Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I'm sorry but, what the ****?

I don't think anybody currently involved in maemo development is taking OSS code and reworking it to be sold.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

It doesn't? Just in case the distinction is lost: you are perfectly able and allowed to publish outside Ovi if you don't like their terms.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Not that there is anything wrong with that, provided you include source when you sell it.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I can see, in the near future, an alternative (for profit) application store for maemo apps appearing.

Developer signs up (easily, free).
Users buy apps (from web, on device, wherever).
Developers get x%, app store gets 100-x%.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Exactly. There are tons of apps I could git clone or svn export that I would gladly pay somebody a dollar to five dollars to compile and send me the binary.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Sorry, I'm on vacation from this crummy site, but I have to return to ask a question about this.

Why is the liability insurance necessary? Why not ask the user to sign a liability WAIVER and if they won't sign the waiver, don't sell them the product?

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I'd really like to see something like Magnatune, where paying is encouraged but the user chooses the price.

Maybe the user could choose the price after they've had the app for a short time, so they know better if they really appreciate it or not. That would have to be an active process, where the user is prompted after that time, rather than a passive one which expects the user to remember and be bothered.

That might work even when the developer chooses to include source - i.e. proper commercial open source - because the user is directed to make an active decision about whether and how much to pay, even though they are free to decide "none", or copy the program from elsewhere.

What do you think?

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I think that's a damn good idea!

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

In general you can't do that with public liability, because every company would do it (in the small print as part of every signed contract), and that would defeat the point of public liability, which is public protection from dangerous products and services.

Same with employees: they can't waive their right to be treated safely. Otherwise lots of people would, just to get a job, and that would put people in danger which liability is there to reduce.

Well, you can sign a waiver, of course, but it doesn't stop you from suing someone who harms you anyway, and winning. It may suggest informed consent, perhaps, in some circumstances.

But if you notice, this thread was started about the Ovi Store and liability regarding copyright infringement claims in particular.

Those claims aren't brought by the customer; they are brought by third parties. I don't see the claimants (the third parties) signing any waivers in those cases :-)

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I still don't get why/how this wasn't resolved before actually shipping the device.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

It was resolved to do it exactly the way they are doing it wasn't it?

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Depending on your line of work, it may well be cheap. Not so much if you're a tree trimmer or you hang steel girders, but for most trades it's not too bad. Call an independent business insurance agent. They can probably get back to you with a quote in under an hour.

It's an absolutely ridiculous requirement, though!

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

The same reason lots of other things aren't resolved on it.
(Like 3 USIMs working, Nokia native FM receiver, and portrait mode browsing, for example).

Because if they waited until their Ovi department had everything ready, we'd be complaining even louder at how long it's taking to ship the devices!

Never underestimate just how long it takes to sort out something like Maemo-friendly Ovi, with all it's commercial and legal aspects, and massive cultural differences (i.e. inertia) from non-Maemo-friendly Ovi. Probably most of the people working on Ovi (by which I mean non-techies, mainly), still don't have a clue about open source, and there's just a few people trying to spread the point.

Apple made it look like setting up an app store was easy, but they were planning it for years in advance. You just didn't see it happen out in the open.

Whereas the N900, Maemo 5 open source thing gives a great impression of being rather a surprise to Nokia as a whole.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

a million dollar insurance policy doesn't cost that much i don't even pay $100 a year for mine

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I'm not sure they have actually shipped a device yet. :p But in any case, it won't be resolved before they actually do. I hope?

Frank

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I'm disappointed to see what code177 has discovered, and I'm still in favor of finding a creative solution, but Quim is right: there's only so much we can do here. Ovi is the policy setter, and Forum Nokia is surely a better place to drive policy change. That said, I do think it's useful to collect ideas here (and vent as well :D).

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

You all know there's nobody actually at forum nokia, right? The Publishing to Ovi forum is quieter than most door mice. I've asked plenty of questions over there and nobody has ever replied.

In my experience, at least, talking to Ovi Forum Nokia is more or less the same as talking to a wall.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Well... yeah. There is that.

I forgot to insert the word "theoretically". :o

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I fail to see the reason.

Not like they didn't know about this step 4 out of 5 years ago.

Never underestimate how bad this looks to a complete outsider. To have no way for a non-company entity to sell an application without a $1k+ investment before they write one line of code is a bit much.

And if the people in Ovi have no clue as to opensource, then they should have been educated some 3+ years ago with the advent of the 770.

I never mentioned Apple... but since you did, I'll bite.

Apple had years, right? So did Nokia. Reminder: step 4 out of 5.

Between Ovi and the repositories, it doesn't seem like opensource equates to a place where people may make money as well.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

In my jurisdiction, the total cost is more like $500.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

what about co-op company? or something like that.

aka splitting the tap for archieving ovi store requirements. no need to create duplicate marketplaces etc, and still every developer would have affordable (the more members, the more affordable....) way getting their software to ovi store.

just my 2 cents

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Car insurance is completely different. The general liability policies are cheaper because people and companies almost always have other insurance policies that cover the more common claims.

You know, auto liability insurance for when you crash into someone's house, or homeowner's insurance for when someone slips and falls on your icy sidewalk, that sort of thing.

This is why it's best to actually speak to people about theoretical problems rather than going off in a forum about it.

I don't like it much, but I can understand Nokia's lawyer's concerns. If you manage to slip some malware into the store, they don't want Nokia to be the ones on the hook for the damages when you don't carry liability insurance to make it right.

I think a coop would be a great idea. The vetting process might be annoying, though. You can't just let any geek off the street in, or you end up footing the bill for someone else's misdeeds. A referral system would be required, as would monthly or yearly dues, legal agreements, and god only knows what else.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I have had symbian smartphones (and geos before symbian) from Nokia for about ten years, and the Ovi store has come only in the last few months, in response to Apple and Iphone.

Before it, software has always been sold for smartphones, either from the developer's site, or by online shops like Handango. Some applications were luckier then others. Furthermore, I can assure you that each and every non-free application has been cracked and distributed by a huge number of forums throughout the world, in every language you can imagine. No certificate, no capability, no drm, nothing has ever stopped cracking in the symbian world.

So, don't stick to Ovi store, all this money isn't going to be worth spending. If your app is good you can sell it from your (humble) site via paypal, and word-of-mouth will be enough to make it popular. Just be prepared to the fact that it will be pirated because human nature works this way.

Just my 2eurocents.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I can buy domain/and web-host and open up a store for the community if you guys help me out and willing to go forward with it.. :)

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

We have 5 million cover due to working on financial systems and other issues. Quotes from several companies for 1 million cover were all around the £150 a year and obviously tax deductable on the corporate side. This included employer liability insurance and £5K offsite equipment loss/damage cover.

Hope that helps some but obviously US insurance requirements are likely to be different.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Ok that is cheap.

Once I have my business numbers, etc. I will get some quotes and we'll see what the next roadblock nokia throws at me is (wish that was a joke).

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

The easiest and most obvious solution can be summarized in one word: Cydia.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

This thing is over. N900 does not have a chance, no apps , no growth, no customers. And that makes me sad. I was really hoping the N900 was going to be some thing special. Ovi is already a joke. Could they make it any harder?? All I have been hearing from the Maemo world is how Apple and the app store suck because of all the restrictions and approval requirements. Does Nokia not see what is going on in the world. They watched every mistake Apple made with the iPhone and the app store and learned absolutely nothing. They are repeating them X 2. Pitty.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

In some countries there are certain rights that cannot be waived even if signed away for a start.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I have to disagree.

They resolve this, or turn a portion of the repository into a paid app/paid distribution platform and they have their solution for corporations (Ovi) and opensource (Maemo repositories) and paid for apps outside of the aforementioned two.

There's a lot of reasons why this wasn't resolved yet (I don't know them, but extremely curious) but even I have hope it will be resolved soon.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

When Nokia starts to deny apps from Ovi Store because they're competing with Nokia's own apps, I'll say they're repeating Apple mistakes. Could you please specify what mistakes Nokia is repeating?

IMO Nokia's approach cuts all the tiny applications from store - hopefully it filters out some bad quality also. Apple is doing this by reviewing the applications, and doing some questionable filtering there. Don't get me wrong, Nokia needs to provide also a store for these tiny utility/eye candy applications, or then someone else is going to do that.

P.S. Seriously, this forum needs some karma/voting system. People are bloating these topics without even thinking what they're saying.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

A co-op company was about where I was thinking.

Can't the community set up a co-op company, and ask sponsors to put up the initial set-up fees including insurance? It would only need one insurance for the team.

Then developers buy in to the co-op (at a small annual fee). The co-op takes responsibility for making sure that apps are properly tested and as safe as possible (the community already does that bit) and publishes to Ovi. The monies received from Ovi get sent back to the developer.

Is that a non-starter?

While I'm all for 'open source' meaning anyone can publish from anywhere, the reality is the Ovi store is where people look. Take a look at any of the reviews appearing now: they are only looking at Ovi... not even maemo-extras before they start *****ing abou the lack of apps. People need presence there.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

It is easier to set up a third party application store. At the end of a day, it is just a website + payment processing infrastructure. If Ovi Store management is bent on not accepting any applications, then so be it. Won't be the first failed app store from Nokia.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

For Nokia's sake this should be just the first step. I don't see why they wouldn't want the money from the small applications that Apple is collecting all the time. Maybe when the next generation Maemo devices come available... If I've understood correctly, Apple app store payment methods include AT&T phone bill. IMO this is vital to make buying the cheap stuff as easy as possible. Nokia has not been able to make this kind of a deal in the U.S.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Yes, it might be easier. But for Bears of very little brain, Ovi is what they will find. Many people will never make it out beyond that, so they won't find the apps and the devs won't reach them.

Added to which, it's not 'just a website'. The whole point of the problem is that they make sure that apps are underpinned with insurance etc. If you wanted to set up a website to sell other people's apps, you'd need either watertight disclaimers or your own insurance. Indeed, we had a long discussion about how to word the warnings and disclaimers on the extras-developers page - and that was for free software!

What Nokia is doing is not recognising that devs from here will be offering apps that have been fully tested as far as possible. Fred Bloggs writes an app: he offers it to Apple and they test it thoroughly to make sure there are no problems. Then they deduct half his price for this privilege. He offers it to Nokia and they [i]don't[i] test it: they make sure that he's got insurance in case it all goes tits up.

Apps from here will have all been tested. In fact, there's no reason why we couldn't train and accredit a bank of "app testers" to try to limit the risk. (Effectively we already have them - ourselves). That's the bit Ovi is missing. We have to show them - creating a co-op would be one way of doing that.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

That’s right. If OVI store wants to work this way put your programs on maemo.org.
It’s really a shame to only have 54 applications on the release date. Plus you can some paypal for donations on your app. Let’s keep the open source spirit and start work for the repository.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

fyi I have been forwarding and summarizing the main points of this and the previous thread to the relevant people in the Maemo, Forum Nokia and Ovi teams.

Maemo apps submitted to the Ovi store will go through a testing process! Legal requirements and testing requirements are totally different things, one doesn't exclude the other.

About Nokia recognising or not the work done by developers from here, I hope your measures are not done looking only at Ovi. Nokia is making a very significant investment and bet with maemo.org, including Downloads & the Extras repositories.


Apps from here will have all been tested. In fact, there's no reason why we couldn't train and accredit a bank of "app testers" to try to limit the risk. (Effectively we already have them - ourselves). That's the bit Ovi is missing. We have to show them - creating a co-op would be one way of doing that.[/QUOTE]

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Thank You!

Hopefully, the decision making process won't take months, because then it would be too late.
This has to be resolved now, else many small scale developers will look elsewhere or start their own repositories, and Ovi will remain stillborn. Maemo 5/N900 is the chance for Ovi to establish itself, and this chance diminishes every day.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

Oh, Bears do have mouths and ears, and I would not underestimate the importance of the word of mouth. Whoever wants new apps for their devices, will find them outside of Ovi. Having an app store gateway preinstalled on the device is surely important, but don't overrate it.

Of course. What a lot of business people are missing here though, is that the absolute majority of customers will prefer a choice of 1000 uninsured apps to the choice of 10 insured apps. And, again, the word of mouth (facilitated by ability to comment on each app) does wonders here.

Re: Confirmed/CAUTION: N900 Ovi Apps require Corporation + $1M USD Corporate General Liability Insurace
 

I haven't read the already long thread, but I do recall a dinner with Jussi here in London during the OneDotZero event where he asked us (community, me, Sebastian, Gary and Simon) what did we think about commercial applications on the Ovi Store.

I guess he wouldn't ask for our feedback if their intent is to only let big corporation publish on the Ovi Store.