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- - Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33685)

maven1975

2009-11-06 05:55

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Well, Verizon raising their ETF's to $350 should show your how greedy they are.

Droid is completely out of the question for now here in the US.

Hey Verizon.. Go to hell! There IS a map for that too.

DaveP1

2009-11-06 15:51

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven1975 (Post 367002)

$350 is realistic given the discount they are offering on phones. I can sign up right now and get the Droid for $199. Add in the $350 ETF and it comes to $549 which is cheaper than an unlocked Droid (or an N900 from most US retailers, for that matter).

I can't complain about their ETF. The cost of their data plan and their tethering costs and their data limits - THOSE I can complain about.

johnkzin

2009-11-06 22:09

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

$15 is better than the alternatives ($30 for AT&T, infinite dollars for Sprint or T-Mobile-USA, since both simply don't allow tethering on smartphones). I agree it shouldn't cost more (bits are bits), but in comparison, the "$15 tethering fee", and their tethering policy in general, is probably one of the few things that I _like_ about Verizon (that, and having a mifi, are really the only things I like about them). I wish T-Mobile was as open about tethering these days (as they used to be before they launched 3G).

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 01:47

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cb474 (Post 366974)

Here's an nice more in-depth review of the multi-touch situation with the Droid and Apple's tenuous and not entirely existent patents:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/04/s...nd-multitouch/

Engadget points out, as they did with the Pre, that Apple does not actually appear to have a patent on the pinch-to-zoom multi-touch capability. So it's pretty unlikely it has anything to do with why this feature is available in the European Droid and not the U.S. one. They also point out that Windows 7 and the HD Zune have pinch-to-zoom enabled. And Apple has not said a word, further suggesting that there's nothing Apple can do about it (because if they could why would they let arch enemy Microsoft "steal" the feature?). They also point out that if Apple had a patent claim, Google would already be in violation since multi-touch support is built into Android 2.0 (even if it's not implemented). So they just don't buy that Google is worried at all about Apple and multi-touch.

Engadget says there are some claims that the pinch-to-zoom feature on the European Droid was implemented by Motorola. And Google implied it was Verizon's decision to leave it out on the U.S. Droid. And Engadget thinks what's most likely is that Google just hasn't finished developing multi-touch yet, but that it will be on future devices. Still they conclude, as I do, that the whole situation is just weird and doesn't really have a good explanation, given what's known.

I don't think Apple has a patent on multi-touch specifically. If so the USPTO REALLY REALLY screwed up. But rather they obtained a patent based on certain gestures (e.g. pinching). Which is still a screw-up. So even if Google had multi-touch support built in, Apple couldn't do anything as long as Google doesn't do pinch zooming.

But it's more likely that Apple realizes their patent is worthless if any court case were to look into it so they're hoping nobody else realizes that. :P

I really do wonder what's going on.

cb474

2009-11-07 02:35

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 367903)

I think if we realize it, Google and their lawyers definitely realize it.

Anyway, I don't think I said anywhere above that Apple somehow has a patent on multi-touch in general. I referred to Apple's patents (plural), they have patents on different gestures and techniques. I was already saying, what you're saying.

Also, in my post that you were quoting and responding to, I specifically pointed out that Apple actually doesn't have a patent on pinch-and-zoom (and cited a source to this end). So I'm not sure why you're referring to Apple as having a patent on pinching, as a reponse to my post talking about how they don't. That's part of the oddness of this whole thing. Most of the noise from Apple is about pinch-and-zoom, but that's actually one of the things that they don't even seem to have a bogus patent on.

In the end it seems like Apple has a lot of patents on things having to do with multi-touch (which are probably bogus), but nobody is necessarily copying those particular things. Still Apple is trying to intimidate people into thinking they somehow just own multi-touch in general. Except it doesn't seem like any handset manufacturer is actually intimidated.

SD69	2009-11-07 15:49

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 367803)

But this is not a problem if you bring your own unlocked, unbranded, smartphone to T-Mo US, correct?

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 15:53

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

T-Mobile generally won't care if you tether your device (if you can at all), it's just that you wouldn't get much use out of it because as with all other "unlimited plans" your real cap is just 5 GB a month. So outside of any browsing or work, if you plan on using it for videos or downloading any files your going hit the cap real quick and be subject to slow downs for the rest of the billing cycle.

Right now the phone I got from TMobile (Nokia 5130 Music Express) can tether to my n800 tablet and that's what I've been using so far. And the n900 will be able to tether to PCs too.

Rushmore

2009-11-07 16:02

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

The problem with Tmo is pee poor 3G coverage. No coverage in Kentucky (or most states), but Verizon covers 80% of the state with 3G. Heck, Tmo only covers 20% of the state with Edge for gosh sakes.

You get what you pay for, unless you live in an area that has Tmo 3G, then it is better, but if you travel a lot, Verizon is still better.

If the N900 worked on Verizon, I would bail from Tmo instantly. With my 15% discount, Verizon is only $9 more a month and I would have 3G everywhere.

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 16:11

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

True, it really depends on where you live. I lucked out, all the areas I am in 99% of the time in the USA, TMobile covers with 3G access. So I rather not pay alot more money for Verizon when the phone doesn't work outside of the USA (I plan on using my n900 in other countries when I have time to travel), and it would cost me more monthly. I'll take the 1% of the time using Edge for those benefits. :D

c0rt3x

2009-11-07 16:14

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enyibinakata (Post 363606)

Motorola RAZR sold over 100 million (much more than the N95) and since the DROID is a throwback to that, it may just click with most people. Its overly optimistic to claim that N900 will outsell the Cliq and Droid put together, Android may not be as powerful as our beloved Maemo but it ticks all the right boxes in this day of apps. Added to this, Nokia has failed to make much traction in the US market and the delay of the N900 has killed off any chances it ever had considering the DROID and Xperia plus numerous Android phones which are ready to go.

Motorola DROID will be on sale in Germany a week today as MILESTONE - thats fast delivery, much faster than N900 which was announced back in August and still bears a tentative release date.

The N900 is still in labour.

Be wary of speaking too soon.

This is completely irrelevant to the topic.

The difference here is that the N95 was considered as a mobile computer, while Razr wasn't. I'm sure that the Nokia 1208 with a black-and-white screen sold even more. But what does that have to do with this case (Iphone vs Symbian)!?

c0rt3x

2009-11-07 16:20

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cb474 (Post 363592)

Where are you getting your numbers? I can't confirm this. What I see is that the N95 sold 15 millions units. For example, that's the number cited on Nokia's Conversations web site, see: http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/...agship-device/

Whereas the iPhone sold 17 million units by March of this year (http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...7-million.html) and then in the last quarter alone sold another 7.4 million (http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/19...n-ever-before/). That adds up to 24.4 million iPhones. And that leaves out the quarter from April to June, so the number is probably closer to 30 million (i.e. twice as much as the N95).

Thanks for reading my whole post.

- I said only Iphone 2G and 3G, not all of them.
- I said all versions of the N95:s, not only the classic one

Now, why would I say something like that? Just a wild guess, but perhaps because the N95:s were mostly sold in 2007-2008, and so were the two first Iphones!?

That's the most fair and balansed comparison I could find for this topic. If you want to include all Iphones, then you can include all other Nseries phones as well...

And just for your own knowledge: the N95:s outsold the Qualcomm Iphones, believe it or not until you find proof for it being otherwise.

Quote:

Also the industry analyst predictions show Android phone sales just eclipsing Maemo and the iPhone, in the next three years (http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/ar...ars/1256668455). Admittedly, that will not be based on the Droid alone, but that's not Google's strategy so it's not really a relevant comparison. And Symbian is predicted to hold onto the most market share, but it's market share will be dropping rapidly, while the iPhone will be plateauing and Android will be growing over 1000%.

Why are you saying all this? This has nothing to do with my claim (that the N900 will outsell the Droid and Cliq combined). Or am I missing something here?

How can Android eclipse something that's not even out yet (it's about mobile OS, tablets are not included, you know)? You mean that Maemo won't catch up, right?

Rushmore

2009-11-07 16:31

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368236)

That is great! Another nice thing is we can take our phones to other countries and they work. As soon as I land at London Gatwick and turn my phone back on it say "Vodafone" at the top and will switch carriers depending on where I am at.

I do not think many Verizon phones including Droid can do that. Still, the 3G is fast :). I want my, I want my 3Geeeeeeee. Did Dire Straits sing that ;)

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 16:50

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushmore (Post 368251)

The Blackberries on Verizon sometimes come with cdma and gsm. But most devices on Verizon including Droid (though there is a GSM equivilent) are CDMA only. Oh you still need to buy a SIM from whatever country your in otherwise your going pay out the wazoo!!

Crashdamage

2009-11-07 17:02

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushmore (Post 368227)

The problem with Tmo is pee poor 3G coverage...You get what you pay for...

Not necessarily. T-Mobile has the newest, fastest 3G equipment and is building at a truly furious pace. They're on on pace to close the coverage gap with AT&T by roughly the end of 2010 and will have built a far superior network. T-Mobile's 3G here is nearly as large as AT&T's 3G already. And much faster.

Quote:

With...Verizon...I would have 3G everywhere.

Not everywhere. We've had Verizon 3G for our business notebooks for several years because their coverage is generally the largest. But it's not the best everywhere. AT&T 3G works some places Veri$on doesn't (particularly as you get farther from the city center) and of course the opposite is true in other areas.

Edit: I should add that from years of experience, Veri$on's 3G coverage maps of our area are a joke, bordering on an outright lie. Extremely optimistic to say the least.

Also consider since Veri$on uses CDMA you cannot do voice + data simultaneously. CDMA 3G works like Edge (2G) in that way. Doesn't matter for our notebooks but it does on a phone like the N900. I would never use CDMA service for a phone. That's why 12 years ago I choose Aerial (aka Voicestream aka T-Mo) over Sprint, to get GSM service.

I'll be trashing Veri$on on our notebooks as soon as it's practical, probably in about a year.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 19:27

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368214)

T-Mobile generally won't care if you tether your device

They used to not care.

They changed their terms of service last summer. Tethering is no longer allowed. At all.

Sure, they have to catch you at it ... and no word right now that they're looking for it*. But, if it comes up (or if you press them on some service issue and they'd rather not follow through on it), they can say "you violated the TOS, we're cutting you loose".

(* and they probably only care in their 3G areas)

johnkzin

2009-11-07 19:31

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashdamage (Post 368266)

Edit: I should add that from years of experience, Veri$on's 3G coverage maps of our area are a joke, bordering on an outright lie. Extremely optimistic to say the least.

Would that be because sometimes you get 1xRTT in areas they say you should get EVDO?

Verizon is playing a tricky nitpicking game, both with their customers, and in those "there's a map for that" commercials.

1xRTT is, according to some, a 3G protocol. Therefore, they're not lying. You're getting 3G coverage anywhere you get 1xRTT service. It's crappy/slow/laggy 3G service, but it's 3G service. And, thus, their 3G map is MUCH more inclusive than AT&T's 3G map (because EDGE definitely isn't a 3G protocol).

johnkzin

2009-11-07 19:37

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368212)

But this is not a problem if you bring your own unlocked, unbranded, smartphone to T-Mo US, correct?

No, not correct. It's not a technical problem. Many T-Mobile branded phones _will_ do tethering. And there's no technical thing that prevents you from doing it with an unlocked/unbranded phone.

The issue is that it's a blatant violation of the new (as of summer 2008) terms of service. If they notice that you're doing it, you're fodder for cancellation. Go over the 10GB data cap any time after they've detected you as doing tethering? maybe they'll throttle you, or maybe they'll cancel you because "you violated the TOS by tethering".

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 19:40

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368317)

Good to know, though given a device like the n900 can be pretty much used like a computer I don't think there's anyway you could reliably differentiate traffic.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 19:45

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368323)

Good to know, though given a device like the n900 can be pretty much used like a computer I don't think there's anyway you could reliably differentiate traffic.

You pass your traffic through their proxy. They could be doing things like watching the browser's signature to see whether or not you're using the built-in browser, vs. a desktop browser. I mean, if you've got Safari or Internet Explorer signature tags in your traffic, that's pretty clearly not your N900 :-)

SD69	2009-11-07 20:42

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368322)

The issue is that it's a blatant violation of the new (as of summer 2008) terms of service.

I think this is a bit askew. Here is the actual TOS language:

16. * Misuse of Service or Device. You agree not to misuse the Service or any Device, including: (a) reselling or rebilling our Service; (b) using the Service or Device to engage in unlawful activity, or engaging in conduct that adversely affects our customers, employees, business, or any other person(s), or that interferes with our operations, network, reputation, or ability to provide quality service; (c) tampering with or modifying your Device; (d) "spamming" or engaging in other abusive or unsolicited communications; (e) reselling T-Mobile Devices for profit, or tampering with, reprogramming or altering Devices for the purpose of reselling the Device; or (f) assisting or facilitating anyone else in any of the above activities. You agree that you won't install, deploy, or use any regeneration equipment or similar mechanism (for example, a repeater) to originate, amplify, enhance, retransmit or regenerate a transmitted RF signal. You agree that a violation of this section harms T-Mobile, which cannot be fully redressed by money damages, and that T-Mobile shall be entitled to immediate injunctive relief in addition to all other remedies available.

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 20:56

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368324)

Err...

1) You can change useragents on both the tablets and computer
2) You can run an alternative operating system on the tablets (e.g. debian that has its own browsers.
3) Other browsers (e.g. fennec).

They can speculate but in the end since the n900 and the previous tablets are more computer than smartphone there's no reliable way to differentiate them.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 21:31

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368343)

I think this is a bit askew. Here is the actual TOS language:

16. * Misuse of Service or Device

Read further:

Quote:

29. Additional Terms for Data Plans and Features

The following terms apply to your data plan or feature (“Data Plan”). To the extent any term in your Data Plan expressly conflicts with the general Terms and Conditions, which also apply to your service, the term in your Data Plan will govern. Please read your Data Plan carefully.

1. Permissible and Prohibited Uses

Your Data Plan is intended for Web browsing, messaging, and similar activities on your device and not on any other equipment. Unless explicitly permitted by your Data Plan, other uses, including for example, tethering your device to a personal computer or other hardware, are not permitted.

Examples of prohibited uses include but are not limited to: (...) (b) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections;

Tethering is explicitly forbidden.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 21:33

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368355)

Whether or not you can obscure it is not the point. The point is: you're in violation of your TOS if you do it. For those of us who like to be either safe, honest, or good customers (or a combination of those), that means it's off limits.

There's all kinds of things I CAN do. That doesn't make it a good idea to actually do them.

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 21:41

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

My point is that there's no way for them to differentiate the traffic. Not even by pattern of usage. Not like that matters though since the n900 is pretty much a computer anyway (you can do almost everything that is bandwith hungry on the computer on the n900 anyway).

johnkzin

2009-11-07 22:09

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368396)

My point is that there's no way for them to differentiate the traffic. Not even by pattern of usage.

There's no way for them to reliably differentiate the traffic. If you're intentionally being dishonest to avoid their ability to track you. There certainly are ways for them to differentiate the traffic of devices that aren't attempting to avoid their detection. Whether or not they detect it is beside the point. The point is: by doing it, you're violating the TOS. You're breaching a contract YOU signed. Those of us who are honest people consider that to be important, in and of itself.

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 22:16

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

I'm afraid your missing the point. My point is that the n900 is so close to a computer that any user that uses the n900 like they do their computer can't be differentiated from a user that tethers their device. That is unless they have a dumb phone or an Android smartphone that doesn't have the capability that Maemo 5 and the n900 have.

I'm not saying anything regarding the TOS, or whether it's right or wrong.

SD69	2009-11-07 22:19

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368391)

Read further:

Tethering is explicitly forbidden.

Except if the data plan permits it.

Aren't the new Even More plans explicitly equipment agnostic?

johnkzin

2009-11-07 22:28

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368408)

My point is that the n900 is so close to a computer that any user that uses the n900 like they do their computer can't be differentiated from a user that tethers their device.

Which is irrelevant.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 22:30

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368409)

Except if the data plan permits it.

Aren't the new Even More plans explicitly equipment agnostic?

They're equipment agnostic in as much as "you don't have to have a data plan on smartphones, if you don't want one". But the plans themselves, as far as I know, still don't mention being approved for tethering.

Laughing Man

2009-11-07 22:49

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368414)

Which is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368317)

Sure, they have to catch you at it ... and no word right now that they're looking for it*. But, if it comes up (or if you press them on some service issue and they'd rather not follow through on it), they can say "you violated the TOS, we're cutting you loose".

(* and they probably only care in their 3G areas)

That's why it's relevant. Because if they can't differentiate who's tethering with the n900 (because like I pointed out, the other phones can't do what the n900 can do) and who is simply using the n900 heavily, well I doubt they're going risk pissing people off. Especially since then they're breaking the contract.

SD69	2009-11-07 22:52

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368415)

No, they're equipment agnostic in as much as you can use them with any device you want.

Have you read the Even More plans?

johnkzin

2009-11-07 22:55

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 368428)

Which is only about enforcement against dishonest people.

Which, as I already said, is not the totality of the discussion.

zikarus

2009-11-07 22:58

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

The original poster's point is that N900 hardware is about the same as the best Android devices, not better any more.

But him making this a point does not naturally make it a point:

There may be similarities hardware wise but just to give one example - I do not know any other smartphones than those from Nokia offering multislot class 32 GRPS. And the N900 10 MB/s UMTS is not found often either...

johnkzin

2009-11-07 23:04

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368430)

No, they're equipment agnostic in as much as you can use them with any device you want.

Have you read the Even More plans?

Yes. There is NOTHING in the EM+ plan that says it's ok to use your data plan with anything other than the device that has your plan's SIM card inserted into it. Nor does it say anything specifically to contradict/set-aside/exempt the T&C/TOS explicit statement about tethering.

And, the T&C/TOS, still clearly state:

Your Data Plan is intended for Web browsing, messaging, and similar activities on your device and not on any other equipment. Unless explicitly permitted by your Data Plan, other uses, including for example, tethering your device to a personal computer or other hardware, are not permitted.

The only wiggle room is: whether or not you could get a lawyer to make it stick, in court, that "on your device" doesn't specify "on your directly serviced by T-Mobile, with your T-Mobile SIM card inserted into it, device". It's POSSIBLE to make that stick, but I'm willing to bet on T-Mobile's lawyers in that one. The spirit of it is clearly aimed against tethering, as explained just one sentence later.

SD69	2009-11-07 23:23

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

There is NOTHING in the EM+ plan that says it's ok to use your data plan with anything other than the device that has your plan's SIM card inserted into it.

I asked about the Even More plan, not the EM+ plan.

Quote:

Your Data Plan is intended for Web browsing, messaging, and similar activities on your device and not on any other equipment. Unless explicitly permitted by your Data Plan, other uses, including for example, tethering your device to a personal computer or other hardware, are not permitted.

You can't reach a conclusion about the Even More plan until you've read the Even More data plan.

johnkzin

2009-11-07 23:45

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368443)

I asked about the Even More plan, not the EM+ plan.

The EM+ plan is the one that has some degree of hardware agnosticism. The EM plan does not, as far as I know.

Quote:

You can't reach a conclusion about the Even More plan until you've read the Even More data plan.

Ok, so, show me where/how it allows tethering.

SD69	2009-11-08 00:06

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 368456)

Ok, so, show me where/how it allows tethering.

Me show you?? You're the one asserting that T-Mobile doesn't allow tethering. You're the one asserting that, despite the plan that allows you to use any device you want, you can't tether to any device you want.

johnkzin

2009-11-08 00:11

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368466)

I've shown you the only terms and conditions I can find that covers their plans, and how it states that tethering isn't allowed. You've counter-asserted that their EM plan allows this. I'm saying "back up your counter-assertion: show me".

I've backed up my statement. You back up yours.

SD69	2009-11-08 00:33

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

You've counter-asserted that their EM plan allows this.

No I haven't.

Quote:

I've backed up my statement.

Umm..

tethering is prohibited unless the data plan permits it.

But then you don't provide the data plan.

Poor backup.

johnkzin

2009-11-08 00:41

Re: Can someone tell me why N900 and not Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 368476)

tethering is prohibited unless the data plan permits it.

But then you don't provide the data plan.

Because no such "allows tethering" data plan exists. Yet you seem to be pretty sure, by way of repeating its name over and over again, that Even More's data plan allows tethering. If you're just shooting in the dark, then say so. But if you actually know that the plan does allow it, then lets see it.

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