Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Maybe you're ignoring the fact that karma isn't comprised solely of your involvement in talk.maemo.org. Even just responding to bugs in Bugzilla for your project generates you karma.

I think that before you guys go on a witchhunt, you should have all the details first. Quim has stated time and time again that he's here to make sure "everybody wins".

200 karma is an extremely LOW bar to set for these discounts. Hell, look at Joshua. Dude's been here all of two or three months and already has more than half the amount of karma needed to get a discount.

If a developer of a popular application hasn't gotten enough karma then maybe he should try being a part of the community... coming here and posting about new releases, answering questions and so on. It's not like he/she even has to do it all that often. Remember, look at the title of this thread. These discounts are rewarding community engagement, not just developers.

Regardless, no matter what system we have, someone's going to feel like they fell through the cracks. I wish it didn't have to happen at all.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

No the percentages isn't hugely important; but I was trying to say at least 500 devices are out and I would venture approx half of them should go to developers, since the platform will live or die in great part based on the developers. I understand that the 300 were lent to attendees (and no easy way to determine categories) -- and that was really a swesome move on Nokia part.

Actually I read every post in this thread before posting (If I got Karma for reading threads/newgroup posts I would probably have as much Karma as Quim <G>) -- My only issue I was trying to raise was going based on Karma at this point is faulty. And Quim seemed to say the same thing in the other "dev-device" thead that people didn't need to worry about their Karma; however a week or so later the device program comes out totally based on Karma. (Bad, Bad, Bad!)

You guys might be trying to get a handle on it. But if nobody says anything you won't know. ;-D

Nathan.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I just want to say thanks for the email, and I'm waiting for official word of price for the US.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Find yourself here.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Only helps if you have bugs in your product. ;-)

But yes, as I stated over 80% comes from talk. The only way I could get that number was to look at my numbers. ;-)


Not trying to start a which hunt, just making sure the issue is addressed. Just trying to make sure we don't drive off any developers because of hurt feelings. I would be pretty annoyed had I had a top 30 app and I wasn't invited because I didn't post much on the forums.... That might be enough to drive me to Android or Palm. We can't afford to loose users.

Yes, but he hasn't posted anything contrary to karma on this and based on what I perceived him saying in the other dev-device thread (which you are referring too) he said karma wasn't a major factor; except in all reality this device program so far the only factor he has outlined is Karma.

Makes my point exactly. Posting has too much affect on karma. It weights the table towards people who frequent and POST a lot in the forums. (Yes I know their is a brainstorm in progress to try and fix it for the future -- but that doesn't take care of the present)


I disagree. As my example with Anderson -- I see him occasionally on the newsgroups, bug tracker and pymaemo mailing list. He only has 195 karma. But based on Karma he would have been excluded. Now that is a problem!

Oh, I understand your point. But each iteration we can get better; and I just wanted to make sure that we take in account the people who fell in the cracks. We do NOT want to drive _any_ of them away.

Nathan

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

How the heck do I do that?! The list doesn't even sort by username! So I have to read through every page?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

If you're eligible for the discount you can consider to donate money to your favourite Maemo community member. Perhaps specifically one who wasn't eligible for the device program, or one you wanted to thank before but didn't. Some kind of donation program for specific Maemo community members may work too.

In my case there is at least one member I'd like to donate money to as thank you for contributions, and this seems a good moment to do so, especially if helps that person getting a N900.

We can keep these donations private so the intention is pure and kept personal instead of public with shame & fame both have their advantage as well as disadvantage.

The amount donated is personal preference, how many people donate to as well, but given you're saving about 50% of the original price theres some room. Unless you're already flatbroke, ofcourse.

Just an idea to give individuals the power to bring a little bit of justice where they feel its required, and entirely voluntary ofcourse.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I like that suggestion

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

The easiest method to get your karma rating it to goto:
http://maemo.org/profile/view/mountainx/

Assuming mountainx is your "maemo.org" login name. (which it apparently is not -- I just tried). Whatever your username is on the main maemo.org site is what you want to put into the "username" spot.

Nathan.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Log in if you have an account, if not, register. Then click your username to get to your profile page ( http://maemo.org/profile/view/<username>/ ) . You'll see a big sign with your karma on it.

EDIT: Damn, I'm slow...

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

There are separate logins for the maemo.org site and the talk.maemo.org site....which is annoying.

I would like to have one login for both - is that possible?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

for everyone who thanks talk is the only way to get karma.

http://maemo.org/profile/view/timeless/

Timeless is 12th highest karma and not a 1 talk post or thanks.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Easiest way is got to maemo.org, login and click your name in top right corner it takes you to your profile with karma on it.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Even with my mind-boggling number of posts, I agree.

I created a Brainstorm proposal to discuss awarding Karma based on Thanks (a more useful metric IMO) but so far NO engagement on it... :(

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...hanks_in_talk/

Quim is also looking for developer love:

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...heir_software/

Attilla77 is also proposing Brainstorm activity as Karma source:

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor..._karma_source/

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Yes, you can get karma from other places. If I'm not saying you couldn't it just appears a ton of karma is from talk or blog posts. Not a lot if giving for just plain developers. I'm not saying those aren't important -- in fact they are. I'm just trying to make sure that the developers who make the software that we all use aren't forgotten because they are not always "social" creatures. ;-D

Nathan

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I think this is a GREAT direction to be going. Whoever started the brainstorm idea was a genius (Quim was that you?) -- I love that we can start getting these minor issues resolved in a constructive manor. But the only point I keep trying to make is that for this time through; since we don't have everything in place (and probably won't) -- we need to make sure we do NOT alienate any of our developers, especially developers of products that are highly rated/used just because they might be anti-social. ;-D

Nathan.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

To link your talk.maemo.org account and your maemo.org profile (so you can get karma based off your posts) see here. (And posts here are square-rooted for karma, so it'll take a lot of posts to get 200 points on unthanked posts. Thanked posts are multiplied by 8 so, much easier).

As has been said, some people will always feel they've fallen through the cracks - but do you think it's your job to moan about them on a public forum by purely looking at the karma list?

I would find it boggling if the PyMaemo folks didn't have access to a large number of N900s already. Indeed, Anderson's posts on maemo-developers to address the optification of Python suggest he already has.

The majority of this thread is just so... distasteful.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Well, while some of us Americans are waiting for qgil's response, I'll speculate. Using a percentage ratio I get this:

Nokia USA device discount

= $649 * ( €300 / €499 )

= $390 [60% of retail]

That's %20 more than my 100%-no-brainer-can't-live-without upper bound of $325 [50% of retail].

Let's just make it an even $350 and call it a day.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I think that's overestimated. Look at the first page of profiles, sorted by karma:
http://maemo.org/profile/list/

Some of those folks talk (like me :o) but they mostly earned their karma by "harder" means.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

...whereas I've been on ITt since the very beginning - almost four years now - and am still #17
poster overall, despite slowing down greatly in recent times... but still just barely made it above the bar,
with 203 (!) karma... go figure :-)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

i'd be stoked to have a 100$ off the amazon price, congrats to those who've got it and i hope you make something with it :)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

fpp, your Thanks ratio just needed help... I did my part. :D

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Exactly, posting in Bugzilla is a much more productive way to accrue Karma than posting in t.m.o... in fact I don't think t.m.o post count adds much value to Karma but the number of thanks/thanked posts does help go towards your Karma, which is as it should be.

Posting in Bugzilla is a direct and visible means of trying to improve the product and move it forward in a constructive manner which is why it is a much quicker route to high Karma. The problem is that a large percentage of those who post in t.m.o have never posted in Bugzilla - if you really want to engage with Nokia and help the platform (as opposed to just chatting with each other) then get involved in Bugzilla! :)

And becoming involved in the community is not just about getting a cheap device... if you qualify for a device discount then consider that a nice bonus, and if not then perhaps you're simply not visible enough in those parts of the "community" outside of t.m.o, or despite creating a popular app you haven't got involved to help others or improve the platform. Whatever it may be, you should be involved in the community because you want to be involved, not because you can save a few bucks/quid/euro on the next device.

PS. Cheers Quim and the team - you have a thankless job! :)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Yours doesn't, but thanks all the same :-)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

The problem is some devs don't want any real connection to the maemo.org community in the way using forums, mailing lists, garage, wiki, blog, bugzilla, and other maemo.org services. Those people might make great software that helps the community but they are not active in the community in the sence of maemo.org services. Now they might use irc but there isn't any way to track that use. Also there is no way to do a program without some kind of tracking number. and Karma takes into consideration just about everything. Its bad some people wont get in when they do a lot.

If you feel like some people have been left out and you have an idea on how to include those people who don't use maemo.org services make post proposing the method on picking those people get people talking about it and maybe it will be approved.

I'll even post an example of what i mean. Running to make post.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Ah, looking at that list I understand better now. I just remembered I actually have two maemo.org IDs, due to a mixup from the days when ITt and maemo.org were less not separate than today. Before being fpp on both sides I was also fredp on maemo, and *that* one has 226k.

So it's really 429k for the *person*... but I'm not sure the maemo team knew to add those up... or even which one was evaluated... so either way it was a close shave :-)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

As I stated (I think in the first post) I made -- I didn't think _I_ fell through the cracks. I don't think I would qualify either pure karma (I don't post enough) or because of a high ranking application (I only have a vhd for developers, not end users). Nothing of what I have done has been something a end user would see yet and product any real amount of Karma. So in of that, I would not be a target of the dev program (unless someone at Nokia really liked the Windows vhd development work, or the recent fremantle Rapier porting) this time around. This is NOT about me; this is about other developers who have made visible contributions that may have fallen through the cracks. This is about other developers who might not even visit talk (ie. timeless doesn't apparently <G>) and may not say anything and then find out later that they didn't qualify and might get hurt feeling. In otherwords someone at Nokia should go through the top 50-100 apps and make sure they are on the list (and/or got a unit at the summit).


Sheesh, Andrew didn't I say in that same post -- I'm pretty sure they already have them. I've seen the same posts I'm subscribed to the m-d list also. I'm also pretty sure INdt is a nokia company -- they would be royally screwed if they weren't working together. ;-)

What I was saying is that by using pure Karma, they did exclude Anderson. Let me repeat it again; by using PURE KARMA as Quim outlined in the first post; they DID EXCLUDE ANDERSON. Clear? Fortunately he got it because of other reasons, and I suspect his team had them long before we even knew what they looked like. ;-)


LOL, I'm not even sure how to respond to this. My only point I've been trying to make sure is to check the cracks. We do NOT want to loose any developers! Nokia is fighting Apple, Rim, Android, we can't afford to disenfranchise the developers we have. The press is pro-apple, pro-android and non-existent on Maemo. So keeping what we have is paramount for success. Quim has done a great job balancing things and getting things for us. I just want to make sure they don't overlook one last area of Developer goodwill.

Nathan.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

For us that have karma less that 200: we can use this: http://europe.nokia.com/microsites/discount-twitter . No big deal but always something :)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I really hope you're joking... and belive me: it's not something you can say for joke! So please go elsewhere if you want to speak in that way. Thanks!

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

You need to publish your Python web framework in extras; you need to blog about it on planet; you should find a way of packaging your web apps (weblets? ;-)) as Debian packages (with a Depends on the framework) and publish those in Extras.

I'm afraid to say - if anything - the talk factor's almost seems too high. Although increasing the amount of karma a developer gets from downloads.maemo.org seems like a good starting point for improving the balance. But it seems very odd: on one hand, some people claim it's too focused on developers; but then we also say that not enough developers are getting rewarded.

If an app developer feels hard done by, please email Quim and CC the council.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

My Proposal I promised.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...827#post348827

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

The discounted devices are obviously an incentive for developers to continue developing, but also something of a reward for credible community involvement from non-developers... for someone to develop an application only to then refrain from all and any involvement with the community suggests they're not entirely deserving of a discounted device, or even seeking to obtain one.

The guys at Nokia/Maemo can't track everyones involvement within the community, and to be honest I think they've done a good job so far of trying to capture as many metrics as they have. However from reading this thread I get the impression that some people think involvement here, at t.m.o, is the be-all and end-all of community involvement and is sufficient to obtain the latest device with a pretty decent discount. Sadly they're mistaken.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I agree with you guys I'm just trying to show people the correct way to complain if they want to get something done.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

First, thanks to Nokia for the invite. I think it's great that they've invited regular contributors (not just developers, who are very important, but also to, essentially, people who are likely to be "evangelists", which I do try to be when it comes to Maemo (really, look at some of my engadget, umpcportal, and pocketables posts)).

However... for _me_ this may not turn out to be the best deal. There's a _rumor_ that T-mobile is going to be starting a "spread your payments out over 20 months" program ... and finances around here make "$30/mo" much more attractive than "$400 right now". Yeah, I know, I pay more in the long run. But we just had pay cuts where I work, and I'm spending a big chunk of cash right now to move my girlfriend here from TX. Coming up with $440 by January 1st isn't likely.

That said ... if I know I wont be able to take advantage of the deal ... is there some way I can pass my discount on to someone else? Either:

• directly pass it to someone, or
• give it back and nominate who will get it, or
• just give it back, but with the knowledge that someone else will get it

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

My suggestion Someone should run through the top 50-100 apps; make a list and then make sure they are on the invite list or got a device at the summit. I'm _willing_ to put my money where my moust is and to make this list if Nokia will use it. (I know about the downloads page; is their any other places to get stats on popularity?) But I'm not going to bother working on a list if all it will be busy work.... I have enough busy work making creating deb pkg configs for the fremantle port of Rapier.

Nathan

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Right. And this is why there've been a variety of programmes! A large number of user-facing developers got prototypes in order that Extras could be seeded for the launch. The summit attendees. And there are other programmes that neither you nor I are aware of.

I'd guess this is one of the final ways (apart from hoovering those up who should've attended the summit but didn't). This is to fill in the cracks, not the other way around!

As I say above, if a developer feels hard done by, email Quim & CC the council explaining their position. Extrapolation, wailing and gnashing of teeth on tmo by people other than those developers isn't helpful. At best, it's misplaced altruism. At worst, it's FUD; as people will think that there are developers who feel left out and are going to storm off from Maemo development.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Well, I managed to create a valid account at forum.nokia.org and add my store profile.

It insisted on a Salutation, but limited the choices to Mr, Ms, or Mrs. They're Miss-ing a few, but I won't go further.

Thanks Quim and Nokia. I may wait and see the US street price though, but I really would like to get my hands on one and run the hardware.

(You have the SDK with Xephyr, but not a brick with dual cameras, gps, bluetooth, etc. not to mention illumination and temperature sensors, pressure, dimming, or an easy way to add them to the PC emulation).

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Now I know what that thread about this site not being user friendly meant ;)

Even I do not have any idea how to find my way around maemo.org. That's really weird. :confused:

If I can't even find my way around the site (or collection of sites), I guess I have no business asking what my karma is... but still, I'd like to know.

Do I need 3 accounts? talk, garage and maemo.org?
I just created an account on garage. Don't think I had it before. However, that account will not allow me to log in to http://maemo.org. It says invalid username or password. The password is correct and the username is lowercase. So I definitely consider this to be un-user-friendly.

EDIT: make that 4 accounts because I just had to create one at forum.nokia.com.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Only problem I see is that some people don't use Downloads, and some people don't even use maemo.org repos so some people might still be missed.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I'd say that if you've made any kind of popular app and haven't found thousands of bugs to report you're a pretty lucky guy.... (or have low self-esteem! that happens, too).


IMHO, I have to agree with those who say the barrier to entry is surprisingly low enough. So low that with only my first "discovery" I made in this community (gvm sd cards) I got nearly a third of the required karma for the device.... :p