be flagged with a small, hyperlinked banner for each relevant target. The links would go to a home page for the target.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

The information available on the Maemo Basics page isn't really available in distilled format anywhere that i've seen, which is why i put it there.

There will be people buying a N900 (or N910 etc) that will not be developing but will want to participate in maemo. That have no idea what linux really is, or what maemo is about, or understand the way it's put together, but will want to know more. If we want that demographic here (do we?) then we need to streamilne a maemo walk-through for them that gives them the informational tools they need to understand how their device works and how they can profitably participate on maemo.org.

I think the best way to deal with new arrivals to maemo.org is to present an attractive welcome page that identifies itself (home of the maemo community) and provides links to follow to alternative maemo walk-throughs depending on one's purpose and interest. That's more or less what i tried to describe above.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I would just like to add that I would like this site redesigned for better viewing on microb. It doesn't load correctly for me - one would think designing for 800x480 would be a priority given the resolution of the tablets.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I find it humorous that you are all talking about editing the wiki, instead of just doing it.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

It's what always seems to happen. ;)

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I don't.

You're making the common but serious error of seeing no value in discussion... but it's precisely talk that CAN prevent mistakes.

People are quick to criticize meetings and discussions as wastes of time, but the real waste is time spent fixing major screwups that result when there has been no meaningful discussion... been there, dealt with that.

I find that spending more time planning, interviewing and assessing means less time on the overall project. Lot of value there.

That said, talk is surely wasteful if there is no facilitator to translate it into action. But don't fall into the trap of thinking all talk is cheap.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

This isn't DO.maemo.org !!!

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

The biggest easy change is to fix the prominent Wiki link on the front page of InternetTabletTalk.com, remember that? It links to an older Wiki that is never updated; I think that the last update was made by ME when I put a link to the new Wiki in it. Having that obsolete Wiki so prominently available is dumb, if it should be kept, it should be moved elsewhere.

And why am I not making the edit? InternetTabletTalk was trashed against my wishes, so you Brave New Worlders can take responsibility for cleaning up the mess.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I figure we do the wiki the way all wikis are done. You make changes, and other people either leave the changes if they like them, or change them if they don't. And you can have little discussions about specific, disputed pages on the wiki talk pages of the disputed pages.

I would much rather have people post here in talk saying, "I've added this page," or "I've edited this page" so that others can go and look at the changes, rather than posting, "someone should really do something about that page!"

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Had we recognized you as king, surely we would have resisted the invasion.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

While I do agree 100%, I also think we should 'marshall our forces' and identify an overall strategy... precisely what I see Dave Neary doing. Note I have volunteered and promise to do more than talk.

EDIT: I just spent significant time navigating links through the wiki.

Hoo boy.

I daresay it's in the shape it's in BECAUSE so much is done on the fly without followup. In theory the wiki-standard continuous improvement by visitors sounds reasonable but in practice I suspect many are intimidated by what they encounter in ours. I know I am.

I'm betting even wikipedia started with a business plan and process map. It's much, much easier to update something that has started that way. Start with chaos, you just get more.

It needs to be fixed, though, and for now I'll start with the things I can clearly identify. But some pages are going to have to surely be cleaned up by those involved in their creation.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Proofreading. (Concept contains several aspects such as grammar, wikifying, verifying sources, and more; are these outlined somewhere?)

Not all Wikipedia contributors know all the rules. There are so many rules. What happens is that regulars become assume a moderator or maintainer role rather than contributor role. Much, like a manager, or what Torvalds does nowadays.

If those who contribute proofread, and others proofread their contributions, and the contributors check if they're proofread and learn from any edits, we get some kind of ball rolling.

One can proofread by just checking Recent Changes and read through them, check Random Page, or just browse.

You're right with assessment that if too many contribute chaotic it may become a mess.

However:

1) It isn't necessary one writes a complete article perfect before adding it to the wiki. It is optionable, and such procedure is not what a wiki was made for; its more akin to blogging.
2) Only if contributions are not proofread then it becomes a mess. (Complete nonsense can be removed right away.)
3) In a wiki the primary rule is IMO to not be afraid. Just. Contribute. Don't be afraid for criticism, see it as positive. And, instead of edit wars, or if someone made huge contribution you have much criticism on: communicate first.
4) If oyu do want quality assurance to make more newbie friendly then point #1 is less valid. However there is no public feedback on what has been proofread like in CVS acked-by flag. Add to that, there are several aspects to proofread and every proofreader has their own quality!!
5) Resumee, keep in mind not everyone has English as their primary language, or has experience with wiki software and/or principle, or is a hard core techie keeping a PDP-11 as decoration in stairway. Different contributors and proofreaders have different qualities.

What I don't like about Maemo wiki is that there isn't some kind of versioning/snapshots in the sense of current hardware/software. At the moment new hardware/software comes either articles are out of date, half of wiki has to start over, old data must be removed, or addendums must be made. This happened before and I don't see why it won't happen again? Or am I wrong? This is difficult to manage and makes me feel bad about wiki :(

[EDIT]We can make a list of articles which have to be proofread and state why they must be proofread. Authors/contributors can do this themselves too (e.g. say someone is aware their English isn't to write home about). Wikipedia does that too (NPOV, citation needed, blahblah). We could make a list of these requirements. We could also add them on the very page so a reader is aware.[/list]

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

please look through category basics:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Basics

I've done a little and will do more later but it would be nice that other people would create pages to that category too if they have an idea what noobs need. Or what would be sensible to add for newcomers.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Actually, this subdomain is a FABULOUS idea -- and can hold info to the entire philosophy of open source and Maemo and how we can all get involved. I really, really, like this. I'm busy today, but if someone can start a new thread about the subdomain, I'd love to see some discussion around it.

Thanks!
Tim

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I did what i could without input from the community or more access rights, and requested here what i could not.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

hey all this is about syncing back from wiki to elsewhere and i dont know who manages the target data its aobot http://maemo.org/development/sdks/ma..._installation/ still refers to sdk beta sh scripts, and is not in sync with http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/...K_Installation this page needs some love too http://maemo.org/development/sdks/

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

It looks like most of the coordination for "getting it done" is happening in the mailing lists. :(

Relaunching the Wiki Action Group

Wiki Action Group: first task

There's more, take a look at the Community archives.

Sounds like the maemowiki action group has awoken from its slumber again.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Now I really wish I had been more careful in the naming when I created it. <_<

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

When on wiki.maemo.org and I use search it default not searches the wiki this is both illogic as well as inconvenient.

[EDIT]It does work, but when I searched for something I was sure was there ("MMS" was my query) while it returned no entries. On bottom, its written it searched through (main) and then further options I can select to search are provided including wiki.maemo.org :confused:. Its unclear what these flags exactly do.[/EDIT]

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

i can take full responsibility for

http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Basics

there's only one but:
i need ideas (new pages, improvement, ...)

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

How do I decide if something belongs to Basics or Users? May they overlap?

Because http://wiki.maemo.org does not show any of Basics.

My recent effort ('individual sprint') was to include Categories on bottom of wiki entries.

This also helped me learn more about current state of wiki.

One thing became apparent to me: we do not wikify enough while that is precisely one of the powerful features of wiki.

It confuses me that we have Talk:Article and that we also have Talk as in 'talk.maemo.org'. Am I only one for who this is sometimes confusing?

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

IMO some articles could belong to both.

basics = "Basics -section is for beginners. All wiki articles that are readable without any knowledge about *nix whatsoever."

so it is there only for collecting all articles suitable for noobs. i dont see any troubles overlapping with users - category.

i have no idea how to add the basics category to main wiki page. tried once and pretty much f*ckd everything up :D i can try again soon though and see if another kind of approach works.

e: finally i got it, now look at wiki.maemo.org ! :D

and please comment if you have something in mind. a small comment to me can make big difference.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Yes OK point taken but should be minimized IMO. I'll have look in Category:Users

Hmm well took me some effort to understand. Just edit http://wiki.maemo.org/Template:Basics and it will be synced with Main_Page

I, FWIW, want Main_Page user friendly for new users of N900/Fremantle and I'll weed through Category:Users to see if needs adjustment to Category:Basics and if can be included on Main_Page

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Words of 1-3 characters are not indexed. It's a problem if you are searching for USB, ssh, "etc"...

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

@ Ossipena, yes :) however you didn't remove a similar entry from Template:Users (fixed now).

Like I said though, where to draw the line? Is installing an application from Extras 'Basics' or 'Users'?

Like I said, there is overlapping. The article Downloading apps overlaps with Extras article. I find Extras entry easier. But Downloading apps is 'Basics', and Extras is 'Users'. Extras is also linked to while Downloading apps is an orphan.

I think Basics and Users should merge, and when explaining *NIX stuff can copy/paste Wikipedia or link to Wikipedia. Eventually, the Category:Users is in such way covering both simple as well as advanced use-cases. In the latter case, it provides wikified references (which is currently not used enough!).

Can this be fixed so words of 3 characters with capital are indexed? Or words of 3 character in general? So USB and SSH are indexed? This makes easier to manage. How else do you propose I work around it from practical point of view (situation as-is)?

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

Be my guest: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3363

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I suggest a Category "Beginners" (Tutorials, everything that is missing from the manual, important apps/use-cases) and one "Power Users" (Advanced applications, "Hacks").
Also, "Application Developers" (Dev environments, languages, IDE, debug, package, upload to extras) and "Platform Developers" (components, upstream, extensions, plug-ins, MER)
This would allow to sort out most pages to one of these 4 reader categories, which should cover most of our public.

Re: putting wiki in shape
 

I agree. this would help getting rid of basics - users -confusing separation.

I'll add those two categories and after that we could see if old basics - users -categories could be removed entirely. or make those two new as a subcategory of users.