Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I'll PM Reggie and ask him to reply in this thread as it doesn't really matter how much we discuss this if there is no ability/willingness to change the forums.

If there isn't, then maybe a whole new site for pre-N900 devices/OS may be the way to go, as brought up by a few others.
That way people who find this forum hard to navigate would at least have an option - a site dedicated to non-N900 topics - and the ones that don't mind the current setup can remain here.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I am monitoring this thread.

I'm open to restructuring the forums but I'm not sure if the structure proposed is the best one. Maybe we should just remove Applications, Multimedia, and Games, and just have the discussion software topics part of the specific OS forum. Or maybe just create one Software sub-forum under each OS platform...

Also, regardless what the new structure is, there will be some changes in the Active Topics to show the parent category and then the sub-category since 'Applications' or 'Games' will not be meaningful anymore without showing the parent category (e.g. 'Maemo 5') as well.

Keep discussing and proposing. Bring the issue up to the council so there will be a more formal way of discussing the alternatives, once they have all been fully discussed.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Wouldn't a dropdown-list as "most active topics" be useful?

So everyone could choose which category is active, without seeing the rest.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think that yes, it's past time for a reorganization... however I'm undecided on the best way to do so. Perhaps we should have a brainstorm posted with various people posting their ideas?

What do you think, Reggie?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Yes, we should be using brainstorm. :D

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I'd actually like to take the discussion further-- and think about maemo.org 3.0. A revamp of everything. I'd like it to look something like the Ubuntu site:

http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Plus, require users to give their address when registering, so we can send hired assassins to get those who do not use the search feature before asking a question.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I personally prefer the rather simple vBulletin-style forum that is in place now - also, I think a re-org of the forums mentioned is a rather urgent need and not something that should be lumped into some 3.0-revam-everything-effort. A few changes to the current structure is, as you have seen from the poll replies, needed - now and not later.

Such efforts may or may not be throw-aways when/if such a major revamp comes around but it does not make the imminent need any less important. The current structure has gone on for too long and its flaws are becoming more and more evident.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I disagree on both counts.

For one, maemo.org is more than just Talk. I would prefer we step back, look at the whole site and map out a better integration and design.

I also don't see the urgency. We've weathered worse... and what many newcomers fail to see is that the forum you're using now was the result of a fairly recent revamp after significant debate. So, no, the current structure has not "gone on too long".

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I disagree with your points.

If what we are seeing now is the result of a recent revamp then I feel that the individuals involved in that must not have had the foresight to see the issues we are now faced with.

Also, that the current structure has not "gone on too long" is your opinion and I disagree with it. It has gone on too long and should be re-done sooner than later.

No offense meant but you have a tendency of writing things as if they were well established facts when they more often than not are just your own thoughts. And to hide behind 'what newcomers fail to see', 'most of us old timers', etc is getting relatively old.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

The thing for me is that when I look back at previous reorganizations of TMO, I can't really think of anything that was done that actually helped anything really. Kind of just felt like reorganizing the same office cubicles when maybe the solution is to tear down the walls... whatever that radical change would be here on TMO, I don't know.

That's what brainstorm's for.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

What you fail to realize is that there was plenty of foresight but no escaping what I have patiently tried to explain before: the need is three dimensional. The format is only two. This means that subjects are actually matrixed, which is why tagging can and likely will work better than any reformat.

There is also no way of completely avoiding overlap between subjects. The best we can do is consider the predominance of posts and continually evaluate the need for adjustment or even reinvention. Note that I'm not opposed to either... but after having gone through this ordeal here already I'm personally a bit gun shy and see a great deal of value in proceeding with caution after significant thoughtful debate rather than reaction driven by an ill-formed sense of urgency.

As for my writing style, it tends to be objective, and the "well established facts" at play here are the knowns of having been there, done that and not "just my own thoughts". Conclusions based on those well-established facts, however, are my own.

No offense either, but I can't see how recent arrivals could have the necessary context to understand any hesitation for a revamp... unless of course they've been involved in forum design of this type and magnitude already.

Oh, and no one is hiding behind anything. That's your interpretation, and not the reality.

EDIT: emphasis added for clarity

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Ok, I give up.

If anyone knows of a maemo site/forum with a pre-N900 focus - do let me know since it's becoming apparent that there are enough people here willing to stop such a change (for whatever agenda they may have).

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I almost agree... and maybe you didn't intend to Jay but that partially proves my point.

We can rearrange the deck chairs of the Titannic all day, but once it's hit the ice berg, well... :D

Aagain, I'm not at all opposed to a revamp. I'm just concerned when I see words like "urgent" cast out so cavalierly. That sort of talk can lead to rash action.

Hey, it's just a forum anyway. :p

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Again you misinterpret the reactions.

1) Let's quit leaping to irrational conclusions
2) Let's Brainstorm over this
3) Let's leave emotions, namecalling, tantrums and rash judgment out of it
4) Let's try to come to some sort of reasoned consensus
5) If need be, let's change things

How is that opposition?

And agendas? Sigh. More conspiracy talk... :rolleyes:

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

The problem with making a seperate forum with a pre-n900 focus is that your not going get any of the existing developers on there unless they're sticking only to the pre-n900 tablets. There are still applications or projects that are cross-platform (e.g. flipclock, dialcentral, easy Debian)

Splitting the forums into pre-n900 and n900 won't help because then the developers are going have to tend to two seperate topics for their applications and one of them isn't going get as much focus.

An enforced tagging system (e.g. it wouldn't allow threads without the tags) would allow people to see that this application is for n800/n810 and n900. But the resulting problem is that posts in that thread could range from n800/n810 to n900 and then everyone has to sift through those.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Agreed. Tags are only half the solution: the other is filtering. With it, we have the three dimensional solution. :)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I like the idea of mandatory tags and filters. I figure that means I could go through a checklist that would let me view all New Posts of everything that was not exclusively N900-oriented or Games-oriented -- right?

However, I do feel there is some urgency as pre-N900 is dying from drowning; I personally know of some members coming here much less often because of it, and I suspect there are more.

(OT: BTW, Reggie, I've really come to like the look of the post-InternetTabletTalk forum design. I miss the name "TabletTalk," but since your change to the more subdued orange, I've liked maemo.org visually.)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I would certainly hope so... but I don't know offhand if vBulletin supports that or not.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think restructuring could be avoided if the search function was improved. This could be done (assuming the software supports it) by allowing one to subscribe to specific forums for the New Post search, by allowing the advanced search to search with no keyword (which would allow the same thing as the previous suggestion), or by allowing the advanced search to recognize a 'not' function.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

In other words, use the Forum titles (General, Brainstorm, ... Applications, Multimedia, Games, ... Maemo 6, etc.) as filters? If that's possible, that would do some of what's needed. (I think "subscribe" is the wrong word here, but I assume you mean the opposite of filter.) But how would Maemo 4 users get to see only those threads in Applications that are relevant to them? (Ditto, of course, for Maemo 5 users.)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I would truly like to see a dynamic forum, one that can be made so context-sensitive and configurable that, if desired, a vistor could format it to present the views he/she desired. Such forum modules exist-- I just don't know if vBulletin is one.

I might also like to the see the forum broken up. Why not split it across the site, so that you see the Community forum only from the Community page, et al? Although again this could be configurable so that it's just a default.

One *possible* issue that I think gets overlooked in these discussions: the forum is hosted on a separate server. I don't know if that actually impacts solutions oriented around configuration but it *might*.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Subscribe is probably the wrong word. In Advanced Search (under the Search entry on the right side menu) you can limit your search to specific forums and you can limit it to posts since your last visit. What you can't do is return all posts that pass those filters. You need to give it a search term (and terms like 'a' or 'the' don't work). I would like to specify the forums I'm interested in and have the 'New Posts' return only results from those forums and/or have Advanced Search allow blank searches.

Still, you are right that you might miss posts to the wrong forum. That is why allowing the 'not' function might be preferable. If I could specify '-N900' or 'NOT N900' I'd be happy.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Reggie, I believe as strongly as ever:

We need a new forum for N8x0 or a new structure for this forum!

So, it seems to me that we need to know: what can be done? If it's possible, it seems to me that the easiest solution is: Split Applications (and I guess each of the other sub-categories of Software, too) into Maemo 5 and pre-Maemo 5. Then make Searches -- above all, the "New Posts" search -- filterable.

For each of the categories (as listed on the front page of Talk), there would be a checkbox for whether the search included that category or not. Hopefully, such a selection could be remembered for each user so that he/she wouldn't have to go through the selection process each time.

Are these forum enhancements something that can be implemented?

Alternatively, is the meta-tags approach discussed earlier in this thread something you can implement? We can't really progress toward a solution without knowing what is possible in this forum format (vBulletin, I guess).

Also, moderator, could you combine this other thread into this one?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I agree, many of us would like to somehow filter Maemo 5 posts so that we can view our N8xx posts. Seems like 90% of posts now are N900 related.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

If vBulletin supports it, I think that one fairly easy solution to improving viewing is to tab the main sections, as so:

Talk | Software | OS/Platform | Devices | Beta Features | Old

That reflects the current structure but I am making no judgment here on what should go, stay or change-- just proposing tabs in general.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I agree with GeraldKo, especially the new posts filter part.
@Texrat, since I mostly use the New Posts feature just reorganizing the tabs would be of no use to me.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Understood. Like I said earlier, there is no "one size fits all" solution. ;)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Here is just my $.02. I have noticed over my brief return that it is getting increasingly confusing to tell between those that are posting for N900 or N8x0. I have just started to assume everything is N900 unless specifically noted otherwise. So yes, finding stuff for my N810 is a little cumbersome.

However, I mostly use the "new posts" link and read through there and I have no problems as I like to follow the N900 threads as well. I may well end up with one some day and want to be informed, but also - the development of Maemo 5 should impact Mer in some way (if the Mer project is still active) and Mer is supposed to be the Maemo 5 for the N8x0 types.

I would think Texrat is on to something with a complete re-org as I understand "talk" is just a subsection of Maemo.org. So Maemo.org as a whole might need a new configuration that somehow separates the various platforms into separate forums, and/or very specific subforums for those platforms. Detailed Information and Wiki's would also need to be grouped.

Although where to draw the line is confusing.. do we do each platform? N770, N800, N810 and N900? Do we group N770-N810 together? Remember the N770 had about as much compatibility with the N800 and N810 as any of the three now do to N900... but due to hacking and the people on this forum the N770 was brought up to speed with the N800/810 that made them almost identical. What happens if the same thing happens again? Do we re-org again since posts relating to the N900 will suddenly be relevant to the older ones?

My only real concern is.. the last time we did a big thing like that was from iTT to maemo.org... and I'm sorry - I simply couldn't stand the new forum layout. I participated in the vote to get the "old" black-style interface back but got the impression that it simply wasn't going to happen. Thus, I stopped coming back. The new layout really bothered me that badly that trying to force myself to read it was more painful than I cared to bother with.

I have now learned that very shortly after I stopped returning Reggie added the black back (BIG THANKS BTW).. and have started participating where I can again... as this older "cludgy" vbulletin style formatting is simply easier for me. I would be worried that if we do another complete re-org that we might lose the backwards compatibility again and I would once again be without my Maemo information :(.

Granted that's selfish.. and I am but one person... but I happen to like it here. This community is by far one of the best technical communities I've been in... I personally hate Ubuntu's.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Maybe grouping, device-wise, could go as follows:

-old legacy (all devices other than the next ones specified)
-recent legacy (device or platform released just before current one)
-current
-future (yeah yeah, a 100% speculation section :p)

This, then, would be a permanent structure and as more devices were released, maintenance becomes a simple matter of moving device-oriented subforum(s) to the appropriate section.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think filtering New Posts is pretty close to one-size-fits all, assuming different people can set up different filtering rules. But, a problem: should applications have separate threads for different devices? For example, Tear and gPodder are presumably going to have similar functionality in Fremantle vs. Diablo (vs. Mer we hope). But they will presumably have different interfaces and different installation/troubleshooting issues. Either way has flaws: noise or duplicated info.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I agree on filtering, if it can be done.

I feel strongly that apps should have separate threads based on platform. I don't want to be using Diablo and find myself reading things that apply only to Fremantle (especially when I can't determine if what I'm reading is specific only to Fremantle!). If, say, Bundyo adds a feature for tear, I believe he would have to add it separately for each platform anyway. I'd be interested to see if Bundyo, thp, and other bi-platform developers have a problem with separating threads by platform. To me, it makes sense.

Grouping for now seems simple:

1. N900
2. 770, N800, N810
3. Future

Why complicate it?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Gerald,

What about my previous example that when the N810 was the new item.. the N770 still had not caught up to it. Thus, the structure back then would have looked like:
N810/N800
N770
Future

But because of developments on this site and at Nokia the 770 became capable of running anything (mostly) that the N8x0 could. I believe there are still minor gaps that the 770 is incapable of doing, however I don't have exact references just memory. So then we would have re-org'd again since the 770 and 8x0 aren't so different anymore.

So what happens if it comes that Mer becomes a decent alternative to Maemo 5 for the N8x0? Or something else develops that allows N8x0 users to now keep up with the N900??? Should we re-org, yet again?

I think the more feasible solution is operating system, and not platform, based... or Texrat's debian/linux style of "stable, unstable, testing"/"legacy","current","future". That is more maintainable over the various changes that can happen on a dynamic and fluid environment such as this where god only knows where are our devices will be tomorrow.. let alone next year, or by the time the next N9xx is released.

It does create a more constant workload on forum administrators to be moving threads between the various sections as they become outdated or "legacy" as new projects are released... but seems easier than a complete re-org of all categories and everything every time a new device hits the market.

We need to be thinking not just right now.. but 10 years from now. What solution offers the best and easiest adaptable layout for long-term implementation?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I guess I need to make sure I'm following Texrat correctly. Texrat (in Post #70) is introducing an additional layer of categorization, no? The arrangement for the currently existing platforms and devices would be

Category Old Legacy
Sub-Categories: 770; and with his definition, maybe N800?

Category Recent Legacy:
Sub-Categories: N810 (including WiMax), and N800 if it isn't in the above category?

Category Current
Sub-Category: N900

Category Future
Sub-Category: Anything else people want to speculate on?

Even in Texrat's arrangement, I'm not sure where Mer goes. All that makes his better is if you can move Sub-Categories among the Categories. Actually, I'm not even sure where his Categories go in the big scheme. Is there, for example, an Old Legacy category under Games and another Old Legacy category under Applications?

It seems easier to do it all in terms of OS version. So why not just have Chinook/Diablo, Fremantle, Harmattan as sub-categories of the Software categories (which is all I'm talking about). When Harmattan-Successor comes out, just add on another heading and leave the others alone. Yes, if we had started this way a year ago, there might have been a distinction between Chinook and Diablo. Fine.

As for Mer under the above OS-based categorization for Software, I don't think it needs to be in there at all. If I understand correctly, once Mer is running as intended, it will just run Fremantle software as is, no? So there is no need for a Mer category under Software; Fremantle is sufficient. Mer eventually will be fine as a subcategory of OS/Platform (where it's currently squished into Alternatives).

So, divide Software categories by platform, and have a checkmark-type filter.

Or for another approach, just divide up the Software Category exactly how the OS/Platform category is divided up. In my opinion it's of trivial importance to have Games and Apps and Design and Multimedia separated compared to the importance of separating platforms within Software. Ideally, we could separate by both type (e.g., Games vs. Apps) and platform, but if we get only one, I think Platform is far more important.

None of this means anything until we get some feedback on willingness and feasibility from Reggie. Reggie?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Again: the problem is 3-dimensional. It will not be 100% addressed by any 2-dimensional solution.

And Mer is an OS, not a device. My example was solely device specific and not meant to be read as the ultimate solution, but rather a possible part of a solution.

Glad to see a logical discussion coming out of this though. ;)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I still don't see the need to use devices as a categorization at all since there are so many different operating systems for the 770, 800 and 810 that you can't just really make a category for the "N810" as heaven knows what an individual might have on it. I suspect the N900 will eventually be this way as well.

My thoughts on the organization would be not to have 2 legacy.. just one:

Legacy:
2006, 2008-Chinook

Current:
Fremantle, 2008-Diablo

Future:
Mer, Maemo 6

Remove the devices completely (Diablo may need to be under legacy, but as Diablo is the "current" N8x0 release, and to be the last if I'm not mistaken, it may be a "Legacy" item)... eventually someone somewhere could very likely port one OS to another device and to add devices just makes it more confusing. There could be a normal FAQ or Help file (wiki?) somewhere for complete noobies that just came to this site with their recently bought N810 off ebay on "How to determine your OS" or "Version" to see which category they need to be looking in.

When Mer becomes stable and a Fremantle side-by then it would be moved and merged with Fremantle in the "Current". When Maemo 6 goes live Fremantle/Mer would then move to Legacy and Maemo 6 into Current.

It actually emulates exactly how repo's are managed for any Deb/RPM based system. Unfortunately, this still requires a whole lot of re-organization every time a new project becomes "stable" replacing the old project.. whether that new project is the N910, Mer, or just an Early build of Maemo 6 that runs on the N900, whatever... it requires a "mini-reorg" so to speak of moving categories around. Legacy becomes something of a "trash" bin for the older projects/software for a specific amount of time (that will have to be determined) before that category is removed and people still running 2006 are SOL :).

However, it does provide an exact look at the "state of things" as it is right now. People pull up the forum index and immediately see "These OS's are the Current, these are outdated, and these are in testing". Now, if you're running an N810 you'll stay away from the Fremantle areas for now; but that won't necessarily always be the case. You'll spend your time in Mer or Diablo. Once Mer becomes viable then Mer and Fremantle would, in theory, become joined and then all these N900 threads your dismissing currently would become relevant to you. (well not really, as hopefully by then the problems of today will be solved, replaced by the new problems *cough* features *cough* of the fixes that are applied for the problems of today.)

Either way, if we break it up by a device at all it adds confusion. The N7/8x0 were such geeks devices that nearly no two are identical anymore... the only thing that can be somewhat related from one to the other is the operating system which it runs.. and that's entirely platform independent.

Please excuse the rambled mess.. I personally haven't thought an entire layout or design through completely in my head yet I'm just throwing out possibilities or problems I foresee.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I used to come to the forums twice a day, maybe more often, to click the "new posts" and see what was what. When the n900 news started to become real I visited more often to keep track, but then the forum degenerated into iphone-vs-nokia flames, wailings and moanings about deliveries and the endless speculation. Luckily this latter phase has begun to die out,

However, I think this cured me of my ITT (or is it TMO) forum "addiction"... I now only visit a couple of times a week, sometimes just once and when I click the "new posts" it takes a lot of effort to find something technically interesting. Mostly, I find I get more out of the planet maemo blog RSS feed, as interesting stuff percolates back to the top.

I was actually wondering if I was being a snob in thinking that this forum desperately needs moderation, or at least control over who can create new threads to try and improve the quality and reduce the noise.

If things don't actually get any better, and deteriorate to being no better than gsmarena, I will probably stop coming back.

I still use my n800 as much as ever. I don't know if/when I will buy an n900. Part of the appeal of the n810 and predecessors was the community, but now I'm sorry to say it's more of a rabble or mob.

OTOH, for a community to be successful, it needs new blood and new life. The Zaurus forums at oesf.org have been slowly dying for quite a while - lack of new devices for sale, and boredom and apathy amongst the users. There's a balance to be struck and I think this forum was once excellent, and I hope it will be again.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I would limit device forum topics to pure hardware.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

A way to tell easily if there have been new posts in a thread you have posted in (without having to go back to the thread( would be nice.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think fatalsaint and I may have a semantic problem. When I say Platform, I guess I really mean OS.

To lump together Diablo and Fremantle (as "Current") completely defeats the point of a re-design. Read this thread (posts 1 through 4, in order) to see my point! Besides, it wouldn't filter out all the stuff that I (and some other non-N900 owners) don't want to wade through.

Why not just put all software posts under their respective OS??? That plus add filtering check boxes for, for example, New Posts. That's all I think most people are asking for.