Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think we had a disconnect. "Current" would be a main category.. with "Diablo" and "Fremantle" as separate sub-categories. N900 users shouldn't be posting help requests in "DIablo" and vice versa for Fremantle.

Right now we have an Applications, Games, Devices, Operating System, and several other areas .... As a new user especially, and even as one that's been here a while.. I'd have no real Idea where to post a question. So I just wrote an Application, we'll say a game, it runs on my N810 using Diablo.

Would I announce it in N810? No, technically it will run on N800's running Diablo too. Games? I guess, but it's also an application, and only works for Diablo. Applications? Ok, but it's also a Game, and same problem as being Diablo only. Diablo? This is probably the best bet.. but it might go missed by people looking specifically for "games" or "applications".

This is my dilemma with the current layout. With the new layout it would be pretty straight forward... It goes under Diablo. Anything running diablo would then be able to test it and report back.

A separate section for "Hardware" would then contain the N900, N810, N800, N770 sections and, as Tex said, be specifically for hardware only. Granted.. that becomes immediately confusing to new users when they look at the index... "Do I post my question in N810, or Diablo?".. so it would be up to the mod's to move threads to the right areas if someone cross-posts.

Include with this some ability for users to "select" which categories they want the "New Posts" link to only show (or all) would also be beneficial. So as an N810 user, you could enable Diablo and N810 categories only to show when you click "New Posts", for example.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

The threads are bolded in that case, already. But how else would you indicate something like that without the thread actually being visible? My current solution is subscriptions, which work great.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I still can't see it being 100% straightforward, again due to dimensional limitations. Which is why there are so many factors to consider here. Which is why this was such an ordeal the last time... and split the community.

New Posts is Now Useless
 

The N900 forum, with 44,275 posts and 6 pages of threads that were updated today, has made the New Posts navigation useless for anyone not interested in the N900 discussion.

Those of us who still use our Diablo devices on a daily basis need to have an option to search for new posts on a select list of forums.

While I can't compare to the top active posters here in either volume or expertise, I have tried to be helpful where I could. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up. If things don't change, I fear too many NIT users will abandon active participation in the forums.

Re: New Posts is Now Useless
 

I'm a n00b here, but can't you just subscribe to the threads you are interested in?

but I agree this forum is becoming a mess with all the spam from mostly iTards

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Texrat, when was "last time"? If you mean when it changed from InternetTabletTalk to maemo.org, I think that was a very different set of factors.

fatalsaint's layout (now that I understand it) is OK with me. I don't really care if it's called Current or Legacy or not; what is important is that the pre-N900 and N900 stuff get divided as they have incredibly little to do with one another! Different hardware and different operating system and incompatible software running on them! Yes, it would also be nice to divide off "games" from "applications," etc., but that's not very important. But separating out the Diablo-related and Fremantle-related threads is very important.

For my part, once again, I just want to be able to go through the New Posts without having to discard, one by one, 40 irrelevant threads for every relevant one.

Reggie, have you an opinion?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Sorry, I just don't see it as very complicated. What's complicated or significantly inadequate about just dividing up the Software section by the OS on which it runs, and then implementing a filtering system where you can Search (including New Posts) just the Talk subcategories you want?

Please lay out specific problems, if you have any with that.

Re: New Posts is Now Useless
 

This has become the relevant thread on the problem.

Re: New Posts is Now Useless
 

No, because you then miss new, relevant threads; and because then you're getting it through email, which is inefficient compared to a useful New Posts listing.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I will agree with you Texrat that no 1 solution is going to suffice for everybody. It just won't happen.. even if we decide on a structure on and reformat.. chances are likely in 4-6 months someone else will have a "better" idea and start this all over again.

I just don't think there's ever going to be a way around that. I do think that a rotative system like I (you?) described (I don't know if it's what you meant, but that's what I took from your idea's previously) might work for a while.. as it at least has some form of "future" look built into it.. simply moving sub-categories to their respective areas.. but still - someone will dislike it, or want more granular detail, or less detail, or less and more... with a cherry, icing, a chocolate cake.

That's just the Internet, really the human species, though.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

No... like I said earlier, last restructuring.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

The implementation isn't complicated at all, and I don't think I ever said it needed to be. Heck I could craft something up in half an hour or less, have it in a day later, done.

The problems though have already been highlighted. There are going to be posts that straddle 2, 3 or more of the sort of sections we're talking about, especially in the case of troubleshooting posts. There's no getting around that no matter what sort of structure is created.

The complications, then, are in the aftermath of change. Where the Law of Unintended Consequences reigns. ;)

So the best we can do is identify, at a very high level, the best sort of structure to begin with (is there anything remotely near a clear consensus on that yet? I can't tell) and then as we drill down into details (ie, opportunities for posting confusion) we identify and implement the best solutions for managing what we can with regards to "topic bleed".

Or least worse solutions, as the case may be.

And I would truly love to be wrong in that above assessment. :p

Re: New Posts is Now Useless
 

I think I'm just going to subscribe to the RSS feeds for the more relevant subtopics.

By the way, I'd been meaning to share this graph from Google Reader of the main feed statistics.

http://www.google.com/chart?cht=bvg&...9%2C10.0%2C0.0

The blue is the number of new posts per day. (The orange is the number of posts I read each day.)

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Texrat and fatalsaint, I think we have different levels of patience here. I have the feeling that you're letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good. Perhaps because you have more interest in the N900/Fremantle, you may still see this Forum as Good Enough. For me, the current state of the forum is clearly Not Good.

Sure, there are instances where a person could post in different threads. I don't see that as a big deal. If they post a thread in "OS/Platform: Fremantle" or in "Software: Fremantle," it just isn't going to make much difference. Maybe they can't tell where software ends and hardware begins and they post it in "Devices: N900." So what? Usually they'll probably be right, and it just doesn't much matter if they aren't.

The Diablo world however has little overlap with the Fremantle world, so they need to be split. Maybe someday Mer will make that distinction fuzzy -- well, at that point, a person can look through both.

Your posts have done nothing to show me what's lacking in just (A) dividing up Software by OS (with or without subcategories for Apps, Games, etc.) and (B) instituting a checkbox filtering mechanism for Searches including the New Posts search.

I'm yet to see a specific hypothetical that shows a significant problem.

Less important:
As far as I'm concerned, Software could be divided up into (1) Games and (2) All Software Other Than Games (and other than the OS Itself, which would still be under OS/Platform). Then there would be

Fremantle
--Games
--All Software Other Than Games

Diablo/Chinook
--Games
--All Software Other Than Games

And when Harmattan gets software of its own, the above categories would continue to exist, along with, above those,

Harmattan
--Games
--All Software Other Than Games

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

This is not meant as any offense at anyone and it includes myself: I see this subject as continually going in circles. Everyone has their pet vision for how this place should look and THAT is my main complaint: I don't see a consensus despite or maybe because of a lot of talk.

Personally I think this is one of those issues that requires a benevolent dictator (ie Reggie), and the following process:

- Someone starts the Brainstorm (I'm willing)
- Every one passionate about reforming the forum proposes one solution apiece, adding a well-documented plan to the Brainstorm item.
- At some point, Reggie sifts through the suggestions and picks one (or parts from many)

Now, this is of course incumbent on (a) Reggie's willingness and (b) adequate participation.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Start that Brainstorm going, buddy!

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

At no point did I even attempt to say there is anything wrong with dividing the forum into OS sections. In fact, that's exactly the outline I've been saying.

I simply agree with Texrat that there will be no one-sized fits all solution. As passionate as you are about it.. there's someone else out there that will dislike whatever you come up with.. and this will be brought up again. People still will get confused about where to put what.

Just because I acknowledge and accept these facts, does not mean I'm in any way arguing against a reform. The two notions are in no way related.... I can believe in a reform and yet still completely accept that tomorrow (assuming the reform happened today) there will be a thread that says "I DON'T LIKE THE NEW LAYOUT!!!!!!!".

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Brainstorm created.

Item: http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...sign_for_2010/

Discussion: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=428487

Time to get solutions going!

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Just to say to whomever it was wanted a solution that will last for 10 years... why? Who knows where any of us, including maemo, will be in ten years?

If we can get a solution that will keep most of the people happy most of time for the next 6-12 months, we can think again then. Communities change. Websites change. If we can come up with a structure that will expand and incorporate Harmattan when the time comes, than I think we'll have done extremely well.

I don't have any clever solutions to offer, though I can see how annoying it must be to members who're still making good use of the 770,. n800 and n810 to find the forum flooded with n900bs.

For me the most challenging element is threads that wander: there was a case in Apps where a thread had started out being about OS2008, then wandered off into saying 'this would work on the n900 too'... then a newcomer came into the forum and started a brand new question asking exactly the same question about the n900 - and quite rightly hadn't made the connection that his question was answered in an OS2008 thread.

In a perfect world, that might be sorted by having lots of mods willing to extract posts from one thead to another, merge, create back-links etc. But I'm reluctant to suggest more moderation in somewhere so free.

How deep a level can we filter by tag? Could you tag individual posts. Could you make checking an 'OS' box a component of posting (preferably required)? Could it at least be a requirement of posting a new thread?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I guess the reason I wanted to look ahead is because the people that have been around even longer than I (800/770) have seen this exact thread over, and over, and over again. I have witnessed a couple of these myself and I joined about 1.5 years ago, I guess? Several threads over time have crept up over the life of the forum requesting complete re-orgs for this reason or that.

Firstly, that has to be annoying for Reggie and other mods. Plus, some of those threads were more successful than others... and some caused some major problems.

Constantly reorganizing the entire forum every time something new comes out seems silly. But that is just my humble opinion.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I would like to think the next re-org addresses 90% of the complaints and avoids future restructuring. That is the only reason I have acted as devil's advocate in this. Like fatalsaint, I don't want to put Reggie or my fellow moderators through this very often.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Then please list all the complaints you can think of regarding the forum's structure, and please be specific. I haven't noticed lots of complaints about the structure of the forum. Maybe I'm myopic.

Here's a start :): my complaints:

1. Threads about Diablo and pre-N900 devices (I'll call these collectively "Diablo-relevant") are lost in an undifferentiated sea overwhelmingly dominated by threads about N900/Fremantle

2. There is no way to view all (and only) the Diablo-relevant New Posts (or some other combination of New Posts, such as Diablo-relevant and Community)

3. There is no categorical way to determine if a thread about an application is Diablo-relevant or Fremantle-relevant, even though the two categories of software are incompatible. Sometimes you have to read into the thread a ways before you even know what OS it's for.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Then I'm confused, because to me ALL the complaints appear to be about structure--including yours. In that respect being specific misses the point (half kidding).

And I'm not meaning to be rude, but I'm all talked out on this for now. I'd rather see some useful brainstorming begin.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=428487

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Not taken as rude, just please list a few. Honestly, if you want to remedy "90 percent of the complaints," we have to know what they are. I have a specific problem I want solved. It's serious enough that I believe it has driven good people away, and I'm on the verge of leaving because of it. I really just don't get what problems you're trying to solve, and I need a list to understand your point.

People primarily complain that there are repetitive threads and that the OP should have joined an existing thread; or that lots of the posts are stupid -- I don't see these as structural problems.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Gerald, no offense, I don't see any value for me in harvesting and relisting what's already discussed in this thread-- which, please note, is titled "is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org". That forms the context of my comments. And please note, again, that my participation has been devil's advocacy-- I didn't start off proposing a restructuring but rather have been asking for a formal process as opposed to undirected complaints.

But granted not all of your own remarks point directly to restructuring-- but the ones that don't tend to be policy-oriented and that's a whole different issue than the OP started with.

If you're simply wanting more moderators and/or more moderation in action, there's another thread for that...

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=28675

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I think you might be missing some of our points. By saying that this discussion has taken place previously, is not saying that the OP should have searched and joined that discussion. This discussion is a "new" discussion of the current state of talk.maemo, where as older threads on this topic were of previous states of talk.maemo. So this was a perfectly fine new thread.

However, it's a new thread, about a topic that has occured before - and we have issued warnings about ways we have seen this develop before. Complete re-orgs are not easy, and constantly changing the website because users decide they don't like it anymore can get severely cumbersome for moderators and admins.

I have no seen anywhere Texrat say he doesn't want a re-org or wouldn't support one. In fact, my understanding of his posts are the exact opposite: He acknowledges a problem and would stand behind a fix that makes sense. What I don't see Tex doing is getting behind a "bandaid" solution that will just be changed in a few months anyway.

Simply changing the "new posts" to allowing what to select is a band-aid solution, for example. It address your primary problem, but not the overall problem as I see the forum. (and also, seeing the problem below, there is almost no feasible way to even implement this as is - that I can think).

Here's your specific example, as I have already said:

The categories and structure of this forum was done in a non top-level and hierarchical manner. Maybe Non-relational would be a better way to put it. What I mean by this, is that we have a "Software" section, for example. Beneath that "Software" section we have Multimedia, Games, and Applications.

Multimedia Apps for Diablo are Different than Fremantle, and 2006. But all we have is "multimedia". There is no way in the current configuration to show a relationship from an Application or "Software" to where it actually belongs (except through tags).

This is why in the layout I advocated we look at the most basic of what our devices are. In their simplest forms we have Hardware, and we have an Operating System. Those should be, IMHO, the root level categories.

Beneath these are pretty obvious, Hardware lists the different devices, Operating Systems will list the different Operating Systems.

Now, for something like "Software".. if there is a need for another category (I don't know how many sub-categories the forum can go) you would actually create several. You would have a Applications, Games, and Other - for example - beneath ALL the different Operating Systems. This shows, in some way, the relational aspect of the software, to it's OS - which is very key. So there will be several categories called "Applications" - one under Femantle, one under Diablo, etc.

Users would then only pay attention to their top-level category that they care about. I think this "relationship" is what Tex was referring to as dimensions (I could be wrong) - and no solution will cover all possible relationships between Software to OS to Hardware. I am in no way saying my idea is best, and I haven't put together or built a whole plan in utilizing it or providing a full example.. which is why I have not gone to the brainstorm.

This is just the problem as I see the current structure, and a possible solution... it's about as clear as I can make it, for me anyway.. so I will probably be posting less in this thread like Tex. I just don't think I can explain it any differently, unfortunately. So if I'm just not making any sense... I apologize.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

You said it better than I did fatalsaint. I've tried explaining my thoughts so many times, so many ways, I can see I've just contributed to the confusion while ironically trying to clear it up...

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

In the "old days" a member would make it clear in his initial post what device he is using and the OS. In addition his "signature" would include that info. If posting in "applications" he would also give the version number of the app that is in question. Is this too much to ask?

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

The only problem I see there Den is "new users" would not know to do that. They probably wouldn't even know what OS they are on, let alone know they are supposed to have a signature, and detail it in the post and title. It's just too prone to user error I guess. Even a sticky that says "READ ME NOW" is likely ignored by most people.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Is getting every single member of this forum to change their signature too much to ask? You tell me. :) It would be easier if our member profile contained fields for this information, but still you couldn't guarantee that people would fill them out. So maybe more relevant questions are: "Can we depend on it" or "Will it actually happen" or "Can we filter on it".

But I agree with Texrat, I think now is a good time to convert this discussion into Brainstorm mode. If we want a solution, we need to propose one and hammer it out.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Note that Gerald has added 1 solution to the new brainstorm. Understanding it will take time to develop good proposals, I'm eager nonetheless to see more.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Ok, maybe I'm too stupid to use brainstorm, but I cannot vote for individual solutions, only for the proposal.

Edit: nevermind, I found the wiki page. The "How to brainstorm" video fooled me :mad:

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

Luca, you're not stupid at all-- the process changed. Solutions cannot be voted on now until the problem itself gets 10 votes.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

for first time I've visited the forum this year and clicked "new posts", too hard to find stuff I'm interested in so barely bothered to read any, so only the threads I've previously subscribed to bring me back at all.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

And we miss you! :(

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

I don't...

Some things should be changed but the main thing have to be left unmodified.

The main structure of:
should be definitely kept

The way the forum gets restructured... I don't care, It's fine now, If you'll change it I'll get used to it.

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

aww, shucks.

I've been monitoring ebay prices - see my recent thread - and it seems the early adopter premium has faded - perhaps they'll be in reach before I succumb to MID or other tablet lust. Also we've had the bulk of insurance pay-out after we were burgled before Christmas (they stole my zaurus and a fancy radio whose replacement cost is a big chunk of an n900). Anwyay, I digress.

Paul

Re: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
 

well, I succumbed to UMPC lust and bought a Fujitsu U820/U2010, will be trying out moblin so who knows, when it all becomes meego then I'll be back :-)

p.s. if you want to contact me you'll have to PM me as I'm unsubscribing to various threads here except those specifically for the n800 (which I am keeping for a while). thanks to everyone in the community for the happy time I spent here, sorry to go but our paths are diverging for a while.