Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

It doesn't have to be GTK+ or Qt to be open. (That's especially true of Qt, since it hasn't always been so open as it is now. Then again, I'm obviously biased, as you can tell from my alias!)

The only thing Android "locks you into" is an application platform that happens to be different from GTK+ or Qt. But then again, so does Maemo, doesn't it? Sure, most of the framework is standard Linux libraries, but there's also a thin, Maemo-specific layer built on top of those libraries.

You can argue that Android's layer (on top of the standard Java libraries) is perhaps a bit thicker than Maemo's, but you can't argue that it's any less open. And when it comes to mobile development, it's good that those abstraction layers are there, because mobile hardware is complicated. Developing for them is different than developing for desktop applications, so it's nice for developers to not have to worry about that, or at least to deal as little as possible with the details of things like kinetic scrolling, finger-friendly controls, multitouch, cellular handoffs, etc.

Sure, there are Google-provided applications built on the Android platform that are not free, but Nokia provides the same kinds of apps on the Maemo platform, for probably the same reasons. And they don't affect the openness of either platform.

But I'll reiterate my main point: it doesn't matter which of Maemo and Android is better. It matters that they're both open. The source code is free. The application frameworks are built on free and open technologies. And application developers are free to build whatever cool inventions they can conjure - they don't have to deal with the tyranny of the iPhone App Store.

And those are wins for everyone.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

But governance does, can you address that? :)

Unfortunately they aren't, in practice it just means more fragmentation in mobile Linux, which is a sector that's suffered from that for far too long. Android does not provide a way forward beyond being a Google-oriented platform. Maemo does.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Wait - creating a common platform that runs on multiple sets of hardware creates fragmentation? Or are you just refering to its existence as yet another Linux-based mobile platform (like maemo)?

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Maemo is mature in that respect, I will grant you that. But even Java went without governance for three years before the Java Community Process was formalized.

In many ways, the close guidance of a organized, funded company can make it easier for an infant software development platform to grow into something viable. Sun fostered Java; Nokia fostered Maemo; now Google is fostering Android.

And given the remarkable amount of progress that has been made on Android as an operating system and as a platform, after just a year of public availability, it looks like the process is working, just as it worked for Java and Maemo. In time, I have no doubt that Android will grow to a size that demands governance, just as Java and Maemo have.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

In time but for now N900 rules :D

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I think the main difference is what I'd call 'platform maturity'. I know it's not the best term to describe it, so feel free to correct me on this..

Each of the platform has their basic core design:

- iphone wants to be a simplified OS with high focus on gloss and UI, primarily as a content delivery mechanism.
- maemo is a refactoring of 'mobile computing'. boundless and unlimited in its potential, but it's still just a scaffolding compared to when it'll be fully blossomed.
- android... well I have the G1, but I don't use it enough to get the gist of it ;P Probably it's designed to be a middle-of-the-road kind of mobile OS: jack of all trades, master of none.

So, with each different 'endgames', they're all now going iterations to reach each of their own 'perfection'. The iPhone has been in the market for 2+ years and with 3 iterations to correct the glaring quirks. Not YOUR quirks against it, but the quirks against THEIR idealized design. The Maemo is fresh out of the gates, so there'll be PLENTY of rough edges compared to the more established platforms.

Also, b*tch*ng against iPhone's closed design is similar to b*tch*ng about the Tivo not able to do common linux tasks. They're just closed end products that make use of open parts as their building blocks.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I completely agree with this. I was just thinking this the other day. Making the OS free to any device manufacturer was the stroke of genius. It even allows people to get into the phone business who might not have otherwise (Dell, Acer), because they don't have to develop an OS. I think Google is beating Windows at it's own game, in the phone world, in terms of figuring out how to become the default platform and that the hardware doesn't matter. Apple, though they've had a run of success, will end up marginalized again, for the same reason; it's need to tightly control the hardware and software combination.

To me Nokia is the wild card in all this. Meamo is a great platform. It's a step beyond Android, iPhone, and everything else, precisely because it is more of a true desktop experience. In the long run this could trump even Google, because of it's desire for tighter control. But Nokia has been so ineffective at pulling it's N series devices out of the high end niche, I don't know if they'll pull it off, even if they have the conceptually more radical and innovative design.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

There's more to a system being open than simple visibility of the source code. The Android platform is designed to lock down the devices it runs on and prevent the user exercising their freedom to control their own device. The mere existence of the ADP1 as distinct from the G1 tells you how open Android is. There is no developer edition of Maemo because they're all open to development, or to anything else the user wants.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I think this is exactly right. It's where the potential of Maemo lies. Someday, when most people do expect their mobile device to be more like their computer, they will want to be able to do whatever they want with it. Even people who are not *nix-heads and don't think about what "smartphone" or "mobile computer" means will benefit from the freedom of choices this will allow them.

On the other hand, it's going to be hard to compete with Google letting any device manufacturer who wants to use Android for free. As I said above, we all know this is basically how Windows won the OS war (minus the licensing fee). Android doesn't even have to be better than the competition. As long as it's perceived as more or less equal in capability to the iPhone, WinMo, Maemo, it can dominate just by spreading like a virus accross most device manufacturer's hardware.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

And that's why I think Android will win in the long run. But I'm hoping by then they would have sorted out the problems that have me preferring Maemo over Android. =P

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Everyone should be nicer when the N900's show up. I hope.....

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

As far as Android, the key is actual app execution. Unless part of the framework (MP4 codec is example) the apps run through the byte code layer and this is resource intense. A fair analogy is Maemo equals Linux, but Android equals Linux with the apps running in Java.

Premise of both OS's is similar, but the actual execution could not be more different in regards to efficiency and available access to hardware resources.

Just try to make a video codec for Android and see how well it runs. Ask Coreplayer team about that.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I agree, and they made a mistake trying to take Symbian down a tier with the N78's and N81's. Did alot to tarnish the Nseries brand, which was originally a premium brand. Cseries and Xseries will help that, hopefully, and maybe Maemo will hold more of the Nseries lineup in the future, or even have its own brand. Symbian^4 needs to hurry and get here, or they'll have some competitors right over its shoulder. I think they'll get there, but barely. Pretty risky moves by Nokia, but they think they can remain in the top two regardless, and I do too.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

As I've read through the thread, the following thought occurs to me (and I'm sure I'll be harshly corrected, but anyway).

Isn't Maemo, from the typical end-user perspective becoming more "closed"? (not from a developer, or even advanced user, but an end user).

For example: In Diablo, I can download a deb file, click on it from the stock filemanager, and it will install for me. In Fremantle, this is no longer the case. I have to drop into CLI to install a deb. Certainly, for devs and advanced users this is fine. However, it is not something the average end user would attempt. This was done to "protect" the end user from installing potentially harmful (beta, buggy, whatever) software easily. This limits the available software to the end user, in effect "closing" off part of the openness.

(I do agree that this is a good thing for the platform, but it does "close" it a little bit).

What would it be considered if in Maemo 7, a user would have to go to CLI to install a non-approved repository? (this logically following from protecting the end user from installing "bad" software that could make the experience less than optimal)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Fair view. My lame theory is that Nokia is setting up a secure network for closed app markets for carriers that may sell the phone. Tmo is a good example. This device has their 3G and Tmo is a big fan now of captive audience markets like Android. That being said, at least you can install an apk file straight to your device with Android (that is about all it has over Maemo 5).

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

What are end users doing downloading random .debs off the internet? I don't know any end users who would choose to do that unless out of necessity and that necessity has decreased to almost zero over the past year or so. Random .debs are no longer the default for distributing software, sticking your stuff in Extras where it belongs is. This is really a red herring.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

And how many manufacturers are building devices that run on Maemo? Maemo is awesome, but Nokia is the only manufacturer willing to gamble with it (and I respect them a great deal for that), and even then they're only gambling with one device at a time.

Tighter control (than Maemo, not than anything else) is precisely why Android is being leveraged in dozens of devices by half a dozen manufacturers and several carriers. Carriers especially have enjoyed extremely tight control over the devices that run on their networks.

The whole point of Android is to break down that system, but it can't happen overnight. So Android retains some amount of lockdown control (for now), but still, it's already making progress: when Verizon announced that VOIP software would be allowed to run on the Droid, AT&T announced the very next day that it would allow VOIP apps to run over 3g on the iPhone. One step closer to freer devices for everyone, not just Android users.

Coincidence? Google is using Android (in a Trojan horse style) to change the relationship between carriers, developers, and users - to take power away from the carriers, and to give that power back to developers and users. And they're doing it at a huge cost to themselves with just a weak, indirect, and highly-latent incentive: to get more mobile phones onto the internet.

Note: I have no connection with the Android team, so I don't speak for them or for Google, but these are the conclusions I've drawn from their public talks and from common sense.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Maemo is not the long-term answer, Android is not the long-term answer (Java? No X? No real toolkits? Not happening) Mer is.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Mer has potential, for sure, perhaps more even than it has ambition. Will manufacturers or carriers latch on to that potential? Will end users? I hope so, but until Mer becomes a reality, Maemo and Android are the best alternatives, in my humble opinion.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

You don't know any windows end users? They'll install anything :) they find on the web.

As a former PalmTX end user, I could and did download software from a variety of sources. I know plenty of Widows end users who will install just about anything they find on the net.

If we're talking about end users that only install what is available by default on the phone, then iphone, android, Maemo are all about the same to the end user. They have an app store/default extras repository to install "approved" apps from.

If we're talking about an end user that might actually hit google and search for an app:
Iphone: can't install w/o jailbreak
Android: Can install file found
Diable: Can install file found by clicking
Fremantle: Need CLI to install

Fremantle has added an extra hurdle to the end user to install random files, ie become more "closed".

For, the record, there are plenty of deb's that can be found on the net and installed on Diablo. Many right here in our own forums. I have several pieces of software that I installed from debs not found in Extras or other repositories. Perhaps not the best idea, but it was just a click or two away to do it. Even if you don't personally install anything not found in a repository, there are plently of things out there, even now.

That option is slowly being closed off, with the push to only install from Extras, resulting in a slightly more closed ecosystem.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

GA, I understand that a bit of control is necessary to miantain things n order and make sure that one doesn't break something else.

But even though extras is free, its still a Nokia channel some users might want the freedon to deliver something from a Non-Nokia channel (in fact there are quire a few nice apps for Diablo I installed from third party repos).

The same logic as you mention in the extreme is what is Apple (only in this case nothing is free).

Apple essentially says the same thing - all and everything iPhone related MUST be installed from the app store.

Its just a tie-down in some sense, dont you think, even though extras is open to developers and is free of cost unlike the app store (my conmparison is not a direct comparison, but more to put a point across) ?

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The problem is that a lot of the deb files you will find on the internet are not designed to be compatible with Maemo and could even break it if installed forcibly. Maybe Maemo apps/packages should have a different extension than .deb. That way, users won't be tempted to install apps that were not specifically designed to work well with Maemo.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Oh of course if the user is that dumb and installs any .deb file then he will run into problems.

But any Maemo software is usually labeled as being made for Maemo so then the deb file is always OK.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

When, exactly, did maemo.org Extras become a Nokia channel? :)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Maybe an app can be made available (but definitely not installed by default) that would allow installing local packages without the need for xterm. Users that avail themselves of that option would be on their own if what they install breaks their system, a clear warning should be provided in that regard from the app itself. That way, if they think they know what they are doing and just want a bit of convenience, they can have what they want. Any one looking for a good test app project? ;)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Hey, would you look at that! ;)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

just want to make something clear:



are you guys talking about single .deb files or about third-party repositories?
i was under the impression that adding a new catalogue in fremantle is trivial... in the SDK, there is a "catalogues" page with a "new" button (which is disabled, i attributed that to the SDK).

if it's only about single .deb files, i can understand it, but not allowing other catalogues to the end user by UI would be strange...

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

You don't have any connection with the Android team? Are you no longer working for the same employer?

Oh gnuite... You've gone to the Dark Side! :eek:

;)

(still waiting for maemo 5 mapper)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Win for the Motorola Droid:
Some versions of the screen shots show a 4row keyboard with dedicated number row (almost as good as a 5 row keyboard!) ... the others show a more conventional 4 row keyboard (not as good, but still better than 3 rows).
D-pad (not on the face, but better than nothing).
24bit color.
3.7" screen ... still not 4.1" (the minimum acceptable), but better than 3.5".
The Android app ecosystem.
Rumors that it might be mifi-type capable.

Wins for the Nokia N900:
Full/real Linux environment (with command-line and everything).
32GB of user storage.
Graphics controller.
TV-out.
GSM/WCDMA instead of CDMA/EVDO.
USB Host and OTG
FM Radio transmitter.
Not on Verizon.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

johnkzin: You're just joking about the USB host/OTG thing, right? I didn't think it was possible to miss that long and ugly thread...

I actually understand Google's perspective here. They're making an OS designed to run on all sorts of hardware, so they need to fight a bit harder to keep their revenue stream flowing. AFAIK there are four (or five depending on how you count) devices that run Maemo, all made by Nokia. Piracy just isn't as much of a concern (yet) for Nokia.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

No, I missed that thread... I was looking at specs I've seen for the two phones.

Is the N900 not actually going to have host/OTG support?

That'd suck.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I didn't mean Nokia channel as in controlled and run by Nokia, but the channel for installing on Nokia Maemo device.

My point is why should it be only one stop shop for installing Maemo software. Dont get me wrong, I am totally cool with it and understand the practicalieties of havinga one-stop shop in many cases and Nokia hasn't MANDATED anything, but if and when it becomes a mandate to ONLY and ONLY go thru this one channel, then it bothers me, as it becomes a question of control then.

That is what I am trying to put across.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

@nilchak

i think you just misunderstood lemmyslenders original post.

he says the app manager won't install single .debs anymore, which IMO is a good thing. dependencies on rogue .debs can be a pain in the ***, and the users who can deal with that, are users who usually have no problem with dpkg in a terminal. well, they should be :)

adding third-party repos is no problem to end-users:
look at this video at around 0:40, you can clearly see the app manager catalogue management.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I guess you're right - that is a connection. :) But Google is a pretty large company, and I have no insight into the Android team's business.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

So you propose that users use an Android channel for installing on a Nokia Maemo device? I'm not sure I get the issue, but it stinks of FUD.

Well, that'll never be the case since Nokia has official channels that are also involved. It's apt and an open source package manager they wont be mandating distribution channels anytime soon. . . . :\

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Nevermind, saw the thread and read it.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Where the hell did you come out with that one. I propose an Android channel to install Maemo software ? No sir, I never proposed that.

Maybe you are unclear because you are coming at me with an antogonistic attitude ? I am just trying to understand the issue here.

And your last para states exactly what I wanted to understand . so thanks. But no thanks for suggesting I am FUDding here .

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Extreme example was meant to encourage elaboration. :)

So am I!

Well then, glad we cleared that up.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Well there is one more Maemo device in the Asian market made by Optima, but its not released yet.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/04/o...-video-priced/

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

My point was that an average Diablo user can use google, find a Maemo deb file, save it, click on it (in the built in file manager) and install it. It may refuse to install due to dependency issues, if it does an end user likely stops there. If it does install, the user gets the benifit of new software (or the problems). There are plenty of standalone debs out there.

Many new users will be coming from older Palm and windows backgrounds. They would expect to be able to click on a file and easily install it on their new "mobile computer w/ phone"

Fremantle has eliminated this possibility. Nokia has "closed" off or eliminated a source of software to the casual end user. This provides a better safer end user experience.

I just wanted to point out that while Nokia is making the platform more open for developers, for end users it is now slightly more closed.